Daniel's (Little Horn) Abomination In Desolation, A (Future) Event Unfulfilled

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Truth7t7

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I gave a view that I thought was backed by strong biblical argument. I also said I wasn’t absolutely sure it was the correct view, nor that I needed it to be the correct view.
And frankly, I think anyone who wants to stand up and declare they KNOW anything for 100% certain about Revelation is either not well read enough or buying their own press.
In either case, I was not insisting on any particular thing, so I don’t know why it matters so much to you to insist I was wrong.
It's my "opinion" the view of the (Two Witnesses) being the Church is wrong, the scripture clearly describes the "Personal Pronouns" They, Them, Their

No harm no foul, you can believe as you like, thanks for the response

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Naomi25

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It's my "opinion" the view of the (Two Witnesses) being the Church is wrong, the scripture clearly describes the "Personal Pronouns" They, Them, Their

No harm no foul, you can believe as you like, thanks for the response

Jesus Is The Lord
I suppose everyone can believe as they like, but as I told you, I haven’t in any way, shape or form reached a firm decision on this…thus can hardly be said to have a solid belief on it, erroneous or otherwise!

I think its not a bad point, the use of the personal pronouns…I’ll have to read it through again with that in mind.
 
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Naomi25

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@Naomi25 Interesting expression there! :)
Yes, rather absurd…but I’m just forwarding on what I know some believe. The creatures have “long hair” you see…thus we must expect, if they’re really helicopters, that John saw women piloting them. It makes perfect sense. To some.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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I agree, much of it is, but where many would assume it must be, I don’t feel we necessarily need to push the symbology.
Take Rev 9, for example, the creatures released from the bottomless pit to torment people. Many people try to fit the descriptions of those creatures onto ‘real world’ objects. However, I’d say in a book that is primarily describing a war between spiritual powers, both seen and unseen, its acceptable to let these be what they are; demonic creatures. The bible and history, both Jewish and secular, are full of ‘divine’ beings that are a compilation of human/animalistic components…it has precedence. So, you know, I just think it’s more likely that they are what they sound like, rather than helicopters with women behind the wheel! I know not all ‘literalists’ hold that view, but its a rather good example of how far one can go trying to smoosh something into your own system!

you said “Many people try to fit the descriptions of those creatures onto ‘real world’ objects. However, I’d say in a book that is primarily describing a war between spiritual powers, both seen and unseen,…”

“So, you know, I just think it’s more likely that they are what they sound like, rather than helicopters with women behind the wheel! I know not all ‘literalists’ hold that view, but its a rather good example of how far one can go trying to smoosh something into your own system!”

Could not agree more on what you said as a good example “of how far one can go trying to smoosh something into your own system” with all due respect that is why I struggle with Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(Also pertaining to the thread on “why I believe in the rapture”)

Luke 21:26-28 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. [27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

what is your input on coming in the clouds?
 

VictoryinJesus

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you said “Many people try to fit the descriptions of those creatures onto ‘real world’ objects. However, I’d say in a book that is primarily describing a war between spiritual powers, both seen and unseen,…”

“So, you know, I just think it’s more likely that they are what they sound like, rather than helicopters with women behind the wheel! I know not all ‘literalists’ hold that view, but its a rather good example of how far one can go trying to smoosh something into your own system!”

Could not agree more on what you said as a good example “of how far one can go trying to smoosh something into your own system” with all due respect that is why I struggle with Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(Also pertaining to the thread on “why I believe in the rapture”)

Luke 21:26-28 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. [27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

what is your input on coming in the clouds?

@Naomi25 before I forget. Acts 1:7-13 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. [8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. [10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1) it is not for you to know the times and seasons which the Father has put in his own power. But you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you.

2) he was received out of their sight. When thinking of cloud, it makes me consider our prayers could not pass through because of the cloud (vital with the below) and where God said: This is my beloved Son, hear Him. Him shall I receive, Him shall I hear. John 16:14-28 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [16] A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? [18] They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. [19] Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? [20] Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. [21] A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. [22] And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. [23] And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. [24] Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. [25] These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. [26] At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. [28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Consider the “A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? [18] They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. [19] Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?”
With their going to wait to receive power and the cloud receive Him out of their sight? With why do you stand here looking up at the sky? For He Will come unto you the same way He was received into the cloud out of their sight “look up for your redemption draws near”

12] Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. [13] And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.


