Daniel 9:25 - the messiah the prince

[David in NJ]

Not sure what you mean... I was saying that the way you respond to people is often filled with arrogance. I simply cannot understand why you feel the need to speak with folks the way you do...sorry.

If you think that my speaking from the the Holy Spirit is arrogant, then you might as well accuse JESUS and the Apostles as well.

The pharisees thought they were arrogant, blasphemers, law breakers, empowered by the Devil, dishonoring the Temple, dishonoring Moses and so on.

 

[CTK]

If you think that my speaking from the the Holy Spirit is arrogant, then you might as well accuse JESUS and the Apostles as well.

The pharisees thought they were arrogant, blasphemers, law breakers, empowered by the Devil, dishonoring the Temple, dishonoring Moses and so on.

I believe I am not able to put you on the same level as the Holy Spirit, Jesus or the Apostles....

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes, that is when He was anointed. Remember, the Hebrew word nagiyd translates to "Anointed One" but in the English translations it is written as "Prince."

The specific title "Prince" — Greek archegos only shows up twice in the New Testament, and both times it's tied directly to the resurrection, not the baptism.

Look at the wording itself in Acts:

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

God raised Jesus from the dead TO BE (as in at that point he became Prince). I was leaning more toward Pentecost but Acts seems to be saying it was the resurrection.

 

[David in NJ]

David everything you said is absolutely true but would you mind trying to see that what you are saying AND the AOD are NOT mutually exclusive?

And this is what I recently asked the other "David" in this thread to address:

1) What does the term "abomination" mean"?

2) The second question must address the second half this most cryptic term (AOD).... what is the term "desolation" mean or refer to?

3) Only then can we put together these two words and ask, "what was so abominable to cause this desolation we identified in #2 above?

AGREE

Let's investigate together.

[will come] the abomination
שִׁקּוּצִים֙ (šiq·qū·ṣîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 8251: 1) detestable thing or idol, abominable thing, abomination, idol, detested thing

hat causes desolation,
מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם (mə·šō·mêm)
Verb - Piel - Participle - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 8074: 1) to be desolate, be appalled, stun, stupefy 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to be desolated, be deflowered, be deserted, be appalled 1a2) to be appalled, be awestruck 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to be desolated, be made desolate 1b2) to be appalled 1c) (Polel) 1c1) to be stunned 1c2) appalling, causing horror (participle) 1c2a) horror-causer, appaller (subst) 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to devastate, ravage, make desolated 1d2) to appal, show horror 1e) (Hophal) to lay desolate, be desolated 1f) (Hithpolel) 1f1) to cause to be desolate 1f2) to be appalled, be astounded 1f3) to cause oneself desolation, caus

 

[David in NJ]

I believe I am not able to put you on the same level as the Holy Spirit, Jesus or the Apostles....

AGREE

Did not JESUS invite us to receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[CTK]

The specific title "Prince" — Greek archegos only shows up twice in the New Testament, and both times it's tied directly to the resurrection, not the baptism.

Look at the wording itself in Acts:

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

God raised Jesus from the dead TO BE (as in at that point he became Prince). I was leaning more toward Pentecost but Acts seems to be saying it was the resurrection.

Daniel chapter 9 is written in Hebrew not Greek.

 

[CTK]

AGREE

Let's investigate together.

[will come] the abomination
שִׁקּוּצִים֙ (šiq·qū·ṣîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 8251: 1) detestable thing or idol, abominable thing, abomination, idol, detested thing

hat causes desolation,
מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם (mə·šō·mêm)
Verb - Piel - Participle - masculine singular
Strong's Hebrew 8074: 1) to be desolate, be appalled, stun, stupefy 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to be desolated, be deflowered, be deserted, be appalled 1a2) to be appalled, be awestruck 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to be desolated, be made desolate 1b2) to be appalled 1c) (Polel) 1c1) to be stunned 1c2) appalling, causing horror (participle) 1c2a) horror-causer, appaller (subst) 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to devastate, ravage, make desolated 1d2) to appal, show horror 1e) (Hophal) to lay desolate, be desolated 1f) (Hithpolel) 1f1) to cause to be desolate 1f2) to be appalled, be astounded 1f3) to cause oneself desolation, caus

Now put those two words together and apply them to the prophecies in Daniel 9.

 

[David in NJ]

Now put those two words together and apply them to the prophecies in Daniel 9.

Applied.

 

[IndianaRob]

You are not even remotely being logical here. Per your reasoning you are missing an entire 3.5 years. If Christ died in the midst of the week, He obviously rose in the midst of the week as well. Plus, Pentecost would also be close to the midst of the week. Pentecost certainly didn't happen 3.5 years after Christ rose. Nor did Christ rise 3.5 years after He died. Once again, you have an entire half of a week not being accounted for. The midst of the 70th week does not equal 70 completed weeks. It equals 69.5 completed weeks. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression----not 69.5 weeks instead. 70 weeks = 490 years. 69.5 weeks = 486.5 years. The latter alone does not fulfill all of Daniel 9:24, the former does. But I'm not saying 486.5 years did not fulfill any of verse 24. It clearly did. It just didn't fulfill everything since 70 weeks have to be fulfilled in order for all of verse 24 to be in the past.

Therefore, the remainder of the 70th week is recorded in the NT involving the 42 month reign of the beast, obviously.

The Bible says weeks - 7 days. I know you think it’s week of years so yes, it probably does sound absurd from that perspective.

