Dan. 9:24

[Randy Kluth]

7 years means 40 years?
Sorry, but you are confused and your determination to make prophecies fit into past history, is a serious mistake, that leaves you in the dark about future events.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again--the Church Fathers, for the most part, believed that the 70th Week of Daniel referred to Christ's earthly ministry, cut short by his death. They believed, for the most part, that the Olivet Discourse then referred to *that generation* as the one that would see the "Abomination of Desolation," which was predicted to happen at that time in Dan 9.26-27.

The Messiah was to be "cut off" in the "midst" of the Week, which indicated that Messiah's ministry would be roughly 3.5 years. The last half of the Week is irrelevant, since the purpose of the 70th Week was not to complete a final 7 year period, but rather, to identify it as the last of 70 similar periods. The last 7 year period just happened to be fulfilled in 3.5 years. It was still the "70th Week!"

 

[Keraz]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again--the Church Fathers, for the most part, believed that the 70th Week of Daniel referred to Christ's earthly ministry, cut short by his death. They believed, for the most part, that the Olivet Discourse then referred to *that generation* as the one that would see the "Abomination of Desolation," which was predicted to happen at that time in Dan 9.26-27.

The Messiah was to be "cut off" in the "midst" of the Week, which indicated that Messiah's ministry would be roughly 3.5 years. The last half of the Week is irrelevant, since the purpose of the 70th Week was not to complete a final 7 year period, but rather, to identify it as the last of 70 similar periods. The last 7 year period just happened to be fulfilled in 3.5 years. It was still the "70th Week!"

The ECF's were wrong about this, as they were confused about most other Bible prophesies. As Daniel 12:4 says they would be.
The death of Jesus bears no relation to what Daniel 9:27 and 11:32 told us would happen at the mid point of that 7 years.

The end of the final 7 years is critical, because it is then that the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, are fulfilled.

I see your confusion and attempts to support your beliefs as getting increasingly way out and flimsy.
Best to believe what the Prophetic Word actually does say.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The ECF's were wrong about this, as they were confused about most other Bible prophesies. As Daniel 12:4 says they would be.
The death of Jesus bears no relation to what Daniel 9:27 and 11:32 told us would happen at the mid point of that 7 years.

The end of the final 7 years is critical, because it is then that the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, are fulfilled.

I see your confusion and attempts to support your beliefs as getting increasingly way out and flimsy.
Best to believe what the Prophetic Word actually does say.

You are obviously no expert on the Church Fathers. If you think you do better than them, you're obviously puffed up and somebody to be ignored.

 

[Keraz]

You are obviously no expert on the Church Fathers. If you think you do better than them, you're obviously puffed up and somebody to be ignored.

I do not promote myself. But I have widely read the ECF's and the Commentators, up until recent dissertations. There are none of them who have clearly and accurately written about the Bible prophecies, they all were simply unable to!
I showed you why this is; Daniel 12:4 & 9 says: Many will try to gain such knowledge, [of the end times], but the Words shall be kept secret until the time of the end.
We also have the Words of Jesus: Matthew 11:25 Father, You have hidden Your secrets from the wise and revealed them to the uneducated.

I put it to you: We are now in the time of the end of this Christian age.
Therefore now Daniel 12:10 applies: Many will purify themselves....but the wicked will continue on and none of them will understand. [know the truth of prophecy] Only a few wise leaders will understand.

It will only be those few who have cleared their minds of the proliferation of false teachings, whose minds will be illuminated with the truth of God's plans for our future. 2 Peter 1:19

 

[Randy Kluth]

I do not promote myself. But I have widely read the ECF's and the Commentators, up until recent dissertations. There are none of them who have clearly and accurately written about the Bible prophecies, they all were simply unable to!
I showed you why this is; Daniel 12:4 & 9 says: Many will try to gain such knowledge, [of the end times], but the Words shall be kept secret until the time of the end.
We also have the Words of Jesus: Matthew 11:25 Father, You have hidden Your secrets from the wise and revealed them to the uneducated.

I put it to you: We are now in the time of the end of this Christian age.
Therefore now Daniel 12:10 applies: Many will purify themselves....but the wicked will continue on and none of them will understand. [know the truth of prophecy] Only a few wise leaders will understand.