“And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

Hope that makes sense. Did He not truly mean what He told them standing their looking up at the sky (instead of looking up toward the Father) when the cloud received Him out of their sight? A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
…and your sorrow shall be turned to rejoicing; joy no man can take from you.
 

Oseas

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Luke 21:v.26-28 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud(CLOUD? Read Exodus 19:v.9-22 among others) with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, THEN(yeah, THEN) then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Yeah, men will faint with fear in the days to come, their hearts will fail in terror, because of the things that will come upon the world. JESUS listed the things that will come in the current time upon the world in Matthew 24:v.3 to 8, but the worst will come as is written in verses 15 to 25, that is from the midst until the END of the last week, or after 1.290 days. GOD WILL SEND STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie:and that they all might be DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Why will the powers of heaven be shaken? Because the TWO COVENANTS-the Old and NEW Testaments- will be DISSOLVED with the END of the current DISPENSATION OF GRACE, and establishment of GOD's Kingdom- Revelation 11:v.15 to 18.

2 Peter 3:v.10-13 combined with Luke 20:v.35-36 among others.


10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED(Hebrews 8:v.13), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Matth.5:v.5 - Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Revelation 5:v.10 - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Why will the powers of heaven be shaken? Because the TWO COVENANTS-the Old and NEW Testaments- will be DISSOLVED
The New Testament will be dissolved?
1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
This cup is the New Testament in my blood” written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. [4] And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: [5] Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 2 Corinthians 3:3-5

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

2 Corinthians 3:5-11 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; [6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. [7] But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? [9] For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. [10] For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. [11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

remainth: is not dissolved. written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
The ministration of the Spirit. By reason of the glory that excelleth. Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


wherein dwelleth righteousness.

is not the New Testament “wherein dwells righteousness” ? 2 Corinthians 5:17-18 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; (dissolve) behold, all things are become new. [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; (not to dissolve but remains)Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. (Wherein dwells righteousness; a new heaven and new earth) Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Look for a new heaven and new earth; wherein dwells righteousness)

You said “Why will the powers of heaven be shaken? Because the TWO COVENANTS-the Old and NEW Testaments- will be DISSOLVED” then wherein is the Hope Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: [28] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: [29] Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
 
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Oseas

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Matt. 28:v.14 And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN shall the END come.

24 The END cometh when He delivered up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have PUT DOWN down all RULE and all AUTHORITY and POWER. 25 For He must reign, till He hath put ALL enemies under His feet.

The kingdoms of THIS WORLD(this Devil's world) are become the Kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. Rev. 11:v.15
18 And the NATIONS were(will be) ANGRY(ahahahah), and GOD's wrath is come,...and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth.

Be careful, or get ready


2 Peter 3:v.10-13 combined with Luke 20:v.35-36 among others.

10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be DISSOLVED, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be DISSOLVED(Hebrews 8:v.13), and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


Matth.5:v.5 - Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Revelation 5:v.10 - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
 

Oseas

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Matt. 28:v.14 And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN shall the END come.

Matt. 24:v.33 - ... Know that it is near, even at the door.

Luke 13:v.24 to 28

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, ...
 

Oseas

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2 Thessalonians 2:v.3-4
2 ... there come a falling away first, and the MAN of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (FULFILLING 100% LITERALLY)

Verse 4 - Will fulfill LITERALLY in very near future -

4 Who (will) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God (will) sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Be careful, or get ready; GOD will send STRONG DELUSION IN VERY NEAR FUTURE, the Wicked will be revealed.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness IN THEM THAT PERISH; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause
GOD SHALL SEND THEM SRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie:

12 That THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

Naomi25

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you said “Many people try to fit the descriptions of those creatures onto ‘real world’ objects. However, I’d say in a book that is primarily describing a war between spiritual powers, both seen and unseen,…”

“So, you know, I just think it’s more likely that they are what they sound like, rather than helicopters with women behind the wheel! I know not all ‘literalists’ hold that view, but its a rather good example of how far one can go trying to smoosh something into your own system!”

