Daniel's Abomination Of Desolation In Matthew 24:15, A Future Event Unfulfilled

[farouk]

You never answered my post.

Hi @Waiting on him Good to see you!

I was a bit confused by Truth7t7's comment...

 

[Waiting on him]

Hi @Waiting on him Good to see you!

I was a bit confused by Truth7t7's comment...

With some men all they can see is death, destruction, and evil. They eat the fruit of it.

Many are awaiting a bodily return Of Christ. We are the body of Christ, if within us, from where does He return?

 

[Marty fox]

They are not incompatible with the ref. in John's First Epistle to 'many antichrists'.

(cc @Naomi25 )

Amen John’s antichrist in his epistles is very different from John’s sea beast of revelation

 

[Truth7t7]

You never answered my post.

I believe I did, however repost it or direct me to its number?

 

[Truth7t7]

Amen John’s antichrist in his epistles is very different from John’s sea beast of revelation

John in his epistle spoke of the general (Spirit Of Antichrist) those that deny Jesus Came in the flesh

Whenever the words (The Antichrist) is used with Preterist, many divert/deflect to John's epistle in representation of the words

 

[Waiting on him]

I believe I did, however repost it or direct me to its number?

Daniel 9:27 KJV
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Who do you see as being the desolate in this verse?

 

[Truth7t7]

Daniel 9:27 KJV
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Who do you see as being the desolate in this verse?

Scripture strongly suggest the "Future" image of the beast being set up is the abomination that makes desolate?

Daniel 12:9-13KJV
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Revelation 13:13-15KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[Marty fox]

John in his epistle spoke of the general (Spirit Of Antichrist) those that deny Jesus Came in the flesh

Whenever the words (The Antichrist) is used with Preterist, many divert/deflect to John's epistle in representation of the words

Yet John also wrote revelation and didn’t use the term antichrist once. John’s description of the antichrist and the beast are very different.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yet John also wrote revelation and didn’t use the term antichrist once. John’s description of the antichrist and the beast are very different.

The Standard Preterist name game on (The Antichrist)

John never used the term (The Antichrist) in his epistles as you claim, it was the general spirit of Antichrist in those that deny Jesus came in the flesh

The word Trinity or Rapture isnt in the bible, and is used by many, and you know well what they mean

When a person in eschatology use the term (The Antichrist) you know well what that means also, thats my opinion

Many within eschatology use the catch all phrase (The Antichrist) when speaking of the figure below

All represent the same future human man (The Antichrist) "Unfulfilled"

Daniel speaks of (The Little Horn) Daniel 7:8-11

Paul speaks of (The Man Of Sin) 2 Thessalonians 2:3

John's Speaks of (The Beast) Revelation 13:1-5

 

[Naomi25]

You quoted Farouk not yourself in validation of his/her comments regarding 1 John 2

Yes (The Spirit Of Antichrist) in 1 John 2 is used by many, including Preterist to discredit a future evil man (The Antichrist) when the word (The Antichrist) is used, I never claimed you were a preterist

I ‘quoted’ him as far as I referred to his previous comment…just as I did yours. But in my reply I quoted the passage from 1 John 2, referencing many direct words from that verse….it was to that I was referring.

I’m not actually aware of how Preterists deal with 1 John 2, and if, as you say, they dismiss his clear reference to an antichrist who is to come, then indeed I believe they are in error. It is not just John’s reference here. As you’ve pointed out, there are several passages that point to a final man. Most of them are convincing in this manner, as they speak of this man being alive and active when and for Christ’s return…as he is to defeat him at his return. This is rather conclusive in my mind.

 

[Naomi25]

We are the body of Christ.

Ah. Forgive me. But…I am unsure what you are attempting to say here. Yes, clearly we are the body of Christ. Your point….thanks!

 

[Truth7t7]

I ‘quoted’ him as far as I referred to his previous comment…just as I did yours. But in my reply I quoted the passage from 1 John 2, referencing many direct words from that verse….it was to that I was referring.

I’m not actually aware of how Preterists deal with 1 John 2, and if, as you say, they dismiss his clear reference to an antichrist who is to come, then indeed I believe they are in error. It is not just John’s reference here. As you’ve pointed out, there are several passages that point to a final man. Most of them are convincing in this manner, as they speak of this man being alive and active when and for Christ’s return…as he is to defeat him at his return. This is rather conclusive in my mind.

