Common ground

[lforrest]

What example of the dove are you referring to?

The one from my post.

 

[StanJ]

The one from my post.

Come on forrest, stop playing games. What scripture were you referring to that depicted doves?

 

[lforrest]

Come on forrest, stop playing games. What scripture were you referring to that depicted doves?

It wasn't a scripture, It was an example of what elaborating on the details would sound like in a parable. Sorry I thought that was clear.

 

[StanJ]

It wasn't a scripture, It was an example of what elaborating on the details would sound like in a parable. Sorry I thought that was clear.

No, it was not, which is why I've kept asking. I guess we can just move on now?

 

[Angelina]

Well it kinda reminds me of which came first, the chicken or the egg. ~ The bible says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Romans 3: 22, 23, 24. ~ So we have all began in the same position, as sinners. We know that the gospel will be preached to all nations. Matthew 24:14, Mark 13:10, Luke 24:46-47, 1 Timothy 3:16 ~ but not all will receive it

Angelina,

In my understanding, it is much clearer than that.The verses I gave in John 6:37, 44, 65 make it clear that unless the Father draws a person, there will will no salvation. There will be no 'egg' of salvation without the heavenly Father drawing a person to salvation.

Oz

This is a very interesting topic. I can recall asking one of our leaders and someone whom I would consider a spiritual father about this issue. I asked whether we can choose to accept Jesus as our Lord and savior or whether we are predestined to do so. He said that he did not know however, "One day we will stand in front of those pearly gates and perhaps we will see a sign at the front
that reads 'Whoever is wills, enter' on the other side of those gates, we may see another sign which says 'Predestined from the foundation of the world" I like that analogy and I believe that although we may find ourselves in the position of asking "What do we do with this man Jesus" God knows the decision we will make beforehand.

In a sense I believe in both positions, that man can make the decision to accept Christ via his own free will and that all mankind has that opportunity in their lifetime. I also believe in predestination. I would like to accentuate the fact that when the gospel is preached by the mouth of a born-again believer, a seed is planted in the heart of the hearer. When that seed is planted in good soil, it will produce.That seed is a combination of the word of truth mixed with the power of the Holy Spirit. It is this that convicts the heart/conscience and the hearer will respond accordingly.
See the parable of the sower ~ http://www.christianityboard.com/blog/84/entry-664-the-sower/

 

[StanJ]

In a sense I believe in both positions, that man can make the decision to accept Christ via his own free will and that all mankind has that opportunity in their lifetime. I also believe in predestination. I would like to accentuate the fact that when the gospel is preached by the mouth of a born-again believer, a seed is planted in the heart of the hearer. When that seed is planted in good soil, it will produce.That seed is a combination of the word of truth mixed with the power of the Holy Spirit. It is this that convicts the heart/conscience and the hearer will respond accordingly.

This is what Paul teaches in Rom 8:28-30
Predestination is only taught in the New Testament in terms of a person being in Christ never a person being predestined to confess Christ.

 

[Angelina]

This is what Paul teaches in Rom 8:28-30
Predestination is only taught in the New Testament in terms of a person being in Christ never a person being predestined to confess Christ.

This may be the point of contention. A person being in Christ, must first confess Christ. However, I believe that the predestined ones are those whom God chose beforehand for the fulfillment of his purpose. ie: his Apostles.

Paul says ~
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:11

Then, I believe, comes the rest of us ~

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

So I believe in both predestination and the fact that man can make the decision to accept Christ via his own free will and all mankind has the same opportunity in their lifetime to receive or reject his message. JMHO

 

[StanJ]

This may be the point of contention. A person being in Christ, must first confess Christ. However, I believe that the predestined ones are those whom God chose beforehand for the fulfillment of his purpose. ie: his Apostles.

Paul says ~
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:11

Then, I believe, comes the rest of us ~

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

So I believe in both predestination and the fact that man can make the decision to accept Christ via his own free will and all mankind has the same opportunity in their lifetime to receive or reject his message. JMHO [/SIZE] [/size]

Yes, I agree. A person can only be in Christ, if they have confessed him as their Savior. What Paul is saying here in Ephesians 1 is that those that are in him where chosen, not chosen to be in him. This is the distinction one has to make, otherwise sovereign election is being advocated.
The apostles were indeed chosen by the father for the son, and it was he who taught them who he was, ie the Messiah. Subsequent to that, their paths we're definitely predestined, as was Jesus'. Course chosen does not necessarily mean that they had to accept or were destined to accept Jesus is calling on their lives. They chose to, just as God chose to use them. He also chose Judas, which means he knew what Judas would do. IMHO, that does not mean Judas did not have a choice.

 

[OzSpen]

This is a very interesting topic. I can recall asking one of our leaders and someone whom I would consider a spiritual father about this issue. I asked whether we can choose to accept Jesus as our Lord and savior or whether we are predestined to do so. He said that he did not know however, "One day we will stand in front of those pearly gates and perhaps we will see a sign at the front
that reads 'Whoever is wills, enter' on the other side of those gates, we may see another sign which says 'Predestined from the foundation of the world" I like that analogy and I believe that although we may find ourselves in the position of asking "What do we do with this man Jesus" God knows the decision we will make beforehand.

