Shalom, Trekson.
Your words: ‘While I agree in principle, the reality is that believing in millennia old prophecies isn’t “common” sense. Believing that Christ was the Son of God isn’t “common” sense, etc. We accept these things by faith, which in and of itself is also NOT “common sense”.’
Ridiculous. “Common sense” is just another way of saying “wisdom,” although it may not be so “common.” And, “having faith in God” is simply “trusting God.” We don’t make a “leap of faith” to believe something; we simply take God at His word and trust Him!
In my opinion, the KJV is the best version when it comes to translating Hebrews 11:1:
Hebrews 11:1
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
KJV
Here’s the Greek:
Pros Hebraious 11:1
1 Estin de pistis elpizomenoon hupostasis, pragmatoon elegchos ou blepomenoon.
The Greek New Testament (UBS)
Estin = is
de = but
pistis = faith; trust
elpizomenoon = of-anticipated-things
hupostasis = a-setting-under; essence; assurance
pragmatoon = deeds; affairs; objects (material)
elegchos = proof; conviction
ou = not
blepomenoon = looked-at; seen
Faith is NOT hoping for things or not seeing things; it’s SUBSTANCE and EVIDENCE! What “substance?” Simply the actual parchment, vellum, papyri, paper or electronic media and the ink with which the Bible was written! What “evidence?” All the records that follow in the 11th chapter and more!
Look, we don’t BLINDLY follow our God. We read His Word and learn about His attitudes and power. We learn about His desire – His will – for our lives; what does He want us to do? Then, KNOWING what God is truly like, we TRUST Him to both love us, want the best for us, and to do for us what we can’t do for ourselves, and sometimes (many more times than we might even realize) that includes miracles – things that may seem impossible from a human perspective.
It’s EASY to have faith! Just read about these people IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, btw, and imagine them as “Joe Blow” down the street in your neighborhood. REAL PEOPLE who lived and did all the things other human beings do and felt all the things other human beings feel, and then focus on how GOD stepped in and helped them out of difficult and even impossible situations. Then, KNOW that same God will do the same for you, that God WANTS to do the same for you! It’s not about our faith or the size of our faith. It’s all about GOD and the SIZE AND STRENGTH of our GOD! We can have faith no bigger than a grain of mustard seed or a radish seed (to put it in perspective of anyone who does some gardening these days) and we can still learn to TRUST GOD!
These “millennia-old prophecies” are just God’s PROMISES, good or bad, that God SHALL fulfill! That is, they SHALL happen, whether one thinks so or not. He WILL fulfill them! That is, He CHOOSES to fulfill them! For whom were they written? To whom were they written? Where were any of us 4000 to 3000 years ago?
So, when we read something like Romans 9 through 11, one should understand that the “all Israel” in 11:26 is Paul talking about all the children of Israel, not the Goyim or the Gentiles – all the other nations of the earth. Why? Because of the CONTRAST! These “all Israel” are not contrasted to the Gentiles who do not believe but to the Gentiles who DID believe:
Romans 11:17-29
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV
The “all Israel” is contrasted with the BELIEVING Gentiles! Therefore, the “all Israel” DOES NOT INCLUDE the believing Gentiles!
Your words: ‘Again, I agree, however, we usually “grasp” a truth in the context of other truths. If one of the “other” truths [isn’t] as correct as we thought, then within the context we must be flexible to change and adapt our thinking to the latest truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit. I don’t equate that style of flexibility with being “wishy-washy”. There are those on sites such as this that are so rigid in their beliefs, they have absolutely no desire to be flexible in light of any prophetic truth.’
Okay, I can agree on this point. It was just a simple matter of symantics.
My words: 'Just remember: The Truth is NOT a subjective thing! If it is GOD’S Truth, then it is objective and universally true! The words “What’s true for you is not what’s true for me” or “What’s true for me is not necessarily true for you” should NEVER come out of a believer’s mouth! So too, “what makes sense to me” and “what makes sense to you” should also be on the same page, if they both come from God. God’s wisdom is NOT subjective; that is, dependent upon the subject, different for different people.'
