you said “Many people try to fit the descriptions of those creatures onto ‘real world’ objects. However, I’d say in a book that is primarily describing a war between spiritual powers, both seen and unseen,…”
“So, you know, I just think it’s more likely that they are what they sound like, rather than helicopters with women behind the wheel! I know not all ‘literalists’ hold that view, but its a rather good example of how far one can go trying to smoosh something into your own system!”
Could not agree more on what you said as a good example “of how far one can go trying to smoosh something into your own system” with all due respect that is why I struggle with Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(Also pertaining to the thread on “why I believe in the rapture”)
Luke 21:26-28 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. [27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
what is your input on coming in the clouds?
@Naomi25 before I forget. Acts 1:7-13 And he said unto them,
It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. [8]
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up;
and a cloud received him out of their sight. [10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
1) it is not for you to know the times and seasons which the Father has put in his own power. But you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you.
2) he was received out of their sight. When thinking of cloud, it makes me consider our prayers could not pass through because of the cloud (vital with the below) and where God said: This is my beloved Son, hear Him. Him shall I receive, Him shall I hear. John 16:14-28 He shall glorify me:
for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [16]
A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? [18] They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. [19] Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? [20] Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. [21] A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. [22]
And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. [23] And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. [24] Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. [25] These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. [26] At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. [28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Consider the “A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? [18] They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. [19] Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?”
With their going to wait to receive power and the cloud receive Him out of their sight? With why do you stand here looking up at the sky? For He Will come unto you the same way He was received into the cloud out of their sight “look up for your redemption draws near”
12] Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. [13]
And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
“And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.”
Hope that makes sense. Did He not truly mean what He told them standing their looking up at the sky (instead of looking up toward the Father) when the cloud received Him out of their sight? A little while, and ye shall not see me:
and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us,
A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
…and your sorrow shall be turned to rejoicing; joy no man can take from you.