Could not agree more on what you said as a good example “of how far one can go trying to smoosh something into your own system” with all due respect that is why I struggle with Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(Also pertaining to the thread on “why I believe in the rapture”)

Luke 21:26-28 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. [27] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [28] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

what is your input on coming in the clouds?
Hello again!
Phew…weighty topic. I’ll do my best to explain how I see this.
The terms “coming on the clouds” is a reference to Daniel, specifically, and the coming of the ‘son of man’.
Daniel 7:13-14
[13] “I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man
,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
[14] And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.


We also know that within the OT, the ‘clouds’ motif was a direct correlation to a theophany. The most clear and obvious display and example of this is the exodus. God appeared before his people as a giant cloud, and when he ‘came down’ to Mt Sinai, he covered the top of the mount with cloud, thunder and lightning.

So, I believe when the NT talks about Jesus returning “on the clouds”, its not, strictly, speaking literally, although we can perhaps say, from Acts 1:9 (Jesus’ ascension to heaven when a cloud ‘took him out of sight’…and angels told his Disciples he will return in like manner) that his coming will also be ‘from’ the clouds. We don’t need to look outside the obvious here, if he is meeting us in the sky…well, there’s usually clouds there.
However, when we take in the clear associations from the OT with ‘coming on the clouds’, we can also, perhaps, another 2 meanings to it.
The first is: its a clear theophany event. Which perhaps seems obvious, but as there are those who deny the literal, physical return of Christ, declaring that his return will be a clear theophany is a good way to deny that.
The second is a little more complicated. Often in the OT, as I understand it, ‘coming with the clouds’ was also used as a theophanic judgment event. God was coming in judgment on his, or other, people. Thus, we can both suppose and see from the NT explanations of Christ’s return, that when he comes, he comes in judgment. Which is a stark contrast from his first advent.
It’s interesting to note that the NT tends to use “parousia” as the word ‘coming’ when speaking strictly to Christians about the hope we have at his coming (1 Thess 4:15-17). When it speaks of his ‘coming’ in judgment, as it does, for example, in Rev 1:7 and Luke 21:27, it uses the word “erchomai”.
Same return as spoken of in Acts 1:9, but for some it will not be in judgment, but rescue…others it will be a day of mourning.
That’s the simplest explanation I can give, and I hope it makes sense. If you’d like I can try and tease it out some more, find some bible passages that support it.
 
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Naomi25

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@Naomi25 before I forget. Acts 1:7-13 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. [8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. [10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1) it is not for you to know the times and seasons which the Father has put in his own power. But you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit has come upon you.

2) he was received out of their sight. When thinking of cloud, it makes me consider our prayers could not pass through because of the cloud (vital with the below) and where God said: This is my beloved Son, hear Him. Him shall I receive, Him shall I hear. John 16:14-28 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [16] A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? [18] They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. [19] Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? [20] Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. [21] A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. [22] And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. [23] And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. [24] Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. [25] These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. [26] At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: [27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. [28] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Mmm. Maybe I can see where you’re going with this, but…personally I just don’t know that the text strictly calls for us to make that connection. Not here.
John 16 focuses in on the necessity of Christ leaving after his work is done, and the sending of the Helper. And the work of the ‘Helper’ among believers. I think it also speaks of Christ’s upcoming sacrifice, and the effect it would have on the disciples.
But all in all, I’m not sure I see in either passage a direct correlation to the clouds blocking prayers, even symbolically. Yes we pray to the Father in Christ’s name, by the power of the Spirit, so there is a necessary intercession there, a mediator between ourselves and God. But…since our intercessor is also God, I’m not so sure we can push a theological point where the clouds become the metaphorical curtain in the temple.
Once again…please correct me if I’m reading you wrong. I’m sort of terrible at that, so don’t be afraid to correct me!

.

Consider the “A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? [18] They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. [19] Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?”
With their going to wait to receive power and the cloud receive Him out of their sight? With why do you stand here looking up at the sky? For He Will come unto you the same way He was received into the cloud out of their sight “look up for your redemption draws near”

12] Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. [13] And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.


