Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[jeffweeder]

That really doesn't matter....

It does matter because righteous Noah knew judgment day was coming that would take all life.
They way to survive was to spend years building a ship to save his family and the animals.

This is also the nature of the day of the coming of the Son of man.


2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);


This obviously happens after the tribulation period.
Our gathering and glorification therefore cannot happen before the tribulation period. It occurs on the Last Day as Jesus made clear.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It starts off with...1Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion,

I see that associated with Zech 14:3Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east,

I believe this is post trib...where Jesus returns at the physical 2nd coming.

It literally can not be.

In order for that theory to work, the Bible would need to NOT DESCRIBE those 2 events.
There is no way Jesus sitting on a cloud, holding a sickle, is the same thing, as the second coming, with Jesus as a warrior (WITH NO SICKLE) And a billion man army on billions of white horses blackening the sky.
Rev 19 and mat 24 are the ONLY places Jesus comes in power and great glory
Rev 14 :14 has THE OPPOSITE description.

Plus the firstfruits is way way off.
The Jews firstfriuts is the 144,000 gathered in Rev 1-5.
The churches firstfruits is Jesus.

In no way are those 2 events one.
100% impossible.

 

[CrowCross]

It does matter because righteous Noah knew judgment day was coming that would take all life.
They way to survive was to spend years building a ship to save his family and the animals.

This is also the nature of the day of the coming of the Son of man.


2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day


Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);


This obviously happens after the tribulation period.
Our gathering and glorification therefore cannot happen before the tribulation period. It occurs on the Last Day as Jesus made clear.

Will you please address the social economical condition Jesus spoke of and tell me how that will be the conditions at the end of the tribulation?

 

[CrowCross]

It literally can not be.

In order for that theory to work, the Bible would need to NOT DESCRIBE those 2 events.
There is no way Jesus sitting on a cloud, holding a sickle, is the same thing, as the second coming, with Jesus as a warrior (WITH NO SICKLE) And a billion man army on billions of white horses blackening the sky.
Rev 19 and mat 24 are the ONLY places Jesus comes in power and great glory
Rev 14 :14 has THE OPPOSITE description.

Plus the firstfruits is way way off.
The Jews firstfriuts is the 144,000 gathered in Rev 1-5.
The churches firstfruits is Jesus.

In no way are those 2 events one.
100% impossible.

You said..."There is no way Jesus sitting on a cloud, holding a sickle, is the same thing, as the second coming, with Jesus as a warrior"....you have a good point.,,sort of... Rev 19 doesn't speak of a sickle...it does speak of a winepress in Rev 19.. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty

How do you explain this....20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.

 

[PinSeeker]

Will you please address the social economical condition Jesus spoke of and tell me how that will be the conditions at the end of the tribulation?

It was the... state of things... how unbelievers were living... then, now, and up to the end of this current age. Jesus will bring all that to an end when He returns. Goodness gracious.

Grace and peace.

 

[PinSeeker]

Repost:

There is only one second coming.

It is a terrible misreading of Revelation to think everything mentioned is strictly chronologically sequential. What John is given is not just one vision but seven concurrent visions ~ each one spanning the same time period. Jesus's return and the second resurrection is "led up to," or approached, but stopped short of, in the first five:

• Revelation 14 (the third vision) stops short of mentioning the resurrection, as does Revelation 19 (the sixth).
• Revelation 14 (again, the third vision) actually stops short of the actual return of Jesus, describing it as about to happen
• Only in Revelation 19 (the sixth) and Revelation 20 (the seventh) do we actually see the return of Jesus; we all agree on Revelation 19:11-21, but Jesus's return is seen again in Revelation 20, specifically in Revelation 20:9... He is the "fire coming down from heaven and consuming the devil, beast and false prophet." And in the same way Jesus is not literally a fire, not literally a flame, in Revelation 20:9, He is not literally riding a white horse and does not literally have eyes are like a flame of fire and not wearing on His head many diadems in Revelation 19:11-12. These are all shocking images that tell us that when He does come/return... in His one second coming... He will come in purity, in triumph, in final conquest and victory, in rescue... and in judgment.
  • Revelation 14:14 does the same thing, by the way; seated on a white cloud with a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in his hand... again, shocking images that tell us that when He does come/return... in His one second coming... He will come in purity, in triumph, in final conquest and victory, in rescue... and in judgment.
• And only in Revelation 20 do we actually "see" the second resurrection; when we get to Revelation 20:11, the second resurrection has just occurred, and all are standing before Jesus, Who then issues the final judgment ~ so the only one of the seven visions where we actually "see" the second resurrection and the final judgment... and then the coming of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21:1-8.

