Daq and Purity on the resurrection of the dead

[Purity]

Simon Bar-Yonah, Yacobos-James, Mariam Magdalene, Shaul-Paulos, all true apostles, and all true disciples; we believe these things faithfully and eventually come to know them as having been verified.

Verified? meaning....

Therefore, in the place where we abide, the physical death of the body is not even recognized according to the commandment of Yeshua the Word

Scripture?

If one does not believe these things then neither will the same understand the writings of Paul or the other New Covenant writers, and death is not yet defeated in that one, but reigns over the man with an unhealthy form of fear.
:)

Believe what things?

How am I to reason upon the thoughts of your mind and find truth? Surely the Word of God is our common foundation?

Lets put forth a Bible truth to begin our discussion.

The teaching of a universal resurrection is unscriptural and without Bible support.

You mentioned in your remarks the faithful were verified I believe the Scriptural definition in found in Heb 11 as saying they receive a "good report" by faith, though they had not received what was promised i.e immortality and an everlasting Kingdom on earth.

The Scriptures teach that only those responsible to judgement will be raised from the dead.

Often it is beneficial to consider and agree on the elementary things of Bible truth before discussing those deep matters:

Dan. 12:2 - "Many (but not all) of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.

Isa.26:14 - "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed and made all their memory to perish."

Isa.43:17 - "Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise; they are extinct, they are quenched as tow."

Ps.49:19-20 - "He (the soul) shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. Man that is in honour and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish."

These spoken of above are said to not rise.

In the Greek "anastasis" is mean a rising up, a standing up (from the root anistemi, to stand up, to cause to rise)

The resurrection teaches you Daq of a standing up of the dead ones; those you say were verified.

No doubt we will make it to the apostle Paul's teaching on the resurrection in 1 Cor. 15 and this discourse along with the symbolic enactment of Daniel's resurrection recorded in Dan. 10 will form the basis of the our discussion if Yahweh wills.

Purity

 

[daq]

This is the conversation exactly as I remember it:

Daq,

The former and latter rain prophecy being applied today ???

I am intrigue to see now you can substantiate the Joel prophecy being fulfilled as it was with the former rains in Acts 2.

Certainly the Spirit would not give the type of visions being purported here...but many shall say "I have seen a vision" AND "spoken in my Name".

The only Fire they will see is the Consuming one when His Son returns to admonish those who not only disobeyed the Gospel but made it their own.

Purity

Doctrine cannot be formed by visions and dreams but rather it must be the other way around because we are clearly warned that all servants shall be tested before being put in charge of an holy house. But regarding your question the two following passages are not the same event:

Joel 2:31-32 KJV
31. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Joel 3:9-16 KJV
9. Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10. Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11. Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O Lord.
12. Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13. Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
15. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

The moon being "turned into blood" (as in Acts 2 and also Revelation 6:12) is not the same as the moon being "darkened" or "not giving her light" (as also in Matthew 24:29). The moon is "at the feet" of the woman in Revelation 12 as she gives birth and therefore "turns into blood". The moon being turned into blood therefore signifies birth, (with every "son" born into the kingdom commencing with Messiah Yeshua, the firstborn from the dead, whom we follow). However, in the great day of Hashem all of the heavens shall be darkened, or blackened, including the sun, the stars, and the moon, (see also Jeremiah 4:23-28, Ezekiel 32:1-7 with Pharaoh and all his "flesh").

Lets consider this section first shall we?

In a short succinct statement when do you foresee this "great and the terrible day of the Lord" take place, or do you believe it is past?