Your words: ‘I don’t know if I can totally agree with your prior statement. Let me offer some examples. Let’s say an alcoholic gets saved and delivered from His alcoholism and as such is in a way told by God that to remain delivered, he must totally abstain from that particular sin. It is not uncommon for that person to thus declare that EVERYONE “must” abstain from all alcohol, all the time. This would be simply untrue, so in this case, what is a truth for one, is not a truth for all. The fact that two different, opposite interpretations of prophetic scripture can “make sense” to each proponent also isn’t uncommon. While I agree that God’s wisdom is not subjective, our individual understanding of His prophetic wisdom will be. Most of the difference lies in where our understanding comes from. Because of your beliefs, you take a different approach to prophetic scriptures, as I do mine. Neither of us should say our approach is “better”, than the others’, just different. However, our “approach” usually ends up with different understandings as the scriptures you quoted below do.’
As I see your analogy here, the problem is NOT in the alcoholic’s interpretation of God’s truth for him; it’s in GENERALIZING it to be truth for all. He needs to have a better understanding of how to present God’s truth. He must QUALIFY God’s truth for him when he is attempting to share it with others. That is, he needs to say, “This is true for me, and it MAY also be true for you. Therefore, I RECOMMEND that you abstain from alcohol. It is unwise to partake of alcohol.” It’s probably true that God’s truth for him would be true for ALL ALCOHOLICS that God has redeemed, AND it is often true that one doesn’t even know that he or she has a PROPENSITY to become an alcoholic until AFTER he or she has taken his or her first drink!
Ever hear of “Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis?” It’s a way for two people to come to a consensus about some truths that they see by generalizing their statements in a way to include both points of view. It’s not “compromise”; it’s seeing both sides to come to a broader statement that somehow includes both sets of truth. This is usually done by qualification. For instance, consider these two viewpoints:
Thesis: “When the stoplight turns yellow, one should prepare to stop,” and
Antithesis: “When the stoplight turns yellow, one should hurry through the intersection.”
Both are true, depending on the situation. To make a broader Synthesis, one must QUALIFY the statement to include both cases:
Synthesis: “When the stoplight turns yellow, IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH TIME AND DISTANCE TO COME TO A COMPLETE STOP, one should prepare to stop; if, however, one does NOT have enough time and distance to stop, one should hurry through the intersection.”
This is the better way to come to a consensus. Again, this is NOT a compromise in which each side gives and takes; it is a SYNTHESIS of ideas based upon QUALIFICATIONS, making the general rule broader and more general to include both truths.
My words: 'Now, if he wants to have a “WORKING point by point timeline,” that’s another matter! That shows that he MAY yet have a willingness to discard it all if he is found to be wrong on any or ALL points within his timeline! When one spouts out words without understanding, he is more likely to be forced to eat his words and runs the risk of having to retract what he had been claiming, losing face with those who had believed him!'
Your words: ‘I think you should know me well enough by now, especially with my comments on flexibility, that a “working” timeline was what I had in mind.’
Yes, I do … now. Remember, however, that you JUST SAID your comments on flexibility in this last post.
My words: 'I’m glad that you know that what I believe is hinged upon “all about Israel and the Resurrection.” That’s a good start, if you can accept just those two points. However, I am also a stickler for proper terminology: That is, God’s acceptance of us, the “New Birth,” is found in the word “JUSTIFICATION (by God)” and not “salvation.” That “salvation” is about God’s “rescue” of His people, the children of Israel, through the zeal of His Emissary and Son, Yeshua` the Messiah, when He returns to earth.'
Your words: ‘I’m sorry Retro but God’s word disagrees with your understanding.
