1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Daniel's (Little Horn) Abomination In Desolation, A (Future) Event Unfulfilled

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Truth7t7, Jul 21, 2021 at 10:55 AM.

  1. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    343
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Daniel's (Little Horn)

    This "Future" figure will be present on earth to see the (Second Coming) of Jesus Christ and final judgement, as this figure will be slain by Jesus Christ and cast into the lake of fire (Future) unfulfilled

    "Future" (Second Coming, Final Judgement) Below

    Daniel 7:8-11KJV
    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
    9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
    10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
    11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) A "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

    Merriam-Webster
    Definition of consummation


    1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
    2: the ultimate end

    Daniel 9:27KJV
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021 at 11:01 AM
    Heart2Soul likes this.
  2. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    @Truth7t7 ; I think it’s interesting to look at some of these passages side by side.

    Daniel 7:8
    [8] I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
    [3] Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, [4] who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

    Revelation 13:5-6
    [5] And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. [6] It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven.



    In these 3 passages we see this ‘horn’, ‘man of lawlessness’ or ‘beast’, speaking outrageous things against God.

    Daniel 7:21-22
    [21] As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, [22] until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

    2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
    [9] The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, [10] and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    Revelation 13:7-8
    [7] Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, [8] and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.


    In these 3 passages we see that this person will dominate the nations; persecuting the Christians and deceiving those who do not believe.

    Daniel 7:10-11
    [10] A stream of fire issued
    and came out from before him;
    a thousand thousands served him,
    and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
    the
    court sat in judgment,
    and the books were opened.
    [11] “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

    2 Thessalonians 2:8
    [8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

    Revelation 19:20
    [20] And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.


    And then we see that this ‘horn’, ‘man’, ‘beast’, is killed at Christ’s return; the time when books are opened, when God sits on his heavenly throne.


    The similarity of these passages and themes makes me agree with you. Despite how we may view other passages in Daniel or perhaps parts of the Olivet Discourse, these verses do seem to be speaking of something…a person…that will be on the scene AT Christ’s return.
     
    Truth7t7 and Heart2Soul like this.
  3. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,551
    Likes Received:
    10,154
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    And that is how you let scripture interpret scripture! Glory to God!
     
    Truth7t7 likes this.
  4. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    I just wish it was that easy most of the time. Those passages pretty much screamed their similarities…so many of them make you work…and work…for it. And then still hide!
     
    Truth7t7 and Heart2Soul like this.
  5. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,551
    Likes Received:
    10,154
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Jeremiah is an excellent study that correlates with the new testament.
     
  6. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    343
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The Great Trib Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Church Is Protected

    There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

    The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

    The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

    All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

    Ephesians 1:13KJV
    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    Ephesians 4:30KJV
    30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

    Revelation 9:3-6KJV
    3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
    4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
    5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
    6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

    Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

    Revelation 11:3-6
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    Revelation 16:1-11KJV
    1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
    2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
    3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
    4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
    5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
    6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
    7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
    8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
    9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
    10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
    11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
     
  7. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    How funny! I’ve just started on that book! I’ll have to see if the NT connections pop for me or if I’m going to have to work for them!
     
    Heart2Soul likes this.
  8. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,551
    Likes Received:
    10,154
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Jeremiah was called the weeping prophet because he wept when he saw what would become of man and the world....his prophetic visions were full of woes that mankind would suffer.
     
  9. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Mmmm. Now some of these things…I’m still pondering over. I think, with the seal thing, you are correct. It’s most likely the seal spoken of in Revelation is the same ‘sealed with the Holy Spirit’ referred to in other NT passages. The references and therefore correlations are there. We ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit…why expect we must be sealed with something else?

    I’ve heard different theories on who the ‘two witnesses’ are, Moses is frequently one of them…not sure I’ve heard Aaron before. But again, the correlation between the plagues/judgments in Revelation and the plagues/judgments in Egypt are too similar to totally dismiss, so I suppose it’s a possibility. Myself, I think I perhaps lean towards the idea that the two witnesses are actually just the faithful church of God at that time. For this reason:

    Revelation 11:3-4
    [3] And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”
    [4] These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.


    At the beginning of the book, we are told:

    Revelation 1:20
    [20] As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches
    .

    There are only two ‘churches’ in Rev 1-3 who are truly and fully faithful; Smyrna and Philadelphia. When we look at a verse like this:

    Titus 2:11-15
    [11] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, [12] training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, [13] waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, [14] who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. [15] Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.


    We realise that Christ has given authority to teach, rebuke and renounce ungodliness.
    Now…I’m not dogmatic in this interpretation, it could very well be two actual individuals who call down curses in a very OT sort of way. But, if we look at it in a NT way, we already have what we need for the two witnesses to stand up; the need for a faithful and pure church on the earth, and a corrupted world to call out against.
    I remain open and unconvinced either way, I think.
     