It will only be those few who have cleared their minds of the proliferation of false teachings, whose minds will be illuminated with the truth of God's plans for our future. 2 Peter 1:19

Well I'm sorry, brother--I didn't know. If you've read the Church Fathers to any degree, that's pretty impressive. At least you know what I'm talking about.

Somehow, along the way, you've decided that you get the revelation, and few else do. At least that's how it has seemed to me? And I know there's truth in that.

Anyway, my experience has been different. It's been a long road with many corrections. It's been a very humbling experience. You should go down that road too. You don't have to impressive anybody. Take care!

 

[Keraz]

Well I'm sorry, brother--I didn't know. If you've read the Church Fathers to any degree, that's pretty impressive. At least you know what I'm talking about.

Somehow, along the way, you've decided that you get the revelation, and few else do. At least that's how it has seemed to me? And I know there's truth in that.

Anyway, my experience has been different. It's been a long road with many corrections. It's been a very humbling experience. You should go down that road too. You don't have to impressive anybody. Take care!

I did have a fairly hefty book, that had most of the important writings of the ECF's. I read it, then gave it to a church library, when I was in Kyrgyzstan. The ECF's do have much of value to say, but not in the area of prophecy. Some of their guesses and speculations are laughable and easily shown to be wrong. Just like all the writers on Bible prophecy up to now.
That was how God wanted it to be; the prophesies were sealed, until the time of the end.

Now, as we are now at year 5990 since Adam, and by the signs apparent to us; NOW is the time of the end.
God has not placed so much information about His plans for the future, in the Bible for nobody to know them.
A few 'wise' people WILL understand. Why don't you take a fresh look, putting aside preconceived notions and prayerfully asking for understanding? Knowing what must happen, will make the journey thru the forthcoming difficult times, so much easier.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I did have a fairly hefty book, that had most of the important writings of the ECF's. I read it, then gave it to a church library, when I was in Kyrgyzstan. The ECF's do have much of value to say, but not in the area of prophecy. Some of their guesses and speculations are laughable and easily shown to be wrong. Just like all the writers on Bible prophecy up to now.
That was how God wanted it to be; the prophesies were sealed, until the time of the end.

Now, as we are now at year 5990 since Adam, and by the signs apparent to us; NOW is the time of the end.
God has not placed so much information about His plans for the future, in the Bible for nobody to know them.
A few 'wise' people WILL understand. Why don't you take a fresh look, putting aside preconceived notions and prayerfully asking for understanding? Knowing what must happen, will make the journey thru the forthcoming difficult times, so much easier.

You think I haven't been looking all these years? Of course I have! And having been humbled with being wrong so many times, I tend to open my ears and listen to anybody. Not being gullible--just open. Trying to hear the Lord in it.

Yes, there's truth in what you say. A number of prophetic viewpoints were at variance with one another. For example, the Church Fathers began Premill, and ended Amil. A couple of Church Fathers didn't hold to the historical view of Dan 9 and Luke 21, but most of them did. The ones that didn't basically followed the same aberrant line as Irenaeus.

Figuring out precisely what the 70th Week consisted of, and figuring out precisely what the Abomination of Desolation was, are matters of controversy, but hardly significant in terms of how the Church Fathers generally placed their time in history. They depicted the generation of Christ, and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

We today get in a quandary over differences like who is the Restrainer in 2 Thes 2? But this is not nearly as significant as the difference between Postrib and Pretrib. However, on matters like this there is a more conservative side, bolstered by traditional commentary. In the case of Postrib, we have historical confirmation, whereas there is little tradition behind Pretrib, other than the doctrine of "Imminency," which is viewed by Pretribbers in an unusual application of the same.

So there are differences over the Millennium, and differences over the Tribulation, as well as over minute differences within these prophecies. But history is a good place to look for confirmation, as opposed to an obsessive interest in modern applications in our own time. It is a carnal mind-set that seeks to apply things in our own lives, as if the whole universe revolves around us! And if we become the seers of our own time, then it just becomes a huge ego-trip.

But I respect the fact you've read the things about which you speak. We may simply have to disagree on some of this.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Hmmmmmmm,

I'm still waiting for people to start at the BEGINNING and arrive at the END; and not so much the jumping in the middle and declaring STUFF.


:shrug:
Bobby Jo

 

[Keraz]

Hmmmmmmm,

I'm still waiting for people to start at the BEGINNING and arrive at the END; and not so much the jumping in the middle and declaring STUFF.


