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Communion vs Holy Communion

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by twinc, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. twinc

    twinc Well-Known Member

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    imho it is the extra special ingredient that makes mouldy old dough holy - twinc
     
  2. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    What ingredient would that be?

    Stranger
     
  3. twinc

    twinc Well-Known Member

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    it is in the bible at Jn6:51-56 - twinc
     
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  4. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    What is it that is that special ingredient ? What are you saying that (John 6:51-56) is saying?

    Stranger
     
  5. Wormwood

    Wormwood Chaps Staff Member

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    Well, I hope no one is eating moldy dough during communion. That's just gross.
     
  6. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    I don't eat anything in communion because I don't celebrate communion because it is Roman Catholic and I am not a Roman Catholic. Giving it another name does not alter the fact that it is Roman Catholic. Neither did Jesus or the New Testament Church take communion. They ate meals together where there was some different emphasis put on the bread and wine that was eaten as part of the meal.
     
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  7. Job

    Job Well-Known Member

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    You got a morbid sense of humor dude.
     
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  8. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Jesus commands us to partake in consuming His Body and Blood (Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24).
    How do you rationalize your way out of this?
     
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  9. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    Within 60 years following the Protestant Revolt, the confusion that followed is evidenced in Christopher Rasperger’s work published in 1577, 200 Interpretations of the Words: This is My Body. Therefore, it is not surprising to find that some contemporary Protestant apologists strive to explain away the clear meaning of the institution narratives.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2017
  10. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    Communion is used in relation to the breaking of the bread and the sipping of the wine. It is making it more than it is like "holy" communion that is a problem.

    1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

    We are only to do communion in remembrance of Him but the RCC says that is anathema to do it only for that. So they make the bread and the wine into a sacrament when there is nothing sacred about it. They even infer that Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine and thus saying that they are making the one time sacrifice for sin available again to receive "again" and that can never be because that is the same as sacrificing Him all over again on the cross when Catholics are receiving that same sacrifice again and again and again each Mass.

    But Protestants are in the same boat as some begin their communion with "We come into Christ's Presence today.." when they start communion and that is not true in according to our faith because He is in us and is with us always so there is no coming into His Presence in having communion and there is no going away from His Presence after communion. Our words should mean what they say in expressing our faith in Him at communion.

    And some Protestants believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine; how is that not making those things an idol? Christ is in us. There is no receiving Him again.

    2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    It is no wonder to me how some Protestants are looking more and more catholic every time I turn around.

    What did Jesus said about communion?

    Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

    What did Paul?

    1 Corinthians 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

    Remembering what He has done for us in having saved us by our believing in Him is remembering we have been saved by Him as the Holy Ghost is Witness within us that we are saved.

    Making communion other than that, even holy communion, is denying what we are remembering Him for as if we need to receive Him again, and we do not in according to our faith in Jesus Christ.
     
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  11. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Hello!

    I find your post very interesting. You say there is nothing sacred abut the bread and wine but you then later quote Luke where Jesus said the bread and wine IS His body and blood. Are you saying that the body and blood of Jesus is not sacred?

    Also you make it clear, and I agree with you, that Catholics and some of us Protestants believe it is sacred. However, you are leaving out the Orthodox Churches also. With that said it is clear that a majority of Christians belong to a church that believe it is sacred. Furthermore the Apostolic and Church Fathers said it was sacred which means for 2,000 years we have on record that Christians have been practicing this belief.

    Why are MOST Christians alive today wrong and you right? Why were the Apostolic Fathers who walked with the Apostles and Church Fathers wrong and you right?

    Curious Mary
     
  12. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Hi marksman!

    How do you interpret 1 Corinthians 10:16?

    Curious Mary
     
  13. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    The body & blood of Jesus is sacred; the bread and the wine is not. They are only symbolic of the body and blood, but not THE body and blood to be considered the real thing nor sacred. To do so is to make them idols.

    The Catholic Church did not follow after the tradition as taught plainly in the epistles to the early churches, but added to it, making it more than what has been taught to do for communion. Scripture even warned against those additions for which they are doing communion for. Protestants stemming from that, have carried some of those additions over without fully reproving all of them to stand apart from that iniquity of the add ons.

    The problem that bothers me in the Protestant churches is how communion service begins with "We come into His Presence today", and yet Jesus warned about how bad it will be in the latter days before He comes as the Bridegroom.

    Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

    Believers that have eaten and drunken "supposedly" in His Presence at communion can certainly be saying that when they get left behind. They really need to repent and stop believing they are coming into His Presence by that work of iniquity of using communion in that way, since He has been in them since they had been saved and will always abide in them, even if and when they get left behind at the pre trib rapture event for not repenting.