Rom. 1:16 – “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”’
Not true. IF your definition of “salvation” is “God’s justification of an individual” or the “new birth,” then your INTERPRETATION of the passage is going to be one way, BUT if you define “salvation” as a “national rescue,” your INTERPRETATION of that SAME PASSAGE is going to give you an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT VIEW! It’s not “God’s Word” that disagrees with my understanding; it’s YOUR INTERPRETATION of God’s Word that disagrees with my understanding! Your INTERPRETATION of God’s Word SLANTS your view of ALL Scripture! And again, your interpretation is based upon your DEFINITIONS of these key, fundamental words! You may not even have clear definitions for these words, but in your mind and word usage, you have subconscious definitions at least that manifest themselves in what you say and how you act. They are probably the result of years of teaching and preaching from others, but that’s the dilemma! It’s VERY HARD to break away from teachings that have been made traditional for a person! YOU DON’T KNOW THAT YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU DON’T KNOW! It’s really a “Catch-22!” That’s why I call it a “paradigm shift!” It’s really going to take a lot of work to change if you’ve been subjected to that form of teaching all your life as a believer!
Let’s make the substitutions and you may see what I mean:
When you read the above, I think you’re probably seeing:
Rom. 1:16 – “For I am not ashamed of the [message of the death, burial, and resurrection] of Christ: for it is the power of God unto [personal deliverance from sin] to everyone that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”
When I read the same verse, I see:
Rom. 1:16 – “For I am not ashamed of the [good news about the Kingdom] of [the Messiah] – that is, the Messiah’s good news about the Kingdom – for it [the Messiah’s good news about the Kingdom] is the power of God unto [national rescue] to everyone that believeth, to the Jew first (because it is THEIR good news), and also to the Greek (as graffed in contrary to nature).”
Rom. 11:11 – “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.”
You see:
Rom. 11:11 – “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall [personal deliverance from sin] is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.”
I see:
Rom. 11:11 – “I say then, Have they (the children of Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their (temporary) fall [national rescue] is [extended] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy.
Heb. 2:3 – “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;”
You see:
Heb. 2:3 – “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great [personal deliverance from sin]; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;”
I see:
Heb. 2:3 – “How shall we escape, if we [carelessly handle] so great [national rescue]; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;”
(This also has the added benefit, btw, in NOT referring to “personal deliverance from sin” suggesting that one may lose his or her “personal deliverance!” How does one “lose” his or her new birth or his or her relationship of being one of God’s very own children? What? I dropped it and it rolled off into the bushes?)
John 3:17 – “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
You see:
John 3:17 – “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be [personally delivered from sin].”
I see:
John 3:17 – “For God sent not his Son into the world to [judge] the world; but that the world through him might be [rescued from judgment].”
And, Yeshua` SHALL judge the world THROUGHOUT the Millennium! That’s what a King does! He is the SUPREME COURT for decisions on all matters too large for lesser judges to make.
You said, ‘Of course there are several more, but you get my drift. Salvation is for everyone, not just the Jews, and justification is simply the result of receiving salvation! This quoted concept of yours: “That “salvation” is about God’s “rescue” of His people, the children of Israel, through the zeal of His Emissary and Son, Yeshua` the Messiah, when He returns to earth” simply isn’t true! The Jews have had as many opportunities to be “saved” as the rest of the world has had. Now, will there come a generation that will be more open to the gospel than previous ones? Yes, I believe there will be. But their “salvation” will ONLY come through their acceptance that Christ was the Messiah. It will not be a “physical” salvation, as that is irrelevant. It will be a ‘spiritual” salvation, which is of far greater importance which the whole NT teaches.’
LOL!!! Again, you are misusing the word “spiritual.” “Spiritual” does NOT mean “non-physical!” That is a COMMON ERROR!!! It’s to be used as Paul used the word in 1 Cor. 15 where it was contrasted with “natural.” The word “natural” comes from the Greek word “psuchikos” while the word “spiritual” comes from the Greek word “pneumatikos.” The word “psuchikos” comes from the Greek word “psuchee” usually translated as “soul.” The word “pneumatikos” comes from the Greek word “pneuma” usually translated as “spirit.” So, if “pneumatikos” is usually translated as “spiritual,” the word “psuchikos” should be translated as “soul-ual.”