Post #69 above will get you familiar with the Preterist name game on the words (The Antichrist)

 

[Marty fox]

The Standard Preterist name game on (The Antichrist)

The word Trinity or Rapture isnt in the bible, and is used by many, and you know well what they mean

When a person in eschatology use the term (The Antichrist) you know well what that means also, thats my opinion

Many within eschatology use the catch all phrase (The Antichrist) when speaking of the figure below

All represent the same future human man (The Antichrist) "Unfulfilled"

Daniel speaks of (The Little Horn) Daniel 7:8-11

Paul speaks of (The Man Of Sin) 2 Thessalonians 2:3

John's Speaks of (The Beast) Revelation 13:1-5

It’s not just the term it’s the difference in descriptions of the personalities that John uses

What people get confused with the interpretation of scripture is that’s it’s messages

 

[Truth7t7]

It’s not just the term it’s the difference in descriptions of the personalities that John uses

What people get confused with the interpretation of scripture is that’s it’s messages

"The Preterist Name Game"

You Use The Word "Rapture" Not Found In My KJV Bible, You Know Well What The Words (The Antichrist) Is Referring To, And Its Not John's Epistles

Once Again, When a person in eschatology use the term (The Antichrist) you know well what that means, thats my opinion

Many within eschatology use the catch all phrase (The Antichrist) when speaking of the figure below

All represent the same future human man (The Antichrist) "Unfulfilled"

Daniel speaks of (The Little Horn) Daniel 7:8-11

Paul speaks of (The Man Of Sin) 2 Thessalonians 2:3

John's Speaks of (The Beast) Revelation 13:1-5

 

[Naomi25]

The Standard Preterist name game on (The Antichrist)

John never used the term (The Antichrist) in his epistles as you claim, it was the general spirit of Antichrist in those that deny Jesus came in the flesh

The word Trinity or Rapture isnt in the bible, and is used by many, and you know well what they mean

When a person in eschatology use the term (The Antichrist) you know well what that means also, thats my opinion

Many within eschatology use the catch all phrase (The Antichrist) when speaking of the figure below

All represent the same future human man (The Antichrist) "Unfulfilled"

Daniel speaks of (The Little Horn) Daniel 7:8-11

Paul speaks of (The Man Of Sin) 2 Thessalonians 2:3

John's Speaks of (The Beast) Revelation 13:1-5

Yet John also wrote revelation and didn’t use the term antichrist once. John’s description of the antichrist and the beast are very different.

Well, on first blush, I’d have to say two things, I suppose. First…the difference between ‘spirit of antichrist’ and just a general reference to ‘many antichrist’…is not a lot. If a person HAS the spirit of antichrist, in large part, they ARE antichrist. They are just not THE antichrist, the one who ‘you have heard is coming’.

The second thing I’d say…to the comment made by Marty is…it’s a bit pedantic to try and rest the whole of an argument on the fact that the two books John wrote don’t use the same phrase, or have exact parameters.
I think we need to take all the information into account. First, I’d say 1 John, while inspired, is clearly a book written by John, in John’s hand, expressing things as John would. Revelation is, from the beginning to the end, made clear to us, the Revelation of Jesus Christ. John is simply writing down what he sees and hears. The words, the pictures…are not his. He is seeing heavenly realities, which we may expect to differ from how John interpreted the inspired moving of the Spirit as he wrote his book.
The second thing I’d say is…when we correlate ALL information about this ‘end of days’ figure…what do we see then? Paul’s outline in 2 Thess 2 correlates closely to much of Daniel. Daniel is seen again, like it has cast its shadow, in Revelation. And 1 John 2 absolutely affirms that, just as both Daniel and 2 Thess 2, that we may expect this figure to arise in the future. Put together, it paints a picture….no matter the terms used for this individual. The characteristics seen within him are clear.

 

[Timtofly]

The earthly Temple and Jerusalem were made desolate.
I did not mention Satan or paradise.

Jesus claims that at His Second Appearing, He would establish His throne.

You then said, "No, it is established already".

We are talking about the throne that Satan is allowed to make desolate. Satan did not desolate Jesus on the Cross. Satan did not make the already desolate temple more desolate 40 years after the Cross. Satan cannot make desolate the throne currently in heaven. So why all the Scripture claiming this man of lawlessness, ie Satan makes anything desolate? Why does Daniel 9:27 claim that Jesus Christ as Prince will allow this desolation to occur? Since none of the historical incidences that have already happened have not literally involved Satan or his puppet to sit in Jerusalem and the temple and make it desolate, it is still in the future.

Jesus claimed in the OD, "at His appearing".

 

[Timtofly]

Prophetic foreshortening means Daniel would not have had to see 3 events. Not unless you also insist that the OT prophets had to have seen (and understood) that their Messiah was coming in two separate comings.
The simple fact is that the Prophets didn’t always understand what they saw, and this is because it was often given to them in ways that were almost impossible to understand from their vantage point.

