Could the disciples have lost their salvation?

[bbyrd009]

Good points. Not very many are cut out to be saints. But there are many saved nevertheless.

and few there are who find it

make me wanna start back bangin lol

 

[bbyrd009]

um, and I certainly don't consider myself one of the few btw

 

[marks]

"having tomorrow as one's premise"
"going to heaven tomorrow, after I have literally died"

but as I say I dint even invent it, google coulda saved you

So then death is the end of everything for you?

 

[CoreIssue]

Good points. Not very many are cut out to be saints. But there are many saved nevertheless.

Saved are saints.

You are saying even though they are saved they should not be.

 

[Hidden In Him]

51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Remember, this was to Israel. The church did not yet exist.

Hey, CoreIssue. Looks like you did respond.

My question here would be why was the Lord teaching this to his disciples, and in the context of His second coming, if it was to Israel?

Blessings.

 

[bbyrd009]

So then death is the end of everything for you?

I wouldn't say that at all, no, I have no idea what I will become yet. And I'm sure not waiting until all my tomorrows are gone to start life more abundantly. Look Scripture is aware of our overwhelming preoccupation with what might happen to us after we have died, ok, and hence our desire to force our way in like we do, etc imo. And so if life, today, is not everything for you, then imo you are not even on the same page, your right eye will start offending you, and you are going to dig a pit for others to fall into, in your Tomorrow and your quest to go to heaven after you have died, and you are going to misinterpret every single line of Scripture I guess too, until you go talk to Preach or something and get an understanding of what our baptism ritual is really about
knowledge brings sorrow ok, but the keys to the kingdom are very real

 

[Hidden In Him]

John 17:
11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 6: (regarding "eat my flesh and drink my blood.")

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

Interesting post. How are you applying it then to the OP, sister?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Rewards...Children (Spiritually born) is the reward and are they not His reward?

There is a place where Paul talks about his spiritual children being his reward. But here in this parable they already have the household of God as their children as it were. They already had leadership over His household when He says, "46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing." But he then adds what their reward will be by saying, "47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods." So it would appear the two are two different things. I believe the reward here is what Paul was telling Timothy about when he said, "If we endure, we shall also reign with him." That's a different thing than just supervising over spiritual children in this life or the next. It is a position of rulership.

 

[marks]

And I'm sure not waiting until all my tomorrows are gone to start life more abundantly.

This is something we can be resoundingly on the same page with.

I think this is something many people miss out on, that God has given as an amazing and wonderful life right now, if we will only but live it, trusting Him that it's real.

I will say just the same that Scripture teaches us to keep our eye on the eternal as well.

Much love!
mark

 

[bbyrd009]

Ok well I am a liar so don't ask me but I would be making darn sure what Eternal even means

 

[Hidden In Him]

When you say "disciples" do you mean the Apostles (the 12) or His disciples (Mary Magdalene, Stephen, Timothy, Lazarus etc.)?

Mary

My belief is that he taught this parable to the 12, but the text nowhere states it explicitly, so that's an assumption on my part.

 

[bbyrd009]

"12" shouldn't be too hard to figure out

 

[Hidden In Him]

The condemnation of the unsaved.

His servants were the Israelites, to whom He had come seeking fruit. But instead the were enriching themselves and lording over the others.

Well, now keep in mind that this parable was taught to the disciples in the context of how they should be conducting themselves until Christ's return. This is why I was telling someone else that the parable being about Israel doesn't seem to fit the context.

This then is salvation by works, is it not?

No, no. My position is that there is no salvation apart from grace, but that the grace can be rescinded. The debt is insurmountable, so it is just a matter of if they remain in the good graces of the only one who can pay it.

 

[marks]

Well, now keep in mind that this parable was taught to the disciples in the context of how they should be conducting themselves until Christ's return. This is why I was telling someone else that the parable being about Israel doesn't seem to fit the context.


No, no. My position is that there is no salvation apart from grace, but that the grace can be rescinded. The debt is insurmountable, so it is just a matter of if they remain in the good graces of the only one who can pay it.

How does one remain in "the good graces"?

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Romans 8.38-39 is clear about the true believer's eternal security.

John's First Epistle has a lot to say about assurance of faith.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Whoever said this is obv focused on Death More Abundantly, and has no idea what they are talking about, and my remarks on if you dig a pit for others to fall into, you end up in it yourself should be relayed to that faker, ty

"having tomorrow as one's premise"
"going to heaven tomorrow, after I have literally died"

but as I say I dint even invent it, google coulda saved you

Ok well I am a liar so don't ask me but I would be making darn sure what Eternal even means

Byrd, would you cut it out? LoL. You still haven't given an answer to the OP, and you are highjacking this thread over into one of your pet debates.

Create your own!

 

[Hidden In Him]

How does one remain in "the good graces"?

Much love!

In this parable, the answer is right here:

"48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The reference is to the disciples, who would become the apostles of the church and lead it, turning to a life of sin and spiritually abusing the church of Jesus Christ. So it was a warning of what would become of them if they did.

 

[marks]

In this parable, the answer is right here:

"48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The reference is to the disciples, who would become the apostles of the church and lead it, turning to a life of sin and spiritually abusing the church of Jesus Christ. So it was a warning of what would become of them if they did.

So then the answer is that the person goes on to do evil works.

Or in otherwords, accumulates even greater debt.

So what is gained by "grace" is lost by works. Which means that to keep that grace, one must do the right works, abstaining from the wrong works. Is that right?

Much love!
Mark

 

[Marymog]

Greetings all, and blessings in Christ!

This is a continuation thread from one I started recently on the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. In it, there was the suggestion that the servant of the Lord could be given over to "tormentors" if he refused to walk in forgiveness. Arguments were presented that these tormentors could not be demons since it would insinuate that a servant of God could be cast into Hell and thus lose his salvation.

I have a follow up question: What was the Lord telling His disciples in this passage then? The reference here is even more suggestive of eternal torment, should they disobey Him and turn to using their spiritual authority to abuse His church:

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:45-51)
_____________________________________

To any for whom this thread may cause concern, it is not intended to create doubts in anyone's minds about their salvation. I believe those who are His have nothing to fear, provided they can abide by a few simple and reasonable rules. But there are a few things I believe He will not tolerate under any circumstances, and one of them is mentioned here. When His spiritual leaders turn to abusing His people instead of feeding and nurturing them spiritually, I believe their reward will be eternal suffering, where there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

NOTE: Please answer the question in the OP before proceeding with any discussion: What was the Lord referring to by saying He would cut them in two and appoint them their portion with the hypocrites, where there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.

Yes, the disciples (Apostles) could have lost their salvation.

For one of them it was better if he had not been born.

Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

So then death is the end of everything for you?

Another reply here might be "the 'you' that you refer to is an invention I created, and that was supposed to die @ baptism anyway"