:shrug:
Bobby Jo

Shrugs to you!
There has been a beginning, there will be a middle and then comes the end.

 

[Keraz]

So there are differences over the Millennium, and differences over the Tribulation, as well as over minute differences within these prophecies. But history is a good place to look for confirmation, as opposed to an obsessive interest in modern applications in our own time. It is a carnal mind-set that seeks to apply things in our own lives, as if the whole universe revolves around us! And if we become the seers of our own time, then it just becomes a huge ego-trip.

History only just confirms for us the fact that Jesus came and was killed. Then the Gospel was preached to the world and we Christians are the result.
There is absolutely no confirmation of any of the Revelation events from Rev 6:12, having happened yet

If you like to think my posting on forums is an ego trip, then you are very mistaken. For far from receiving approval and adulation, I get abuse and rejection. My ego is shriveled to walnut size!
The ancient Prophets got abuse and rejection, and worse. I promote their writings and so expect the same.

In consideration for your immortal soul, you should be more serious about the huge amount of the Prophetic Word God has given us.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Regarding: Dan. 9

... There has been a beginning ...

... which virtually everyone IGNORES. People would rather VIOLATE the angel's instructions; focus on a single passage; discard the LITERAL text; disregard HISTORY; then declare their "interpretation"; and think they're so smart.

And YOU are among these foolish people!
Bobby Jo

 

[Randy Kluth]

History only just confirms for us the fact that Jesus came and was killed. Then the Gospel was preached to the world and we Christians are the result.
There is absolutely no confirmation of any of the Revelation events from Rev 6:12, having happened yet

If you like to think my posting on forums is an ego trip, then you are very mistaken. For far from receiving approval and adulation, I get abuse and rejection. My ego is shriveled to walnut size!
The ancient Prophets got abuse and rejection, and worse. I promote their writings and so expect the same.

In consideration for your immortal soul, you should be more serious about the huge amount of the Prophetic Word God has given us.

We all need to be shrunk down to walnut size! Nothing wrong with remaining humble and open to correction.

I don't in the least disregard the prophetic Scriptures. Usually, they were given to the time in which they were spoken. Even though some of it was future prophecy, there often was an element of immediate instruction, designed to secure faithful obedience.

Future prophecy is a hallmark of God, though. When something comes to pass in history, that exceeds the capacity of Man to arrange, it speaks of divine providence. We do need signs and wonders to know that it is God who is speaking. We need to recognize God's plan in history, to judge human behavior in history and to judge its consequences.

I don't claim to know all of what the book of Revelation is about, or what the significance is of each and every prophecy in that book, including the 6th seal. But it seems apparent to me that the overall concept involves our understanding that divine judgment is coming upon all of mankind, particularly in these endtimes. And as human behavior worsens, and as Christian civilization collapses, we need to warn the world that their behavior is being judged, not just in the future but even in the present.

What does it matter whether these judgments come by solar flares or by earthquakes? Certainly they matter, because we should know that every part of our lives are subject to destruction when God is angry with our world. And Christians have to know and be prepared to live through these times as well, not because we deserve it, but only because God leaves us here as witnesses.

I think there is a danger in focusing too much on isolated judgments and passages of the Bible that obscure the larger picture of divine judgment upon this whole world. We can get lost in the microscopic picture, and lose the grand design!

But I don't have a problem with looking at the possibility of solar flares--I know they're real. And I believe they also can be part of God's judgment. I just don't see why God would focus exclusively on that, as opposed to the many other judgments that accompany things like this? Why should we care what particular method God is using when the idea is simply that there is no escape for this world? Every part of our world is subject to judgment, in land, in sea, or in the air!

 

[Earburner]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again--the Church Fathers, for the most part, believed that the 70th Week of Daniel referred to Christ's earthly ministry, cut short by his death. They believed, for the most part, that the Olivet Discourse then referred to *that generation* as the one that would see the "Abomination of Desolation," which was predicted to happen at that time in Dan 9.26-27.

The Messiah was to be "cut off" in the "midst" of the Week, which indicated that Messiah's ministry would be roughly 3.5 years.
The last half of the Week is irrelevant, since the purpose of the 70th Week was not to complete a final 7 year period, but rather, to identify it as the last of 70 similar periods. The last 7 year period just happened to be fulfilled in 3.5 years. It was still the "70th Week!"