You claim that Daniel had no real prophetic meaning in the desolation of Antiochus E or 70AD…that Matt 24 was only ‘followed by chance’ as well. But like everyone else making claims, you have no biblical proof for this.

The Preterists could very well be wrong… I am not a Preterist, but I feel that rejecting the stark coincidences that aligned on both occasions makes dismissing them, at least as prefiguring events, as dangerous. How many Pharisees and Jews dismissed Jesus, do you think, saying that the fact that his life ‘matched the prophecies’ was just a coincidence, or he had manipulated them to do so? How many of them ignored those facts by pushing their coming Messiah off into the future…for a more ‘perfect fulfilment’?

I do, as it happens, believe there is good scriptural arguments to suggest there WILL be a final fulfilment…I just think it behooves us to be cautious that we do not fall into these same traps…that we consider, carefully, all historical and biblical cases, and not to dismiss things simply because we have our hearts set on something else, or our allegiance already aligned with some system.

Daniel 9, the whole chapter has nothing to do with Antiochus Epiphanies. That would be chapter 8 and again in chapter 11. So Daniel 9 has nothing to do with what Jesus spoke about in the OD.

Daniel 9:26 is about Jesus as Messiah. Daniel 9:27 is about Jesus as Prince. 26 is the beginning of desolation, ie 70AD, and ends with a future desolation of Jerusalem. Unless you can show the historical record of this part:

"and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

Whether literal or symbolic, when did the earth open up and swallow a threat to Israel at any time in history?

There is no human AC. So nothing in Daniel, the OD, nor Revelation will claim this human AC. There is the action of Satan to completely separate the church from the whole Torah of Moses. It started with the Greeks as western science. It started with the church in Rome, as a whole body of law completely foreign to Both the OT and the NT. That is why at the Reformation, many were crying foul at the RCC. Yet the science part kept going to this day, when Genesis 1 can no longer be taught as science, but some ancient mythology. Even the church has in most part turned it into allegory.

Yes, there will be a final fulfillment, but after the Second Coming. It cannot be before, because Christ the Prince has to come to have a throne in Jerusalem and a temple where this throne is. Only then can the prophecy be fulfilled of a future AoD. This is not about the body of Jesus, the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, nor the spiritual body of the church, and definitely not the current reign of Christ in heaven.

It has not happened yet.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus claims that at His Second Appearing, He would establish His throne.

You then said, "No, it is established already".

We are talking about the throne that Satan is allowed to make desolate. Satan did not desolate Jesus on the Cross. Satan did not make the already desolate temple more desolate 40 years after the Cross. Satan cannot make desolate the throne currently in heaven. So why all the Scripture claiming this man of lawlessness, ie Satan makes anything desolate? Why does Daniel 9:27 claim that Jesus Christ as Prince will allow this desolation to occur? Since none of the historical incidences that have already happened have not literally involved Satan or his puppet to sit in Jerusalem and the temple and make it desolate, it is still in the future.

Jesus claimed in the OD, "at His appearing".

Jesus Christ will return in fire and Final Judgement, dissolving this earth by fire

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[Naomi25]

Daniel 9, the whole chapter has nothing to do with Antiochus Epiphanies. That would be chapter 8 and again in chapter 11. So Daniel 9 has nothing to do with what Jesus spoke about in the OD.

Daniel 9:26 is about Jesus as Messiah. Daniel 9:27 is about Jesus as Prince. 26 is the beginning of desolation, ie 70AD, and ends with a future desolation of Jerusalem. Unless you can show the historical record of this part:

"and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

Whether literal or symbolic, when did the earth open up and swallow a threat to Israel at any time in history?

There is no human AC. So nothing in Daniel, the OD, nor Revelation will claim this human AC. There is the action of Satan to completely separate the church from the whole Torah of Moses. It started with the Greeks as western science. It started with the church in Rome, as a whole body of law completely foreign to Both the OT and the NT. That is why at the Reformation, many were crying foul at the RCC. Yet the science part kept going to this day, when Genesis 1 can no longer be taught as science, but some ancient mythology. Even the church has in most part turned it into allegory.

Yes, there will be a final fulfillment, but after the Second Coming. It cannot be before, because Christ the Prince has to come to have a throne in Jerusalem and a temple where this throne is. Only then can the prophecy be fulfilled of a future AoD. This is not about the body of Jesus, the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, nor the spiritual body of the church, and definitely not the current reign of Christ in heaven.

It has not happened yet.

I…followed very little of that.

 

[farouk]

I…followed very little of that.

@Naomi25 Some of these prophetic threads can be rather difficult to follow...