Purity

Note that the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE that great and terrible day of the Lord. As for the solar portion Amos 8:9-10, when combined with the accounts of the crucifixion, it is revealed that the sun was already darkened at midday, from the sixth hour until the ninth hour, (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Yeshua. Thus some of these events, (if not the lunar signs also) which Peter speaks of in Acts 2 had already physically occurred some 51 to 52 days before Shavout-Pentecost at the Passover death of Messiah. Peter is apparently telling them that what they had all witnessed during the crucifixion was the fulfillment of certain prophecies and that likewise the Holy Spirit, because of those things, had now been poured out upon those that were prophesying and speaking in the tongues of the other nations gathered at that time for Shavout. In my view everything necessary was fulfilled by Messiah at the Cross of Golgotha. What follows is all supernal as is the Kingdom of God, (which is within us). Yeshua paid for his interpretation of Torah, Prophets, Writings, and paid for his Testimony, (which is the Spirit of Prophecy) with his blood. Since he alone did not break the Law then he alone has the right to interpret all of it, (although he already was the Word the crucifixion made it "legal" because the enemy was finally judged for killing an innocent man). As for the timing of the great and terrible day it occurs to each in his or her appointed times, and no man knows the day or the hour, only the Father knows. Notice the Luke 19 parable of the "pounds" concerns exactly this topic; the "nobleman" goes away to receive a kingdom and to RETURN. What then happens? He calls his servants before him, (this is the "Bema Seat" of Messiah) to settle accounts with them and reward them accordingly. Do they all come to stand before the Master at the same time? No they do not, rather, it is PERSONAL and INDIVIDUAL just as is the entire Gospel of Yeshua:

Luke 19:11-20 KJV
11. And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18. And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19. And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

For some this great day is yet future but for others the Bema Seat has occurred. Although it is to each in his or her own appointed times it is to God all the same day, the Day of Messiah, for he is now outside of our time domain constraints of the fleshly paradigm which has been placed upon man because of sin. For the same reason the Scripture states that we as believers "have come to mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of messengers, to the general assembly and congregation of the firstborn which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Yeshua the new Mediator of the Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaks better things than that of Abel."

2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Do you know the terror of the Lord? You will if indeed you will be born of both the water and the Spirit.
Abraham rejoiced to see the day of Yeshua: and he saw it, and was glad . . . :)

Greetings Daq,

Am I to interpret your red text to imply the judgement of saints is both past and future?
The crucifixion of Yahweh' Yeshua and His atoning work in him was retrospective as well as prospective; that it reaches back as well as forward. Paul taught that the Lord's death embraced "the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant" as well as those that even then were future (Heb. 9:15).

Your inference the Bema Seat has already occurred (for some) is not a Scriptural one, as the Judgement must first take place with the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). But the collective elect are yet to be raised for judgement. The first work of Christ will be to resurrect the responsible dead and this will precede those responsible living as per 1 Thess. 4:14-17.

If I am correct with your interpretation you imply the judgement (Bema or mercy seat) has already taken place for some?

This cannot be.

1 Thess. 4:14-17. "shall not prevent them which are asleep"

"prevent" is the Greek word phthano - to come or do before, get first in doing or being anything, be before with. Hence the living at that time "will by no means precede those who fell asleep". Paul here is comforting the believers at Thessalonica with the knowledge that those believers who had died (total cessation of life) would be the first to know that the Lord was in the earth, through their resurrection to life. Of course, should one believe in spirits in Heaven and the ridiculous notions these entail, then this passage of the Scripture is made of none affect. For why would believers be concerned for the dead if they be immortal in Heaven?

Your use of Heb 12:24 to suggest the Bema is past and future needs further explaining.

Purity

To give an in depth answer would take this thread far off topic which was why I attempted to nudge it back with my final comments previously above, (concerning the terror of the Lord). Please let it suffice to say here that if one does not entirely comprehend and believe the clear emphatic statements of Yeshua, (which I take as commandments) then the same will likewise not entirely understand the writings of Paul; for Paul believes all of the Testimony of Yeshua and does not deviate one jot or tittle from the Testimony of the Master. Therefore it is not more testimony of Paul which is necessary in such cases but rather more Testimony of Yeshua:

Did they eventually see the Son of man ascend back up to where he was before? Luke 24:51

John 6:62-64 KJV
62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

1) The flesh profits nothing; the words of Messiah are SPIRIT and LIFE.
2) If one does not believe this he risks betrayal of the Master which is no different than Judas.

John 11:23-26 KJV
23. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1) We were DEAD (John 5:25 - Ephesians 2:1).
2) While we were DEAD we heard his voice and LIVED.
3) Now that we LIVE we must continue to walk INTO Yeshua.
4) Whosoever LIVES and believes INTO Yeshua shall NEVER DIE.