Oh not so fast!!
There are two "princes" being talked about, and in scripture we should be aware of that which is important ABOUT scripture, FROM God's perspective:
John 5[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Therefore, God's focuss is on the Messiah the Prince (Jesus), and NOT the people of the prince (Titus) that shall come to destroy the city...
In Dan. 9:24, LOOK at the six issues that the Messiah was to accomplish. Its ALL about Jesus!

The last half of the week is indeed relevant!! LOOK at those verses again in the KJV. Dan. 9[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And HE (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week HE (Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations HE (Jesus) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now please pay attention!
Jesus is "cut off"in the midst of the week

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Messiah the Prince (Jesus) ...

Yep, ALL 39 instances of the word mashiyach refer to Jesus. There's no PICKING and CHOOSING going on HERE. And no unwarranted CAPITALIZATION when Hebrews HAS NO CAPITALIZATION.


Nope, NOTHING DISHONEST about the Distorting, Contorting, and Aborting of SCRIPTURE.

Silly people ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Randy Kluth]

Oh not so fast!!
There are two "princes" being talked about, and in scripture we should be aware of that which is important ABOUT scripture, FROM God's perspective:
John 5[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Therefore, God's focuss is on the Messiah the Prince (Jesus), and NOT the people of the prince (Titus) that shall come to destroy the city...
In Dan. 9:24, LOOK at the six issues that the Messiah was to accomplish. Its ALL about Jesus!

That's certainly one interpretation. There are several different views of the princes and the anointed ones in this passage, since there are several. Are they only a couple or more? You know my view.

The last half of the week is indeed relevant!! LOOK at those verses again in the KJV. Dan. 9[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And HE (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week HE (Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations HE (Jesus) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Now please pay attention!
Jesus is "cut off"in the midst of the week

Yea, you can choose whatever interpretation you want. I don't believe there's any emphasis at all on the last half of the 70th Week. The critical event in the 70th Week is the cutting off of Messiah, which takes place in the middle of the week. That is what's significant to me--not the matter of completing the final week.

 

[Keraz]

Now please pay attention!
Jesus is "cut off"in the midst of the week

What this brings to our attention, is that you are a purveyor of false beliefs.
Daniel 9:26 After three score and two 'weeks, the Messiah shall be cut off.....
Meaning; after 62, 7 year periods, plus the first 7, 7 year periods, that is 69 X 7= 483 years, then; Jesus will be killed.

So your belief the Jesus was Crucified in the middle of the final 7 year period, is quite wrong.

 

[Keraz]

We all need to be shrunk down to walnut size! Nothing wrong with remaining humble and open to correction.

I don't in the least disregard the prophetic Scriptures. Usually, they were given to the time in which they were spoken. Even though some of it was future prophecy, there often was an element of immediate instruction, designed to secure faithful obedience.

Future prophecy is a hallmark of God, though. When something comes to pass in history, that exceeds the capacity of Man to arrange, it speaks of divine providence. We do need signs and wonders to know that it is God who is speaking. We need to recognize God's plan in history, to judge human behavior in history and to judge its consequences.

I don't claim to know all of what the book of Revelation is about, or what the significance is of each and every prophecy in that book, including the 6th seal. But it seems apparent to me that the overall concept involves our understanding that divine judgment is coming upon all of mankind, particularly in these endtimes. And as human behavior worsens, and as Christian civilization collapses, we need to warn the world that their behavior is being judged, not just in the future but even in the present.

What does it matter whether these judgments come by solar flares or by earthquakes? Certainly they matter, because we should know that every part of our lives are subject to destruction when God is angry with our world. And Christians have to know and be prepared to live through these times as well, not because we deserve it, but only because God leaves us here as witnesses.

I think there is a danger in focusing too much on isolated judgments and passages of the Bible that obscure the larger picture of divine judgment upon this whole world. We can get lost in the microscopic picture, and lose the grand design!

But I don't have a problem with looking at the possibility of solar flares--I know they're real. And I believe they also can be part of God's judgment. I just don't see why God would focus exclusively on that, as opposed to the many other judgments that accompany things like this? Why should we care what particular method God is using when the idea is simply that there is no escape for this world? Every part of our world is subject to judgment, in land, in sea, or in the air!