Again... such a wooden understanding of the white horses in Revelation 19... There are no actual white horses involved. The white horses in Revelation 19 convey Jesus's coming with the armies of heaven in purity, final conquest, rescue, and victory/triumph.

And as I said previously, there is no "rapture" in the sense of any of us being "removed," or taken anywhere. The only ones actually departing, at that point, will be unbelievers, the unrepentant, the wicked... just like in the days of Noah, and just like in the days of Lot, It is they who will, as a result of the final judgment and Jesus's command, depart into eternal punishment, away from the new heaven and new earth, which is the second death.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[CrowCross]

It was the... state of things... how unbelievers were living... then, now, and up to the end of this current age. Jesus will bring all that to an end when He returns. Goodness gracious.

Grace and peace.

Yes, this is pre-trib views.

Besides unbelievers in todays time it also is the way believers are living.
This current age will end with the rapture and removal of the restrainer.

 

[CrowCross]

Repost:

There is only one second coming.

No, that isn't true.

It is a terrible misreading of Revelation to think everything mentioned is strictly chronologically sequential. What John is given is not just one vision but seven concurrent visions ~ each one spanning the same time period. Jesus's return and the second resurrection is "led up to," or approached, but stopped short of, in the first five:

• Revelation 14 (the third vision) stops short of mentioning the resurrection, as does Revelation 19 (the sixth).
• Revelation 14 (again, the third vision) actually stops short of the actual return of Jesus, describing it as about to happen
• Only in Revelation 19 (the sixth) and Revelation 20 (the seventh) do we actually see the return of Jesus; we all agree on Revelation 19:11-21, but Jesus's return is seen again in Revelation 20, specifically in Revelation 20:9... He is the "fire coming down from heaven and consuming the devil, beast and false prophet." And in the same way Jesus is not literally a fire, not literally a flame, in Revelation 20:9, He is not literally riding a white horse and does not literally have eyes are like a flame of fire and not wearing on His head many diadems in Revelation 19:11-12. These are all shocking images that tell us that when He does come/return... in His one second coming... He will come in purity, in triumph, in final conquest and victory, in rescue... and in judgment.
  • Revelation 14:14 does the same thing, by the way; seated on a white cloud with a golden crown on His head, and a sharp sickle in his hand... again, shocking images that tell us that when He does come/return... in His one second coming... He will come in purity, in triumph, in final conquest and victory, in rescue... and in judgment.
• And only in Revelation 20 do we actually "see" the second resurrection; when we get to Revelation 20:11, the second resurrection has just occurred, and all are standing before Jesus, Who then issues the final judgment ~ so the only one of the seven visions where we actually "see" the second resurrection and the final judgment... and then the coming of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21:1-8.

Again... such a wooden understanding of the white horses in Revelation 19... There are no actual white horses involved. The white horses in Revelation 19 convey Jesus's coming with the armies of heaven in purity, final conquest, rescue, and victory/triumph.

And as I said previously, there is no "rapture" in the sense of any of us being "removed," or taken anywhere. The only ones actually departing, at that point, will be unbelievers, the unrepentant, the wicked... just like in the days of Noah, and just like in the days of Lot, It is they who will, as a result of the final judgment and Jesus's command, depart into eternal punishment, away from the new heaven and new earth, which is the second death.

Grace and peace to all.

Well you said a lot...for some it might even sound good....but if you look closer...especially in Acts 1...it doesn't present a return such as likened to Jesus ascension. That's the problem you must solve to eliminate a one return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation speculation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You said..."There is no way Jesus sitting on a cloud, holding a sickle, is the same thing, as the second coming, with Jesus as a warrior"....you have a good point.,,sort of... Rev 19 doesn't speak of a sickle...it does speak of a winepress in Rev 19.. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty

How do you explain this....20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.