Simon Bar-Yonah, Yacobos-James, Mariam Magdalene, Shaul-Paulos, all true apostles, and all true disciples; we believe these things faithfully and eventually come to know them as having been verified. Therefore, in the place where we abide, the physical death of the body is not even recognized according to the commandment of Yeshua the Word. If one does not believe these things then neither will the same understand the writings of Paul or the other New Covenant writers, and death is not yet defeated in that one, but reigns over the man with an unhealthy form of fear. :)

You appear to have taken most of what I wrote out of its context, made multiple incorrect assumptions when you clearly had the Scripture right there in front of your eyes, and then employed your new assumptions for a platform to launch a thread concerning entirely different causes of your own. I truly have no clue what you mean when you state "The teaching of a universal resurrection is unscriptural and without Bible support." Such topics never came up in our short discourse and neither have I stated or implied that the "Resurrection has passed" if you are also trying to imply such a thing; in fact, if you actually read what I wrote, you might understand why the Parousia of Messiah is ALWAYS imminent in the New Covenant writings. This is because the entire Gospel of Yeshua is PERSONAL and INDIVIDUAL to each in his or her appointed times; just as the Master reveals in Luke 19:11-20 KJV quoted above. :)

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Every person will be resurrected both body and soul and be judged.

Revelation 21:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death(((grave Place of holding for sinner's body))) and hell(((place of holding for sinner's spirit))) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The sinners will be cast into the lake of fire both body and soul.

[SIZE=14pt]2 Corinthians 5:1-4[/SIZE]
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, [SIZE=14pt]that mortality might be swallowed up of life.[/SIZE]

A the resurrection our earthly bodies will be called up to meet Jesus in the air where our spiritual bodies will be put on over our earthly bodies as a cloak. The two bodies become one.

 

[daq]

[SIZE=14pt]2 Corinthians 5:1-4[/SIZE]
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, [SIZE=14pt]that mortality might be swallowed up of life.[/SIZE]

A the resurrection our earthly bodies will be called up to meet Jesus in the air where our spiritual bodies will be put on over our earthly bodies as a cloak. The two bodies become one.

Is Torah Spirit or not? If it is Spirit as Paul states, (quoted in the thread linked below) then does it not apply to you also as a disciple of Yeshua? Or do you think that you will just say "Yes! I believe!" and then proceed to meander around for a while until you enter a cocoon to come out later as a butterfly? If therefore the Law is Spirit, as the Scripture clearly states, then may I ask how it is that you are proceeding with the following supernal commandments and spiritual offerings of the heart in your walk with Messiah?

Exodus 25:1-9 KJV
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take My offering.
3. And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass,
4. And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,
5. And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood,
6. Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense,
7. Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.
8. And let them make me a miqdash-sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
9. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the mishkan-tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

"Let them make Me a miqdash-chapel-sanctuary; that I may dwell among them, according to all that I shew thee: after the pattern of the Mishkan-Tabernacle,"

Ezekiel 11:16 KJV
16. Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little miqdash-sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

Revelation 21:3 KJV
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And did I not see you posting in the following thread? ;) Surely you were there:

The Kingdom of Heaven is within you even if you are an inmate: :)

Luke 17:20-21 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Paul was likewise a prisoner and in chains for Messiah yet look what he states:

2 Corinthians 5:14-17 KJV
14. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15. And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Does that final statement not sound familiar? "Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new!" . . .

Revelation 21:3-5 KJV
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

What then is the Holy City? She is like the clothing which God has provided for the saints. She is what it means to be clothed from on high and for the sons of God to be cast about or "tented" with the Tabernacle of God. This is part of the meaning in the Jeremiah 31 New Covenant where he states: "The Lord hath created a new thing in the earth, a nqebah-female shall compass a geber-warrior-man" (Jeremiah 31:22). My mother is Jerusalem cast about in gold, and silver, and brass, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, and rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins. Her strength is like the myrtles and willows that stand beside the brook, her frame is of acacia wood, she has the pure oil olive for the light, spices with anointing oil, sweet incense, and all the holy tamiyd-continual things which are written. And my bride is of the daughters of Jerusalem; in the latter days every true geber-warrior-man of the Spirit will consider it.