The usual Randywaffle!
What matters and what we should be very concerned about, is how we should react to future events. Most of these events, as the Bible prophets describe them, will be extremely dramatic; earth shaking and civilization changing.
Why be surprised and unprepared?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Faaaaaalse. If we worry about what may be, -- then THROW OUT BIBLE PROPHECY. But if we worry about what Bible Prophecy SAYS, then STOP TAKING SELECT VERSES OUT OF CONTEXT and LYING to people what those OUT OF CONTEXT VERSES MEAN.



And so you attack those who defend Scripture...
Bobby Jo

No, too much focus on isolated passages, and the big picture is lost. For example, if we focus, narrowly, on a prophecy to Moab, we in the Western world will lose interest, if all we look at is the fact this prophecy was given literally to Moab. The big picture involves the *lesson* this gives to any country, including the Western world. These are principles to live by, and not information to be separated into irrelevant categories.

There is no emphasis on the 6th seal to make judgment about what specific kind of judgment is coming, whether they're solar flares or some other means God uses to bring all things under judgment. The big picture is, we all need to get ready.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The usual Randywaffle!
What matters and what we should be very concerned about, is how we should react to future events. Most of these events, as the Bible prophets describe them, will be extremely dramatic; earth shaking and civilization changing.
Why be surprised and unprepared?

I'm not waffling--I just think you're disrupting the focus of prophecies like the 6th seal, by emphasizing things that obscure the picture.

For example, let's look at this:

Rev 6.12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Since kings and generals are mentioned, it is clear to me that this is talking about a war--probably Armageddon, which is described in more detail later in the vision. Since there is mention of the rich, this is all about power and wealth--a war over control on earth. This is also explained later in the vision to be about the Great Whore, Mystery Babylon, which I take to be endtimes Rome, or European Civilization.

The symbols used in the vision to express the judgment to come upon all this reflect, poetically, the grip God has over history. A great earthquake may symbolize a complete disruption of the world's stability. The heavenly signs indicate a need for repentance, the sun turning black *like sackcloth.* The falling stars depict the collapse of corrupt angelic rule on the earth. "Fig trees dropping" indicate the failure of Christian Civilization to produce good fruit in many places. Mountains being moved indicate that all human power is being subverted by the rule of God, changing the entire composition of the ruling classes. Judgment from God will bring opposition to God's Kingdom to an end.

If all you do is focus on the symbols used in this vision, you will fail to see what they represent. It's all about God taking control away from corrupt powers on this earth. And this will happen when Christ returns. Getting ourselves ready for solar flares is not the issue. The way we get ready is not by reading up on how to survive the loss of the electrical grid, but rather, by keeping ourselves responsive to God's Spirit as Christians. We need to warn the world of judgment, and invite them to properly prepare by converting our selfish lives to exclusive service to Christ. That alone prepares the world for judgment.

 

[Keraz]

And so you attack those who defend Scripture...

I point out the truths of Bible Prophecy, plainly described facts that most deny, to their discredit and to their future regret.

If all you do is focus on the symbols used in this vision, you will fail to see what they represent. It's all about God taking control away from corrupt powers on this earth. And this will happen when Christ returns. Getting ourselves ready for solar flares is not the issue. The way we get ready is not by reading up on how to survive the loss of the electrical grid, but rather, by keeping ourselves responsive to God's Spirit as Christians. We need to warn the world of judgment, and invite them to properly prepare by converting our selfish lives to exclusive service to Christ. That alone prepares the world for judgment.

You know; you are right - doing anything about the forthcoming worldwide disaster, is futile. However; Isaiah 26:20-21 applies.
My main aim is to warn people about what the Lord will use to reset our civilization, so that when it comes, they will know it is from the Lord and they will call upon His Name for protection during that terrible Day.

Symbols? The ancient Prophets did use metaphors sometimes, because they didn't have the modern knowledge that we have. We can figure out what they said, or the bible explains then elsewhere.
Fire from the sun will strike the earth, CME's have happened before.
Mountains and islands will move; Tectonic plate movement happens.
Stars will fall: Meteor showers happen and our 7000+ satellites will be forced to crash back to earth by the pressure wave of a CME.
As for kings and generals, you fail to note that Revelation 6:15 describes every person alive at that time. But it is a war that triggers God's fiery wrath; the attack prophesied in Psalms 83 and Micah 4:11-12