    Heart2Soul likes this.
  10. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    My bible study group has been going through Hosea. It both makes my heart extremely heavy and sort of joyous at the same time. It’s hard not to read the judgment God is calling down on the people for their idolatry and wickedness with a sense of dread, even knowing its fully justified and right. And it makes me thankful that I live this side of the cross. I don’t suppose that I’m any better than those foolish people, always stumbling and relying on their own thoughts and wants, but at least I have a person I can doggedly fix my gaze on through my own stupidity.
    How good is God that the would face his children after multiple, repeated betrayals, and still save us?
     
    Truth7t7, farouk and Heart2Soul like this.
  11. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    19,754
    Likes Received:
    11,217
    @Heart2Soul I love how in the middle of the Lamentations of Jeremiah there are gems of testimony to His great faithfulness. :)
     
    Heart2Soul likes this.
  12. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    19,754
    Likes Received:
    11,217
    @Naomi25 'Amazing' can be a hackneyed word sometimes, but the God of Hosea is truly amazing!
     
    Naomi25 and Heart2Soul like this.
  13. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    343
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Its my belief and opinion the (Two Witnesses) will be (Enoch/Elijah)

    Moses/Aaron were given to simply show the plagues upon Egypt, and the exact same events seen in Revelation 16:1-11, they both died physical deaths

    The scripture states its appointed unto man once to die, (Enoch/Elijah) never saw physical death and for this they are my pick

    Hebrews 9:27KJV
    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
     
  14. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    343
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The scripture below shows (Two Witnesses) that will bring literal plagues, upon a literal world, they will have literal bodies that will die, lay in a literal street in Jerusalem, as a literal world watches making merry over their deaths.

    The scripture clearly teaches the (Two Witnesses) I believe (Enoch/Elijah) will be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

    To symbolize this away as being (The Church), would be injustice to Gods words before your eyes below

    (Two Witnesses) "Personal Pronouns": They, Their, Them


    Revelation 11:3-15KJV
    3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
    6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
    7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
    8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
    9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
    10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
    11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
    13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021 at 1:26 PM
  15. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    This is the most usual interpretation, and I think, if the Witnesses turn out to be two actual people, this is most likely what I’d go with as well. Because of the reasons you stated.
    But also I’d be tempted to say it could be Moses and Elijah because of the fact that both Moses and Elijah showed up on the Mt of transfiguration with Jesus. That says something to me, like, perhaps they’ve not quite finished the work God has for them and are at full rest. I don’t know…its pure speculation. It could turn out to be someone like John the Baptist, that man was a fire and brimstone preacher like no-ones business! I can just see him getting into it.
     
  16. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Like I said, I’m not opposed to the view that they will be two literal people.
    In point of fact, I’m still at the place where I’m muddling over in my mind how much of Revelation to take figuratively and how much to take literally. I mean, I take it all as very real and true, of course, but I feel some go too far one way, others the other way. I lean towards the idea that one ought to take the most outrageous and obvious symbols as just that. A lot of the numbers too, I feel are clearly used in a symbolic way, as they are often in the rest of scripture. But, I think I’m coming to the conclusion that there is much that is simply not figurative, which is cool. But it means I’m still shuffling it all around in my head.
     
  17. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    343
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Much of the Revelation is symbolic, however not the aspect of the (Two Witnesses) and literal plagues the two prophets will bring upon the literal world
     
  18. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    I agree, much of it is, but where many would assume it must be, I don’t feel we necessarily need to push the symbology.
    Take Rev 9, for example, the creatures released from the bottomless pit to torment people. Many people try to fit the descriptions of those creatures onto ‘real world’ objects. However, I’d say in a book that is primarily describing a war between spiritual powers, both seen and unseen, its acceptable to let these be what they are; demonic creatures. The bible and history, both Jewish and secular, are full of ‘divine’ beings that are a compilation of human/animalistic components…it has precedence. So, you know, I just think it’s more likely that they are what they sound like, rather than helicopters with women behind the wheel! I know not all ‘literalists’ hold that view, but its a rather good example of how far one can go trying to smoosh something into your own system!
     
  19. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,486
    Likes Received:
    343
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The subject is the (Two Witnesses) that you have stated represent (The Church) Wrong

    They will be literal tangible prophets returned, in a literal tangible earth, bringing literal plagues just as Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

    Simple
     
  20. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,680
    Likes Received:
    1,596
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    I gave a view that I thought was backed by strong biblical argument. I also said I wasn’t absolutely sure it was the correct view, nor that I needed it to be the correct view.
    And frankly, I think anyone who wants to stand up and declare they KNOW anything for 100% certain about Revelation is either not well read enough or buying their own press.
    In either case, I was not insisting on any particular thing, so I don’t know why it matters so much to you to insist I was wrong.
     
Loading...