Galatians 4:22-27 KJV
22. For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27. For it is written, (Isaiah 54:1) Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Isaiah 54:1-3 KJV
1. Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.
2. Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3. For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

Exodus 25:1-9
1. And spake YHWH unto Moses, saying;
2. Speak unto the sons of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take My offering.
3. And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass,
4. And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,
5. And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and acacia wood,
6. Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense,
7. Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.
8. And let them make me a miqdash-sanctuary; that I may dwell in the midst of them.
9. According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the Mishkan-Tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Therefore build you a "little miqdash-sanctuary-chapel" unto your heavenly Father in the name of his Son Yeshua and pattern it after the Mishkan-Tabernacle with all of the holy sanctified vessels thereof, (which are supernal in meaning) and do so according to the freewill offering of a pure heart as requested in the commandment from above; the Father will surely come and make his abode with you. And the old heavens and the old earth shall be dissolved in the consuming fire of his Presence in that great and terrible day; the mind of the flesh shall consume away as you stand upon your feet; the eyes of the flesh, which see all things according to the carnal ways of the flesh, shall consume away in their sockets; the tongue speaking the carnal things of the flesh, (which lights on fire the flames of hell though it is such a little member of the body) he also shall consume away in his mouth.

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. For thus says the Lord God; "Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little miqdash-sanctuary-chapel in the countries where they shall come" (Ezekiel 11:16).

 

[Purity]

Verified? meaning....



Scripture?



Believe what things?

How am I to reason upon the thoughts of your mind and find truth? Surely the Word of God is our common foundation?

Lets put forth a Bible truth to begin our discussion.

The teaching of a universal resurrection is unscriptural and without Bible support.

You mentioned in your remarks the faithful were verified I believe the Scriptural definition in found in Heb 11 as saying they receive a "good report" by faith, though they had not received what was promised i.e immortality and an everlasting Kingdom on earth.

The Scriptures teach that only those responsible to judgement will be raised from the dead.

Often it is beneficial to consider and agree on the elementary things of Bible truth before discussing those deep matters:

Dan. 12:2 - "Many (but not all) of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.

Isa.26:14 - "They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed and made all their memory to perish."

Isa.43:17 - "Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise; they are extinct, they are quenched as tow."

Ps.49:19-20 - "He (the soul) shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light. Man that is in honour and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish."

These spoken of above are said to not rise.

In the Greek "anastasis" is mean a rising up, a standing up (from the root anistemi, to stand up, to cause to rise)

The resurrection teaches you Daq of a standing up of the dead ones; those you say were verified.

No doubt we will make it to the apostle Paul's teaching on the resurrection in 1 Cor. 15 and this discourse along with the symbolic enactment of Daniel's resurrection recorded in Dan. 10 will form the basis of the our discussion if Yahweh wills.

Purity

Daq,

This thread was an invitation for you to define your views on the hope of those who sleep in the Lord.

You made certain inferences in your other posts which required some explanation and seeing you state the thread was going off topic I decided to create a new one here.

I will wait for you to respond accordingly.

Purity.

 

[daq]

Daq,

This thread was an invitation for you to define your views on the hope of those who sleep in the Lord.

You made certain inferences in your other posts which required some explanation and seeing you state the thread was going off topic I decided to create a new one here.

I will wait for you to respond accordingly.

Purity.