“And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

Hope that makes sense. Did He not truly mean what He told them standing their looking up at the sky (instead of looking up toward the Father) when the cloud received Him out of their sight? A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
…and your sorrow shall be turned to rejoicing; joy no man can take from you.
Not quite seeing what exactly you are trying to say, or how you’re connecting these passages, sorry.
On my part, I think the passage in John, when he says “a little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me”, is a direct reference to the crucifixion. Consider:
John 16:19-20
[19] Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, ‘A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me’? [20] Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.


“In a little while you will not see me”…”you will weep and lament”. He is speaking of his death. He was taken from them rather brutally and their world collapsed. My guess is that not only where they sorrowful at the loss, they were probably asking themselves if they’d been wrong to believe he was the Messiah.
But then, only 3 days later, the disciples “sorrow turned to joy” when they “again a little while…saw him”.
I think we can, perhaps, take a passage like this and say something like, “we too, like the disciples will have our sorrow turn to joy when we see him”, but in a strict sense, I think the passage is fairly simply just applying to what happened directly after it.
But…again, that’s just my take.
 

farouk

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Mmm. Maybe I can see where you’re going with this, but…personally I just don’t know that the text strictly calls for us to make that connection. Not here.
John 16 focuses in on the necessity of Christ leaving after his work is done, and the sending of the Helper. And the work of the ‘Helper’ among believers. I think it also speaks of Christ’s upcoming sacrifice, and the effect it would have on the disciples.
But all in all, I’m not sure I see in either passage a direct correlation to the clouds blocking prayers, even symbolically. Yes we pray to the Father in Christ’s name, by the power of the Spirit, so there is a necessary intercession there, a mediator between ourselves and God. But…since our intercessor is also God, I’m not so sure we can push a theological point where the clouds become the metaphorical curtain in the temple.
Once again…please correct me if I’m reading you wrong. I’m sort of terrible at that, so don’t be afraid to correct me!


Not quite seeing what exactly you are trying to say, or how you’re connecting these passages, sorry.
On my part, I think the passage in John, when he says “a little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me”, is a direct reference to the crucifixion. Consider:
John 16:19-20
[19] Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, ‘A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me’? [20] Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.


“In a little while you will not see me”…”you will weep and lament”. He is speaking of his death. He was taken from them rather brutally and their world collapsed. My guess is that not only where they sorrowful at the loss, they were probably asking themselves if they’d been wrong to believe he was the Messiah.
But then, only 3 days later, the disciples “sorrow turned to joy” when they “again a little while…saw him”.
I think we can, perhaps, take a passage like this and say something like, “we too, like the disciples will have our sorrow turn to joy when we see him”, but in a strict sense, I think the passage is fairly simply just applying to what happened directly after it.
But…again, that’s just my take.
@Naomi25 The Upper Room ministry of the Lord Jesus in John's Gospel is indeed very searching.
 

VictoryinJesus

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But all in all, I’m not sure I see in either passage a direct correlation to the clouds blocking prayers, even symbolically.

I wasn’t necessarily suggesting clouds block prayers but consider: Lamentations 3:43-50 Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied. [44] Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through. [45] Thou hast made us as the offscouring (1 Corinthians 4:13-14)and refuse in the midst of the people. [46] All our enemies have opened their mouths against us. [47] Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction. [48] Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people. [49] Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission, [50] Till the Lord look down, and behold from heaven.


Not quite seeing what exactly you are trying to say, or how you’re connecting these passages, sorry.
On my part, I think the passage in John, when he says “a little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me”, is a direct reference to the crucifixion. Consider:
John 16:19-20
[19] Jesus knew that they wanted to ask him, so he said to them, “Is this what you are asking yourselves, what I meant by saying, ‘A little while and you will not see me, and again a little while and you will see me’? [20] Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.


“In a little while you will not see me”…”you will weep and lament”. He is speaking of his death. He was taken from them rather brutally and their world collapsed. My guess is that not only where they sorrowful at the loss, they were probably asking themselves if they’d been wrong to believe he was the Messiah.
But then, only 3 days later, the disciples “sorrow turned to joy” when they “again a little while…saw him”.
I think we can, perhaps, take a passage like this and say something like, “we too, like the disciples will have our sorrow turn to joy when we see him”, but in a strict sense, I think the passage is fairly simply just applying to what happened directly after it.
But…again, that’s just my take.