That is what will happen.
It may take a few years or months from the rev14: 14 garhering.

Rev 14 has 3 events.
3 separate events.

Nothing is said of the timetable separation of the 3.
However main harvest usually happens quickly after firstfruits.

No telling the exact timing of the winepress thingy.

 

[ewq1938]

You said..."There is no way Jesus sitting on a cloud, holding a sickle, is the same thing, as the second coming, with Jesus as a warrior"....you have a good point.,,sort of... Rev 19 doesn't speak of a sickle...it does speak of a winepress in Rev 19.. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty

The other issue is that the appearance of Jesus in Rev 19 is AFTER the rapture so naturally there would not be any gathering/sickle language there.

 

[PinSeeker]

No, that isn't true.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, no one is depriving you of that, CC.

Well you said a lot...for some it might even sound good...

<chuckles>

.but if you look closer...especially in Acts 1...it doesn't present a return such as likened to Jesus ascension.

Actually it does, if only in the sense that, as the angel says in Acts 1, He will return exactly the way he left. So, other than that He will come down out of the sky -- which will be an extraordinary spectacle, for sure -- it will otherwise be fairly ordinary looking... no sickle, or white horses, or eyes of flaming fire, no sharp sword coming out of His mouth, no diadems on His head... <smile> But he will come in purity and final victory, and to execute the final judgment.

That's the problem you must solve to eliminate a one return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation speculation.

Yeah, so... see above... there is no "problem." At least not on my end of this conversation.

And no one (I hope) is "eliminating" a single return at the end of the period of tribulation. This is the case. There is no Biblical warrant for the idea that Jesus will return, then leave again, and then return again some time later. The problem is that there are folks here saying, basically, that He will return ~ and remove a number of folks... <chuckles> ~ and then return again after another period of tribulation... that's the... well, problem... <smile> There is no need for... more than one end. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

That is what will happen.
It may take a few years or months from the rev14: 14 garhering.

Rev 14 has 3 events.
3 separate events.

Nothing is said of the timetable separation of the 3.
However main harvest usually happens quickly after firstfruits.

No telling the exact timing of the winepress thingy.

"The winepress thingy." I gotta remember that one... <chuckles>

What is the function of a winepress, Rebuilder? A winepress is a device used to extract juice from crushed grapes during winemaking, right? This is an image of the final judgment. The Lord will remove us... in a certain way... In this terrible image... the winepress being trodden outside the city and blood flowing from the winepress, this is equivalent to the second death, which only the unrepentant are subject to as a result of the final judgment. More on that in a moment...

Revelation 14:14-20 depicts the second coming as the harvest over which the Son of Man presides (Matt. 13:36-43; Joel 3:12-16). Two harvests are described, grain (14:14-16) and grapes (14:17-20). The grain harvest is the harvest of the righteous (Luke 3:17), followed by the harvest of the wicked in Revelation 14:17-20. This is equivalent to what Jesus says in John 5:28:29, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." The main background is the picture of final divine harvest in Joel 3:12-16. In Joel grain is harvested with a sickle, and grapes are trampled in the winepress; both carry the primary connotation of punishment.

So... in Revelation specific connotations of punishment come only with the second, grape harvest, "thrown into the great winepress of God’s wrath" (Revelation 14:19) ~ which is equivalent to "the rest slain by the sword that came from the mouth of Him Who was sitting on the horse" (Revelation 19:21) and also equivalent to "those whose name is not found written in the book of life being thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:15). Also equivalent to Revelation 14:19, 19:21, and 20:15 are each of the following:

• Jesus Himself says in Matthew 3:12, "the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire"...
• ...and in Matthew 7:23, "And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness’"...
• ...and in Matthew 13:40-41, "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace"...
• ...and in Matthew 25:46, "And these..." (the goats, those on His left) will go away into eternal punishment"...
• ...and in Mark 9:47-48, where Jesus's implication is that some will be "thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched’"
• ...and Luke 3:17, Jesus will "clear His threshing floor and to gather the wheat into His barn, but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire."