In a sense I believe in both positions, that man can make the decision to accept Christ via his own free will and that all mankind has that opportunity in their lifetime. I also believe in predestination. I would like to accentuate the fact that when the gospel is preached by the mouth of a born-again believer, a seed is planted in the heart of the hearer. When that seed is planted in good soil, it will produce.That seed is a combination of the word of truth mixed with the power of the Holy Spirit. It is this that convicts the heart/conscience and the hearer will respond accordingly.
See the parable of the sower ~ http://www.christianityboard.com/blog/84/entry-664-the-sower/

This is a very interesting topic. I can recall asking one of our leaders and someone whom I would consider a spiritual father about this issue. I asked whether we can choose to accept Jesus as our Lord and savior or whether we are predestined to do so. He said that he did not know however, "One day we will stand in front of those pearly gates and perhaps we will see a sign at the front
that reads 'Whoever is wills, enter' on the other side of those gates, we may see another sign which says 'Predestined from the foundation of the world" I like that analogy and I believe that although we may find ourselves in the position of asking "What do we do with this man Jesus" God knows the decision we will make beforehand.

In a sense I believe in both positions, that man can make the decision to accept Christ via his own free will and that all mankind has that opportunity in their lifetime. I also believe in predestination. I would like to accentuate the fact that when the gospel is preached by the mouth of a born-again believer, a seed is planted in the heart of the hearer. When that seed is planted in good soil, it will produce.That seed is a combination of the word of truth mixed with the power of the Holy Spirit. It is this that convicts the heart/conscience and the hearer will respond accordingly.
See the parable of the sower ~ http://www.christianityboard.com/blog/84/entry-664-the-sower/

Angelina,

The analogy given by your spiritual father is not original with him. I've heard that a few times over in the land Down Under as well.

However, your answer doesn't deal with the verses I gave from John 6.

 

[Angelina]

The analogy given by your spiritual father is not original with him. I've heard that a few times over in the land Down Under as well.

That may be so but it still answered alot for me . I think I may have answered that already...

 

[Angelina]

Yes, I agree. A person can only be in Christ, if they have confessed him as their Savior. What Paul is saying here in Ephesians 1 is that those that are in him where chosen, not chosen to be in him. This is the distinction one has to make, otherwise sovereign election is being advocated.
The apostles were indeed chosen by the father for the son, and it was he who taught them who he was, ie the Messiah. Subsequent to that, their paths we're definitely predestined, as was Jesus'. Course chosen does not necessarily mean that they had to accept or were destined to accept Jesus is calling on their lives. They chose to, just as God chose to use them. He also chose Judas, which means he knew what Judas would do. IMHO, that does not mean Judas did not have a choice.

That's kinda catch 22 situation...are you saying that those who are in Christ were those that were chosen already like myself who is in Christ? Rather then those who are pre-chosen yet have not yet received Christ? :huh: Isn't that the same position we were in before being in Christ???

 

[StanJ]

That's kinda catch 22 situation...are you saying that those who are in Christ were those that were chosen already like myself who is in Christ? Rather then those who are pre-chosen yet have not yet received Christ? :huh: Isn't that the same position we were in before being in Christ???

No, I'm saying that those who are in Christ, choose Christ. They are not predestined to choose him, they do so out of faith and belief. Nobody's pre chosen to believe, even the apostles already believed before they were chosen. They were all God fearing law abiding Jews. What we are before Christ are sinners not saved by grace. What we are after Christ are sinners saved by grace. I think the distinction is fairly clear. No?

 

[OzSpen]

No, I'm saying that those who are in Christ, choose Christ. They are not predestined to choose him, they do so out of faith and belief. Nobody's pre chosen to believe, even the apostles already believed before they were chosen. They were all God fearing law abiding Jews. What we are before Christ are sinners not saved by grace. What we are after Christ are sinners saved by grace. I think the distinction is fairly clear. No?

Therefore, Stan, that seems to make your beliefs Semi-Pelagian since you leave the initiative for salvation with human beings and not with God.

Here is a summary of Arminius's understanding on 'Foreknowledge and Predestination'. Arminius did believe in predestination, but of a different kind to that of Calvin on predestination.

So don't you believe in predestination of any kind?

Oz

 

[Deborah_]

Angelina,

The analogy given by your spiritual father is not original with him. I've heard that a few times over in the land Down Under as well.

However, your answer doesn't deal with the verses I gave from John 6.

I've also come across that analogy, attributed to Spurgeon.

Whoever first thought of it, it's a good way of showing how there is a tension between God's sovereignty and Man's free will. It's both/and, not either/or. And so it is worth passing on.

 

[OzSpen]

I've also come across that analogy, attributed to Spurgeon.

Whoever first thought of it, it's a good way of showing how there is a tension between God's sovereignty and Man's free will. It's both/and, not either/or. And so it is worth passing on.

Deborah,

Jesus made it clear that it was not human free will that made the initial drawing of people to himself. I don't think anything could be clearer than these verses in John 6:

• John 6:37 (ESV), 'All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out'.
• John 6:44 (ESV), 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day', and
• John 6:65 (ESV), 'And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father”'.