1 Cor. 15:35-54
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies (soomata epourania = bodies above-the-sky), and bodies terrestrial (soomata epigeia = bodies above-the-ground): but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV
There are several pairs of comparison words in this chapter:
Epourania (above the sky) – epigeia (above the ground)
Fthora (corruption) – aftharsia (incorruption)
Atimia (dishonor) – doxee (glory)
Astheneia (weakness) – dunamei (power)
Psuchikos (natural) – pneumatikos (spiritual)
Zoosan (living) – zoo-opoioun (quickening; life-giving)
Psucheen (soul) – pneuma (spirit)
Prootos (first) – eschatos (last)
Ek gees (out of earth) – ex ouranou (out of sky)
Choikos (earthy; dirty) – epouranios (of above-the-sky)
Ftharton (corruptible) – aftharsian (incorruption)
Thneeton (mortal) – athanasian (immortality)
Thanatos (death) – nikos (victory)
However, this is incomplete without the description of just such an “immortal; incorruptible body”:
Luke 24:36-43
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (pneuma).
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit (pneuma) hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
KJV
Thus, we have one more comparison between the two:
Sarx kai haima (flesh and blood) – sarka kai ostea (flesh and bones)
Notice, however, that BOTH involve “flesh!” Furthermore, Yeshua` said that he was NOT a “spirit!” Bare grain may be physical but then so are the plants that spring from that grain!
So, what IS the difference between psuchikos and pneumatikos? The key is in verse 45 above. This is a quotation of Genesis 2:7:
Gen. 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV
Breshiyt 2:7
7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa’aadaam `aafaar min haa’adaamaah vayipach bapaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa’aadaam lnefesh chayaah:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH
Vayiytser = And-formed
YHWH = the-LORD; (GOD’S NAME)
Elohiym = God
Et = (following word is the direct object; non-translatable)
Haa’aadaam = the-man; Adam
`aafaar = of-the-dust
min = from
haa’adaamaah = the-RED-ground
vayipach = and-breathed
b’apaayv = into-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayiym = of-life
vayhiy = and-became
haa’aadaam = the-man; Adam
lnefesh = to-a-breather
chayaah = living:
Later, we learn this:
Gen. 6:13-22
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life (ruach chayiym = a-wind of-life), from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
KJV
And then in Gen. 7:
Gen. 7:14-22
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life (ruach chayiym = a-wind of-life).
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils (b’apaayv = in-its-nostrils) was the breath of life (nishmat ruwach chayiym = a-puff of-a-wind of-life), of all that was in the dry land, died.
KJV
So, this is a VERY physical thing! YHWH performed the first CPR and PUFFED into the man’s nostrils a breath of life! The “nefesh” is the “one who is breathing” and the “ruwach” is the “wind” or the “forceful breath!” Carrying that into the Greek, the word “nefesh” is translated into “psuchee,” and the word “ruwach” is translated into the word “pneuma!” Thus, the “psuchee” is the “one who breathes” or the “breather” and the “pneuma” is the “wind or forceful breath!”
Thus, the adjective forms of these words, namely “psuchikos” and “pneumatikos” respectively, are adjectives of these concepts. The first one is talking about the “body that breathes” and the second is talking about the “body that produces WIND or blows forceably!” Notice, too, that the first statement is that Adam’s body was just managing to stay alive by breathing but that Yeshua`s body was producing a forceful breath that GAVE life, for the word “quickening” comes from “zoo-opoioun” (spelled zeta-omega-omicron-pi-omicron-iota-omicron-upsilon-nu) which means to “make alive!” And, THAT is the comparison between “natural” and “spiritual,” not this fantasy of “physical” and “nonphysical.” If anything, it is “physical” and SUPER-physical!”
Now, would YOU like to tell me just what do these verses mean, since you don’t like my understanding of them?
Isa. 59:12-60:5
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;
13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.
15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
60 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
KJV
Joel 2:28-3:21
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompence me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:
6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats (vats) overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
KJV
Zech 12:1-14
1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV
My words: 'That a “church” is simply a “called-out assembly,” not some entity in and of itself, frequently called the “body of Christ.” That the “church” is LOCAL and VISIBLE, not universal (“catholic”) and invisible, as some claim.'