“Not quite seeing what exactly you are trying to say, or how you’re connecting these passages, sorry.”
John 16:12-19 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. [13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [16] A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? [18] They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. [19] Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
Another connection being prayer and also “and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man takes from you” Joy no man can take from you being a gift of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:22-24 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. [23] And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. [24] Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

Same discussion or correlation to receiving the Holy Spirit. And a cloud received him out of their sight, a little while you see me not? immediately after they waited the upper room…a little while and you shall see me again because I go to the Father. the topic right before the cloud received Him out of their sight being “you shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses (Hebrews 12:1)Acts 1:8-9 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
 
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farouk

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I wasn’t necessarily suggesting clouds block prayers but consider: Lamentations 3:43-50 Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied. [44] Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through. [45] Thou hast made us as the offscouring (1 Corinthians 4:13-14)and refuse in the midst of the people. [46] All our enemies have opened their mouths against us. [47] Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction. [48] Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people. [49] Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission, [50] Till the Lord look down, and behold from heaven.




“Not quite seeing what exactly you are trying to say, or how you’re connecting these passages, sorry.”
John 16:12-19 KJV
[12] I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. [13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [16] A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? [18] They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. [19] Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

Another connection being prayer and also “and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man takes from you” Joy no man can take from you being a gift of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:22-24 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. [23] And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. [24] Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

Same discussion or correlation to receiving the Holy Spirit. And a cloud received him out of their sight, a little while you see me not? immediately after they waited the upper room…the topic right before the cloud received Him out of their sight being “you shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses (Hebrews 12:1)Acts 1:8-9 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
@VictoryinJesus Maybe your thought relates also to Psalm 25.14: "The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant."
 
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Truth7t7

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2 Thessalonians 2:v.3-4
2 ... there come a falling away first, and the MAN of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (FULFILLING 100% LITERALLY)

Verse 4 - Will fulfill LITERALLY in very near future -

4 Who (will) opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God (will) sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Be careful, or get ready; GOD will send STRONG DELUSION IN VERY NEAR FUTURE, the Wicked will be revealed.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness IN THEM THAT PERISH; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause
GOD SHALL SEND THEM SRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie:

12 That THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(The Strong Delusion)

2 Thessalonians 2
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation 13:11-14KJV
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;
saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 
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Naomi25

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I wasn’t necessarily suggesting clouds block prayers but consider: Lamentations 3:43-50 Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied. [44] Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through. [45] Thou hast made us as the offscouring (1 Corinthians 4:13-14)and refuse in the midst of the people. [46] All our enemies have opened their mouths against us. [47] Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction. [48] Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people. [49] Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission, [50] Till the Lord look down, and behold from heaven.
Well, I suppose if you’re looking at the ‘cloud’ as a symbolic representation of God’s ‘other-ness’ this would hold. And what I mean by that is…God is often revealed ‘in cloud’ or with clouds. It’s as if the cloud hides the divinity from us, those who would perish in his presence. Thus, in that very real sense we are separated from God, and the clouds represent that separation.
Is…that more what you’re talking of?

.
“Not quite seeing what exactly you are trying to say, or how you’re connecting these passages, sorry.”
John 16:12-19 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. [13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [16] A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. [17] Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? [18] They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith. [19] Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

the receiving of the Holy Spirit.
Another connection being prayer and also “and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man takes from you” Joy no man can take from you being a gift of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:22-24 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you. [23] And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. [24] Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

Same discussion or correlation to receiving the Holy Spirit. And a cloud received him out of their sight, a little while you see me not? immediately after they waited the upper room…a little while and you shall see me again because I go to the Father. the topic right before the cloud received Him out of their sight being “you shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and you shall be witnesses (Hebrews 12:1)Acts 1:8-9 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
I’m sorry, but I just don’t seem to understand what you’re aiming at here. It seems to me that you’re trying to find a correlation between certain words used…but I’m not sure.
I…don’t want you to think I’m trying to dismiss you. I’m not. I have issues with finding context sometimes…my problem. If it doesn’t bother you, you might help by breaking down your thoughts a little for me…?
Don’t worry if its too much trouble.
 

Oseas

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What prevails is the Word of GOD. The Word is GOD.

The LORD is at door.

Luke 13:v.24-25
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the Master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, ...


Matthew 25:5 to 12
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet Him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
 
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