I do not believe in any of the modern versions of "soul sleep" as they call it. Surely you have read that Lazaros-Eleazar slept? Yet it was only for about three days and the half, (therefore he slept for "the days" Re: Daniel 8:27). Soul sleep for the Body of Moses was brought to an end when the Body of Moses was folded into the Body of Messiah. This occurred when Yeshua paid the full redemption-purchase price by his own innocent blood and is testified in Matthew 27:50-53. However, every man is a house, and every man is a parcel of land, and in this house we all have "members" whether for the good or for the evil, (and we are put in charge as "the porter" of the doors of the house while the Master is "away in a far journey" Matthew 24:45-51, Mark 13:34-37). Therefore mortify the deeds of the body and your members which are upon your land; put to sleep those "unruly members" of your household, for this is the will of God, even your sanctification. And we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. And when the Master returns he will bring with him those of your house whom you have been forced to put to sleep; your right eye which you were forced to pluck out because it kept offending you like a desert nomad wanderer always looking towards foods sacrificed to idols, or your right hand which you were forced to cut off because it kept offending you by doing the things that you would not otherwise do. Otherwise why should we baptize for the dead members of our households if the dead be not raised? When the Lord comes, (like with Job in his day) he will restore all and more so to the good and faithful servant. :)

Reference Material:

Mark 13:31-34 KJV
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Matthew 24:48-51 KJV
48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:8-11 KJV
8. Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10. Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11. For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. [literal "children" are not lost]

1 Thessalonians 4:2-7 KJV
2. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4. That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5. Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6. That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. [for in heaven their messengers do always behold the face of our Father which is in heaven]
7. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 KJV
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:26-29 KJV
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29. Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Romans 8:10-13 KJV
10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Colossians 3:1-7 KJV
1. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
5. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6. For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7. In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If indeed the flesh profits nothing then all of these things must occur BEFORE one sheds the physical body.
Likewise if these things occur only after physical death then living the New Covenant promise becomes a lie.
However, I know these things come to pass before physical death, (which is not recognized) and are therefore True. :)

 

[Purity]

I do not believe in any of the modern versions of "soul sleep" as they call it

. Surely you have read that Lazaros-Eleazar slept? Yet it was only for about three days and the half, (therefore he slept for "the days" Re: Daniel 8:27).

Do you believe the soul that sins shall die?

If the soul can eat and die why not sleep?

Ezek 18:20NET

Your reference to Daniel is out of context. Though Daniel had to live with unanswered questions your excuse in relation to the state of the dead is not likened to Daniel 8:27NET.

Lazarus was dead! - he did not possess some divine essence which wafted back to Yahweh, in fact he began to stink. John 11:39NET

Have you not read John 11?

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (Joh 11:11-14)

It is likely your understanding has been "tainted" by platonic notions of spirits and demons, but lets persist to see whether you will speak to Scriptural context.

Soul sleep for the Body of Moses was brought to an end when the Body of Moses was folded into the Body of Messiah.

"Body of Moses folded in the Body of Messiah"

Scripture?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

topic follow comment

 

[daq]

Lazarus was dead! - he did not possess some divine essence which wafted back to Yahweh, in fact he began to stink. John 11:39NET

Have you not read John 11?

These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (Joh 11:11-14)

I did not say that Lazaros was not dead but rather suggested that surely you must have read that he slept. The only place you could have read this is John 11 so why should you ask me if I have read it when I pointed you to it? The fact that Eleazar slept is the first thing Yeshua says to the disciples but because of their unbelief he was forced to tell them what was meant plainly as you have now noted.

It is likely your understanding has been "tainted" by platonic notions of spirits and demons, but lets persist to see whether you will speak to Scriptural context.



"Body of Moses folded in the Body of Messiah"

Scripture?

This disputing over the Body of Moshe occurs all throughout the wilderness journey, into the promise land, and through out the O/T-Tanak until the advent of Messiah. The mind of the flesh says "the soma is my body of the flesh which I love; therefore the soma-body of Moshe is his body of the flesh which had to be kept for resurrection purposes" (apparently this mindset does not believe a resurrection is possible without a "preserved" carcass). The the mind of him walking in the Spirit says "perhaps that soma of Moshe is somehow related to the soma-body of Messiah of which we are all members".

Jude 1:8-10 KJV
8. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Zechariah 3:1-5 KJV
1. And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3. Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5. And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.