No human initiative will draw people to Jesus the Saviour, according to Jesus. Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws that person. That's why salvation is God-centred and not human-centred. Human-centred salvation is the mistake of semi-Pelagians. They think that human free will can say, 'yes' to Jesus. That's not the case according to Jesus Himself. See 'What are Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism?'

 

[Deborah_]

Deborah,

Jesus made it clear that it was not human free will that made the initial drawing of people to himself. I don't think anything could be clearer than these verses in John 6:

• John 6:37 (ESV), 'All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out'.
• John 6:44 (ESV), 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day', and
• John 6:65 (ESV), 'And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father”'.

No human initiative will draw people to Jesus the Saviour, according to Jesus. Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws that person. That's why salvation is God-centred and not human-centred. Human-centred salvation is the mistake of semi-Pelagians. They think that human free will can say, 'yes' to Jesus. That's not the case according to Jesus Himself. See 'What are Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism?'

I'm not suggesting that God's sovereignty does not play a part in our conversion - and I don't think that Spurgeon was either. It's a case of how it appears at the time.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not suggesting that God's sovereignty does not play a part in our conversion - and I don't think that Spurgeon was either. It's a case of how it appears at the time.

Those 3 verses from John 6 do not deal with 'how it appears at the time'. Jesus made it abundantly clear that if anyone wants to come to Jesus, it requires the drawing ministry of God the Father.

Which comes first? The Father's drawing or the human initiative in salvation? Jesus said that the initiative is with God the Father, not with frail, sinful human beings.

Oz

 

[Deborah_]

Those 3 verses from John 6 do not deal with 'how it appears at the time'. Jesus made it abundantly clear that if anyone wants to come to Jesus, it requires the drawing ministry of God the Father.

Which comes first? The Father's drawing or the human initiative in salvation? Jesus said that the initiative is with God the Father, not with frail, sinful human beings.

Oz

No, of course they don't.

I think what Spurgeon was getting at was this: From the 'outside', when we are unbelievers, it appears to be all free will. But we, now that we are believers, know that it isn't - because of verses like those you have quoted from John 6.

 

[Angelina]

No, I'm saying that those who are in Christ, choose Christ.

I agree with you on this point.

They are not predestined to choose him, they do so out of faith and belief. Nobody's pre chosen to believe, even the apostles already believed before they were chosen. They were all God fearing law abiding Jews. What we are before Christ are sinners not saved by grace. What we are after Christ are sinners saved by grace. I think the distinction is fairly clear. No?

You seem to be saying that every individual has a choice and yet predestination seems to point toward God's overall plan of Christ coming into the world to save the world through him. John 3:17. The details of how he does that is not always evident however the bible tells us that Jesus chose the twelve out of many disciples and they were the very ones [his Apostles] whom God gave to him for the purpose of fulfilling his plan. John 17:6, 7, 8 ~ even Judas, the son of perdition. John 6:70, John 17:12.

I still believe that the Apostles were actually predestined. Luke 6:13, Ephesians 2: 19-20, Revelation 21:14 but those after them [because the Apostles were sent out with authority to preached the gospel message to others] ~ believed out of faith in the word being preached as per my explanation in post #67. This explanation echo's again in John 17:6 when he prays for his disciples and then for all believers. John 17:20.

Bless ya!

 

[StanJ]

You seem to be saying that every individual has a choice and yet predestination seems to point toward God's overall plan of Christ coming into the world to save the world through him. John 3:17. The details of how he does that is not always evident however the bible tells us that Jesus chose the twelve out of many disciples and they were the very ones [his Apostles] whom God gave to him for the purpose of fulfilling his plan. John 17:6-8 ~ even Judas, the son of perdition. John 6:70, John 17:12.
I still believe that the Apostles were actually predestined. Luke 6:13, Ephesians 2: 19-20, Revelation 21:14 but those after them [because the Apostles were sent out with authority to preached the gospel message to others] ~ believed out of faith in the word being preached as per my explanation in post #67. This explanation echo's again in John 17 when he prays for his disciples vs 6 and then for all believers vs 20.

We are only predestined in the sense that we are to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Rom 8:29
NOBODY does everything the Holy Spirit leads us to do. Therefore, although God has a plan for our lives, because of us, it is filled with contingencies. Ultimately we will get there. The sad thing is that Romans 8:29 applies to all those who confess Jesus, even those that do fall away as Luke shows in Hebrews 6:4-6
God's plans have always been frustrated by the will of man. Sometimes we listen and obey, and sometimes we don't. The choice is always ours, which is why we are always responsible for where we end up. What a lot of people always fail to realize is that God is in control even though we have the free will to obey him or not.
The Bible says nothing about the apostles being predestined, all it says is that they were chosen to be His apostles and obviously their actions confirmed them being chosen, with the obvious exception of Judas. Billy Graham and Charles Templeton were both chosen/called to be evangelists and preach the Word of God. They were both successful as a team, but sadly one of them fell away into apostasy and the other became one of the greatest evangelists ever. I'm sure you know which was which?