<shudder>

Grace and peace to all.

 

[David in NJ]

Will you please address the social economical condition Jesus spoke of and tell me how that will be the conditions at the end of the tribulation?

Red Herring

 

[David in NJ]

Have fun with those who oppose.......

 

[CrowCross]

The other issue is that the appearance of Jesus in Rev 19 is AFTER the rapture so naturally there would not be any gathering/sickle language there.

This even could be Rev 20:11-15.

It could be the battle of battle of Armageddon.

It could be the Gog and Magog war of Rev 20:8.

 

[ewq1938]

This even could be Rev 20:11-15.

It could be the battle of battle of Armageddon.

It could be the Gog and Magog war of Rev 20:8.

No, the battle of Armageddon is not the same battle of Jerusalem.

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Armageddon is a place where a wicked army is gathered for a special battle. This is not involving Gog and Magog. The battle is recorded in Rev 19:

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

So, the war of Armageddon happens at the second coming.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is a different "war" that happens long after Armageddon and happens in a completely different place. The way this army is destroyed is completely different than the army at Armageddon as well.

Armageddon: at the second coming, before the thousand years begins, Jesus kills the beasts army with the sword of his mouth and birds eat the dead, beast and false prophet cast into the LOF.

Outside of Jerusalem and the camp of the saints: long after the second coming, after the thousand years has ended, God the Father in heaven kills the army of Gog and Magog with fire, no birds eating the dead, Jesus and his army not involved in this "war", Satan cast into the LOF, the beast and false prophet are already in the LOF showing the war of Armageddon happened already and is a past event.

 

[jeffweeder]

Will you please address the social economical condition Jesus spoke of and tell me how that will be the conditions at the end of the tribulation?

My whole post 201 tells you.

Once you understand its about God's coming visitation in judgment (whether Noah or Jesus) you should be able to discern that day will be after all tribulation.
Trying make this into a pretrib coming would be um delusional.

 

[CrowCross]

My whole post 201 tells you.

Once you understand its about God's coming visitation in judgment (whether Noah or Jesus) you should be able to discern that day will be after all tribulation.
Trying make this into a pretrib coming would be um delusional.

??????? Noah got on the boat after the flood? That's not what my bible says.

Still, you need to deal with the social economic society of the pre-flood world.

 

[rebuilder 454]

??????? Noah got on the boat after the flood? That's not what my bible says.

Still, you need to deal with the social economic society of the pre-flood world.

They are unable to understand that since THEY FRAME the flood as the trib, then there can be no postflood rapture, with noah.
Their own doctrine did that to them.
They also stammer and stumble, over lot being gathered pretrib (which would NORMALLY BE overly obvious.)

That doctrine is so busted.
I had one guy telling me that the "one taken" in mat 24 is "taken to judgement".
Ok let's play it out.
Jesus said ,"before the flood one taken, and one left behind, watch and be ready".
Anyone can unpack it.
A 6 yr old can unpack it.

SO......We have a group where half is taken, before the trib., watch and be ready
That is what Jesus laid out.

It can not be half of earths population.
So that impossibility is not working, no matter what.
So that is off the table.

Nope, it is their entire cornerstone.

Their foundation is a cruel joke on them.

 

[CrowCross]

They are unable to understand that since THEY FRAME the flood as the trib, then there can be no postflood rapture, with noah.
Their own doctrine did that to them.
They also stammer and stumble, over lot being gathered pretrib (which would NORMALLY BE overly obvious.)

That doctrine is so busted.
I had one guy telling me that the "one taken" in mat 24 is "taken to judgement".
Ok let's play it out.
Jesus said ,"before the flood one taken, and one left behind, watch and be ready".
Anyone can unpack it.
A 6 yr old can unpack it.

SO......We have a group where half is taken, before the trib., watch and be ready
That is what Jesus laid out.

It can not be half of earths population.
So that impossibility is not working, no matter what.
So that is off the table.

Nope, it is their entire cornerstone.

Their foundation is a cruel joke on them.

Even the animals were gathered and taken away on the Ark.