Your words: ‘That the word “universal” equals “catholic” just simply is untrue. “Universal” is just the word to describe the global amalgamation of “local” bodies. I don’t know anyone who has claimed it to be “invisible”.’
Just look up the definition of “catholic,” would you? It’s exasperating for someone to deny a simple definition that’s been true for at least one and a half millennia!
Catholic
catholic adjective
her musical tastes are quite catholic: universal, diverse, diversified, wide, broad, broad-based, eclectic, liberal, latitudinarian; comprehensive, all-encompassing, all-embracing, all-inclusive. ANTONYMS narrow.
My words: 'That an “angel” is just a “messenger,” whether supernatural or human, and when it is human, it is often talking about one of God’s prophets, one who carries God’s message to others.'
Your words: ‘Or it can mean “pastor” as in the letter to the seven churches.’
True. That’s because a pastor IS a prophet in the sense that he proclaims God’s word to the people. My dad used to say that the only difference between a prophet and a pastor is that a prophet is a “FORE-teller” while a pastor is a “FORTH-teller.” That’s a bit simplistic, perhaps, but accurate enough.
My words: 'That the “Kingdom of God,” or “God’s Kingdom,” is the same as that over which David and Shlomoh (Solomon) ruled, literal on this earth in the near future, not ethereal in some “heaven” far away in the present.'
Your words: ‘LOL! Now that’s just “messed up”. The “Kingdom of God” has zero to do with Jewishness or Israel and EVERYTHING to do with FAITH!! When’s the last time you read some of Christ’s parables?’
And when is the last time that YOU considered that these parables were the CHRIST’S parables, that is, they were the MESSIAH’S parables? See what I mean by starting with certain subconscious, implied definitions? I would STRONGLY recommend that you read the chapters on “The Kingdom Concept In The Old Testament” (Chapter XXV) and “The Kingdom Program In The New Testament” (Chapter XXVI) in J. Dwight Pentecost’s book Things To Come. While I don’t agree with everything he had to say, he DID have a good history on the Kingdom and he made good observations of the theocratic kingdom offered at the first advent of the Messiah! Then, to tie it all together, you must realize that Paul did NOT provide a different “gospel” than did the Messiah anymore than he taught a different “Kingdom!”
Your words: ‘Matt. 6:33 – “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
What would there be to “seek”, if they were already living in it? The “Kingdom of God” is a spiritual kingdom, not a physical one!’
But, they were NOT already living in it! They had the Messiah present who could have GIVEN them the Kingdom of God, but they chose to REJECT the Messiah of God! You are just plain WRONG that the Kingdom of God is “a spiritual kingdom, not a physical one!” First of all, you have another assumed, erroneous definition of that word “spiritual”; that is, it is a “non-physical” kingdom! Nothing could be farther from the truth!
Second, there you go again with “spiritual!” Can you begin to understand how much I HATE how that word is abused?!
Third, we are to be WATCHING and ANTICIPATING the soon return of the Messiah! HE is whom we are seeking! To seek for God’s Kingdom, one must watch and anticipate God’s KING!
Fourth, remember that these words were spoken by the Messiah Himself WHILE HE WAS HERE ON EARTH THE FIRST TIME!
Matt. 12:28 – “But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.”
Yeshua`s words here do NOT mean that the Kingdom of God had already come to STAY! It had come FOR THAT MOMENT IN TIME. It was a LEGITIMATE offer of that Kingdom over which David once ruled! In fact, when the King left, so did the promise of the Kingdom! When Yeshua` ascended into the sky, no longer was that offer of the Kingdom in place! It was rescinded! Instead, they were left “DESOLATE!” (Matt. 23:38)
Matt. 21:42-43 – “Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
These verses are NOT implying that the Kingdom of God once ruled by David the King would be given to another people – a different nation! He is talking about another time in the future when Israel will be formed again! That would be the “nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” That’s why it wasn’t “nations” (plural); it was “nation” (singular)!