    Any iniquity that denies Him, they will be denied. Thinking they are coming to Him by way of communion is not how any one is coming to God the Father at all. Jesus is the only way to come to God the Father any where; not by communion. So strive thru the straight gate; Jesus Christ, for He is in us and is with us always since we had been saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

    So taking communion in an unworthy manner definitely includes treating the bread & wine as idols and as a means of coming into His Presence and even receiving His Presence by eating and drinking the sacraments, when there is no receiving Him again, let alone, making the sacrifice for sins being made present to receive "again" as if the first time they had received this at their salvation by believing in Him was not good enough.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

    Nobody should be taking communion as a means to receive remission of sins or receiving Him again when salvation has been received as He was.
     
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  14. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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  15. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    The body & blood of Jesus is sacred; the bread and the wine is not. They are only symbolic of the body and blood, but not THE body and blood to be considered the real thing nor sacred. To do so is to make them idols.

    The fact that this was before His crucifixion, it cannot be anything else but symbolic. What? Did Jesus say "Ouch" every time they took a bite out of the bread?

    The Catholic Church did not follow after the tradition as taught plainly in the epistles to the early churches, but added to it, making it more than what has been taught to do for communion. Scripture even warned against those additions for which they are doing communion for. Protestants stemming from that, have carried some of those additions over without fully reproving all of them to stand apart from that iniquity of the add ons.



    Nope. Scripture has warned Ignatius and others when they had departed from scripture when they made the bread & the wine an idol, treating them as the real thing. Paul warned against this and yet you and most christians fail to apply what makes an item an idol which is by treating it as the real thing.

    1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

    Really think we are more powerful than God to make the one time sacrifice for sins "present" again to be received "again"?




    Signs of the times in these latter days when the falling away from the faith has happened whereas only a few find it. Jesus prophesied how bad it will be.

    Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
     
  16. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    no one is going to argue "do this in remembrance of Me", but if my memory serves isn't it Catholicism that teaches that what is called the Eucharist, is the actual presence of the Lord?

    and since this mentioned, it is true that the blood is the life of the body, then what is the life of the spirit?
     
  17. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Dear JIF,

    I am still trying to figure out if you are being serious or you really believe what you are saying. He said DO THIS IN MEMORYOF ME! That means AFTER the crucifixion. You have read this haven't you?? Do you do this in memory of Him like he asked?

    So Ignatious, who was taught by and Apostle, departed from scripture but YOU are sticking to scripture? Once again; are you being serious or just trying to push my buttons??

    I don't understand your "more powerful than God" question.

    Once again; How do you know YOU are not the one who is "falling away from the faith"? Especially since your theory is not biblical and opposite of 2,000 years of Christian teaching? Your theory started about 500 years ago. You believe the men that came up with your theory are right but you don't believe Ignatious? Truly bizarre.

    Mary
     
  18. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    In 1 Corinthians 11:27-30, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those who take this lightly: “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”

    This is pretty harsh language for something that Protestants claim is only a symbol.

    This directly correlates to the Bread of Life discourse in John 6, where Jesus stated in no uncertain terms:
    “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
    Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”


    It is interesting to note that the usual Greek word used for human eating is “phagon”, however, this is not the word used in these passages. St. John uses the word, “trogon”, which means, to munch or to gnaw - like an animal eats. Jesus was again using hyperbole as he often did to drive his point across so that the crowd would understand that he was not speaking metaphorically. He meant what he said.
    Just as the Paschal Lamb was to be eaten, it is also true for the Lamb of God.

    In verse 60, his disciples said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"

    Did Jesus explain what he "really" meant? No, he said:
    "Does this shock you?"


    He knew that some would not believe because they didn't have true faith from the Father. Here, Jesus is telling them that unless we are drawn to him by the Father, we cannot possibly understand him. This is why his followers abandoned him and returned to their former way of life in verse 66. This verse says, “As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.”

    This marks the only time in Scripture where Jesus' disciples left him for doctrinal reasons. They simply couldn't handle what Jesus was telling them.

    It is also important to note what happened after this. Did Jesus plead with them or explain that he was speaking “metaphorically” or “symbolically”? NO. He turned to the Apostles and said, "Do you also want to leave?" Here it is completely evident - except to those who refuse to see - that Jesus meant what he said.
     
  19. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    Meant spiritually, yes. Since He obviously did not hack off one of His arms or whatever for everyone to eat at the Last Supper.
     
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  20. JesusIsFaithful

    JesusIsFaithful Well-Known Member

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    Feel free to explain how the sacraments are not idols when they believe Christ's Presence is in them.

    And for this "more powerful than God" phrase...

    Catholic priests has to be celibate to perform the Mass; it is a necessary requirement to be able to perform the Mass; otherwise they can only serve communion. Being celibate gives them this power to have Christ "voluntary" come down and present Himself again in that one time sacrifice for sins to be "received" again. If that does not give this appearance at all, then why married priests can only perform communion?

    And for the Protestants to mimic such wordings and beliefs that Christ's Presence is in the sacraments, how can it NOT be an idol for what Paul was speaking against for doing in communion?
     
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