In the literal week's reckoning, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, and at the end of that week He rose from the dead, confirming the covenant God made with Abraham.

 

[IndianaRob]

Isaiah is before Daniel

Moses is before Isaiah

Moses prophesied of the Prince of Peace under a different Name
His prophecy does not declare a 'future' naming BUT that His Name of Peace is from Eternity

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Shall be called means not yet called.

 

[CTK]

The Bible says weeks - 7 days. I know you think it’s week of years so yes, it probably does sound absurd from that perspective.

In the literal week's reckoning, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, and at the end of that week He rose from the dead, confirming the covenant God made with Abraham.

I am pretty sure it is weeks of years or 70 weeks of 7 or 490 literal years.

 

[CTK]

Applied.

Ok, how have you applied this to chapter 9?

 

[IndianaRob]

God Says it was His Delight for His SON to suffer in our place so that we could receive forgiveness of sins and Salvation.

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

Can you and @CTK find a verse that is specific as this prophecy from Isaiah that declares JESUS dying on the Cross as an "Abomination"?

@CTK , why would you call God's gifts for His Church/us "arrogant"?

Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

 

[IndianaRob]

You claim to be a Christian but apparently don't even understand the basics of Christianity. We all helped murder Christ since it is because of us He had to die to begin with, in order to save some of mankind. Had Christ not died and rose, every single person's fate would be the 2nd death, no exceptions. IMO, it is outright blasphemy to associate abominations with that of the death of Christ.

You're right that it's our sin that made Christ's death necessary. Isaiah 53 and Romans 3 both say that plainly, and I'm not disputing it.

But there's a difference between "our sin necessitated the cross" and "every person who ever lived personally murdered Him."

Scripture names specific people responsible for the actual act. Acts 4:27 names Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, the people of Israel present at the time.

My point about "abomination" was about that specific historical act, real people rejecting and killing the innocent Son sent to save.

 

[IndianaRob]

Daniel chapter 9 is written in Hebrew not Greek.

How does that change anything? Is Daniel not a Prince, is Acts not a Prince? You’ll have to give more information on what you’re saying here.

 

[IndianaRob]

I am pretty sure it is weeks of years or 70 weeks of 7 or 490 literal years.

I’m pretty sure it’s literal weeks.

Can you point me to any other passages in the Bible where shâbûa‛ means weeks of years?

 

[CTK]

How does that change anything? Is Daniel not a Prince, is Acts not a Prince? You’ll have to give more information on what you’re saying here.

Sorry for not getting my point across. Here is how I might ask you to look at those verses in Daniel - they are specifically referring to Jesus during His first coming.


If we were to read Daniel 9:24-27 in the Hebrew language, we would find that Daniel will use the Hebrew word "nagiyd" only twice; once in verse 25 and once in verse 26. That is it.

In verse 25, God purposely attaches this word "nagiyd" to Messiah. God the Father is declaring that Jesus is The Messiah, the Anointed One. He is the One that was baptized in the Jordan by John.

In verse 26, God purposely uses the same Hebrew word "nagiyd" when He prophesies about the "people of the anointed one who is to come."

When these verses were translated into English, they were both translated as "prince."

But the "Anointed One" in verse 25 refers to Jesus the Messiah, while the "anointed one" in verse 26 refers to an individual who will come after the destruction of the city and the temple AND is also from the people who destroyed the city and the temple in 70 AD.

So, it appears the English word "prince" is causing some confusion and I can understand that... and I can assure you there are many other verses in Daniel where the Hebrew words were translated the same but have very different meanings within the verses.

I hope this helps and if not, please ask...and I will try again.

 

[IndianaRob]

Sorry for not getting my point across. Here is how I might ask you to look at those verses in Daniel - they are specifically referring to Jesus during His first coming.


If we were to read Daniel 9:24-27 in the Hebrew language, we would find that Daniel will use the Hebrew word "nagiyd" only twice; once in verse 25 and once in verse 26. That is it.

In verse 25, God purposely attaches this word "nagiyd" to Messiah. God the Father is declaring that Jesus is The Messiah, the Anointed One. He is the One that was baptized in the Jordan by John.

In verse 26, God purposely uses the same Hebrew word "nagiyd" when He prophesies about the "people of the anointed one who is to come."

When these verses were translated into English, they were both translated as "prince."

But the "Anointed One" in verse 25 refers to Jesus the Messiah, while the "anointed one" in verse 26 refers to an individual who will come after the destruction of the city and the temple AND is also from the people who destroyed the city and the temple in 70 AD.

So, it appears the English word "prince" is causing some confusion and I can understand that... and I can assure you there are many other verses in Daniel where the Hebrew words were translated the same but have very different meanings within the verses.

I hope this helps and if not, please ask...and I will try again.

We just see things differently, not a problem.

 

[CTK]

I’m pretty sure it’s literal weeks.

Can you point me to any other passages in the Bible where shâbûa‛ means weeks of years?

There is no other verse in the OT where the individual term “shabu” can be found.

However, in verse 24 Gabriel deliberately writes:

שָׁבֻעִים שִׁבְעִים
shābuʿim shivʿim
“seventy sevens/weeks”

 

[David in NJ]

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Shall be called means not yet called.

Did you SEE this?

Moses prophesied of the Prince of Peace under a different Name that has the same meaning.

Moses prophecy does not declare a 'future' naming BUT that His Name of Peace is from Eternity