Your words: ‘What you need to understand is that when Christ returns, the WHOLE WORLD will be His kingdom and the capital city will be Jerusalem. Not because Israel has done anything to deserve that honor but it is ONLY because of promises God made to David and other historic figures from the OT. The only requirement and the only way to be a “citizen” of that kingdom will be faith! If they didn’t have that “faith” in their life, they won’t get a second chance after death whether they be Jew or Gentiles as God is “no respecter of persons”.’
I understand that more than you know! When the Messiah returns, the whole world will indeed become His Kingdom and the capital city will be Yerushalayim. And, you’re right! It won’t be because Israel has done anything to deserve that honor; it will indeed be because of the promises God made to David and other patriarchs in the Tanakh. However, what YOU need to understand is that this “world-wide Kingdom” won’t happen overnight or instantaneously! It will GROW from being the smallest of Kingdoms into a Kingdom that engulfs the world! That’s what the parable of the mustard seed and the parable of the leaven in Matthew 13 are all about!
The parable of the mustard seed is talking about the SIZE of the Kingdom growing, and the parable of the leaven among the three measures of wheat flour is talking about the INFLUENCE of the Kingdom growing.
They are reminiscent of the stone cut out of the mountain without hands growing until it itself became a huge mountain in Daniel 2.
My words: 'That the “gospel” is just “good news” and that it specifically is about the previously mentioned Kingdom of God coming with the presence of the King.'
Your words: ‘This is just as wrong as your previous statement. The “gospel” is the good news that salvation is available to all because of Christ’s death and resurrection…Period!!
1 Cor. 15:1-4 – “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
I don’t know where you get your info from but you are being deceived, my brother.’
No, this is JUST what I was talking about before! This passage in 1 Corinthians 15, the Resurrection Chapter, is NOT a definition of the word “gospel!” A definition is when you have two things being exactly equal in meaning and the second is said to define the first. However, in set notation logic and discrete mathematics, we are taught that the ONLY way to determine that two things are equivalent is if EACH of the two things has been said to be the other. That is, each set of factors is a SUBSET of the other set of factors. If set A is a subset of set B, and set B is also a subset of set A, then set A = set B. Then and ONLY then can set B be said to define set A and vice versa.
My words: ‘Then, one must have a good understanding of what Yeshua` was talking about, as reported by Mattityahu haLeviy in Matthew 24 and 25, Yochanan Marcus in Mark 13, and by the physician Lukas in Luke 21:… Notice all the places where the pronouns are “you” and “your.” These are places in Yeshua`s discourse where He is talking DIRECTLY to His students standing and sitting before Him on that mountain side that day.”… The key is to know which parts have already been fulfilled (like the surrounding and destruction of Yerushalayim) and which parts have yet to be fulfilled (like the signs in the sun, moon, and stars).
"However, watch out for yourselves, for before all these happen, they shall grab you, and hound you, deliver you up to the town councils and to their synagogues (meeting places), and in their synagogues you shall be beaten, and thrown into prisons. Then, they shall haul you before rulers and kings all on my account. They shall deliver you up to be tortured and shall kill you. You shall be hated by all nations on account of my title, but it shall turn out to be a testimony against them and for you.
"Now, the brother shall betray his brother to death, and the father (shall betray) his son, and children shall take action against their parents and shall cause them to be executed. You shall be betrayed both by your parents and your siblings, your kinfolk, and your friends, and they shall cause some of you to be executed. You shall be hated by all people on account of my title, but not a hair of your head shall be lost. By standing firm you shall save your lives. He that shall hold out until the climax shall be rescued!’
Your words: ‘It’s my opinion that your outlook on these passages [is] errant and extremely narrow-minded. From your point of view only the disciples will be “rescued”. Is that what you believe? Is there any historical data confirming that all those who heard these words were betrayed by their parents, siblings, kinfolk and friends? If anything I would think because of the sacrifice of His disciples that God would make sure their “kinfolk” received salvation!’
Nonsense. For you to say any of this only serves to tell me that you DON’T know my “point of view,” yet! First of all, Yeshua`s disciples who heard the Olivet Discourse WERE the only ones who escaped the persecution that went with the destruction of Yerushalayim and the Temple! They were the ONLY ONES who had a “heads up,” a prophetic warning of what was coming!
Second, yes, there are historic records of Jews being sold out by their friends and family members to save their own skins, particularly those of the “Way” who were hiding out in the mountains, deserts, and catacombs.
Third, as often as possible, family members were convinced that Yeshua` was indeed their Messiah; however, God is not going to FORCE one to accept that fact. And, those who did NOT accept it, were open to making deals with the Romans and mercenaries to save themselves.
Your words: ‘Are we to assume that every time Jesus and Paul used the words “you” and “your”, it is always referring to the audience of the moment? I believe that Christ is speaking to the disciples as founding fathers of the church, not as Jews. It’s really simple as I’ve explained before. No matter how similar or likely a fulfillment seems, if all six aspects of Dan. 9:24-27 haven’t been fulfilled, then it does NOT qualify as a fulfillment, no matter how much you want it to.’
Sure! When you are talking to a person or a group of people and you use the words “you” and “your,” aren’t YOU talking directly to the people in front of you? It’s really NUTS to think otherwise! Yeshua` was/is JUST LIKE US! If you’ll go back and re-read the translation I provided of the harmony of the Greek texts of the Olivet Discourse, you will see that He is NOT ALWAYS talking directly to His disciples because sometimes He changes the person from second person to third person! THEN and THEN ONLY is He referring to people in the future.
However, His PRINCIPLE purpose in addressing His students at all is to warn THEM of the impending doom to come in 40 years!
Furthermore, you are wrong about how prophecy works. A prophecy often consists of many lesser prophecies strung together. That’s why we can look at a prophetic book, such as Zechariah, and see the individual prophecies within the book, even though the whole of the book is a single prophecy from God. Even within the smaller prophecies, there may be several prophetic points that are linked together, and each of these prophetic points may be independently fulfilled. Consider Yeshua`s words in Luke 4:
Luke 4:16-21
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
KJV
However, He didn’t say that the whole prophecy was fulfilled, just the portion that He read. Indeed, the prophecy goes on…
Isa. 61:1-5ff
1 The Spirit of the LORD God is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
…
KJV
These verses from 2b and on were NOT fulfilled at that time! Therefore, SOME individual prophecies can be fulfilled while others are left to a later time.
Your words: ‘Are you telling me that looking upon current events, you can’t see a time in the future where Jerusalem will again be surrounded by armies? That you can’t see a time close to or associated with the return of Christ, that all six aspects will finally be fulfilled in the same time frame? I would think if you believe in a future “rescue” you must or why would they need rescuing in the first place?
Since that time, is it possible that some believers on an individual basis WERE actually betrayed by kinfolk in places like the Middle East, China, etc.? Can you not see a time coming where there will be a global holocaust on believers just like in WW2, inspired by the anti-christ? The bible predicts it in both Revelation and Daniel. THAT is what will make it the worst time ever! Just the sheer number Christian and Messianic believers killed or persecuted will be much, much greater than 6 million, on a GLOBAL scale, not localized to one continent!’
Sure, I can see such things happening in the near future; HOWEVER, THIS prophecy is NOT ABOUT THAT TIME! It is about the destruction of Yerushalayim in 70 A.D. Other prophecies must be consulted for information about those things happening in the near future to which you are referring.
It’s WRONG to take fulfilled prophetic Scripture out of context and make it look like it’s UNFULFILLED prophecy! It’s deceptive, and it’s a LIE! Furthermore, it confuses people about how prophecy works. When GOD’S prophets spoke His words, the test of a valid prophet of God was that their prophecies would come true 100% of the time! IF those prophecies had more than one fulfillment, then HOW IN THE WORLD can a person determine whether that prophecy has truly been fulfilled or not? THINK ABOUT IT!
It’s just like taking Romans 10:13 for “personal deliverance from sin.” That verse is NOT about a person’s justification from God. HOWEVER, there are OTHER verses that fit that subject much better, like 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Yeshua`s own parable in Luke 18:9-14. Romans 10:13 is a quotation from Joel 2:32 which is part of the prophecy about the national deliverance of Israel.
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