Joshua 5:13-15 KJV
13. And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14. And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host [Sar-tsaba' YHWH, Re: Dan. 8:11, Dan. 8:25] of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15. And the captain of the Lord's host [Sar- tsaba' YHWH] said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Old Covenant Saints ~ Body of Moshe - First High Priest under the Law, (Joshua was the next).
New Covenant Saints ~ Body of Moshiya` Yeshua - High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

 

[Purity]

I did not say that Lazaros was not dead but rather suggested that surely you must have read that he slept. The only place you could have read this is John 11 so why should you ask me if I have read it when I pointed you to it?

Maybe you could clarify what is meant by "I do not believe in any of the modern versions of "soul sleep" as they call it".

Soul, to mean "living breathing creature" can sleep, both in the natural as you would have done last night ;) and when ones life is finished and by faith they are hid in the Master, their death is said to be a sleep as per the Scripture.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (1Th 4:14)

The fact that Eleazar slept is the first thing Yeshua says to the disciples but because of their unbelief he was forced to tell them what was meant plainly as you have now noted.

Correct.

The modern Christian would believe Lazarus possessed an immortal soul likened to some divine particle of God embodied in him from birth (or conversion). The Bible truth revealed Lazarus to be wholly dead having no consciousness at all anywhere.

He cease to exist those days.

This disputing over the Body of Moshe occurs all throughout the wilderness journey, into the promise land, and through out the O/T-Tanak until the advent of Messiah. The mind of the flesh says "the soma is my body of the flesh which I love; therefore the soma-body of Moshe is his body of the flesh which had to be kept for resurrection purposes" (apparently this mindset does not believe a resurrection is possible without a "preserved" carcass). The mind of him walking in the Spirit says "perhaps that soma of Moshe is somehow related to the soma-body of Messiah of which we are all members".

Jude 1:8-10 KJV
8. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
10. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Corresponding Scripture for greater context:

“Presumptuous are they, not afraid to speak evil of dignities (glories); whereas angels which are greater (than they?) in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord” (2 Peter 2:10,11).

Modernist Christians have a field day with these Scriptures and conjure up all kinds of notions to their own hurt.

Lets begin then with a question.

You would agree it is generally taught that the devil (supernatural fiery being) is concerned with souls (immortal) or humans, but this devil is concerned with the body of Moses. Why should the devil want custody of a corpse?

As we move through this sections a glaring truth will appear one I doubt you have comprehended.

Purity

 

[Angelina]

Hi daq,
I also do not believe in the JW doctrine of soul sleep...I believe that all is alive and waiting [whether in paradise or hades] after the first born of the living rose from the dead :) JMHO

Shalom Achi!

 

[daq]

Maybe you could clarify what is meant by "I do not believe in any of the modern versions of "soul sleep" as they call it".

Soul, to mean "living breathing creature" can sleep, both in the natural as you would have done last night ;) and when ones life is finished and by faith they are hid in the Master, their death is said to be a sleep as per the Scripture.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (1Th 4:14)

The full context of 1Thesselonians 4 concerning our "members" and sanctification was addressed, (you gave no reply). :)

The modern Christian would believe Lazarus possessed an immortal soul likened to some divine particle of God embodied in him from birth (or conversion). The Bible truth revealed Lazarus to be wholly dead having no consciousness at all anywhere.

He cease to exist those days.

Have you never read concerning the wealthy anthropon-man-faced and Lazaros-Eleazar? (Luke 16:19-17:4).
Yeshua disagrees with your position whether it is a "parable" or not, (it is not stated to be a parable).

Luke 16:19-17:4 KJV
19. There was a certain rich man, [anthropon-man-faced] which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
1. Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2. It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. [i.e. Lazaros-Eleazar]
3. Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
5. And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6. And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Therefore beware of the anthropon-man-faced; for they will deliver you up to the sanhedrins, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; and you will be brought before governors and kings for the sake of Messiah, for a testimony against them and the heathen, (Matthew 10:17-18). Likewise beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and the leaven of the Sadducees, and the leaven of Herod, all of these are anthropon-man-faced fierce countenances that can take up "residence" with the man, (`Az paniym Re: Deuteronomy 28:50, Daniel 8:23).

Lets begin then with a question.

You would agree it is generally taught that the devil (supernatural fiery being) is concerned with souls (immortal) or humans, but this devil is concerned with the body of Moses. Why should the devil want custody of a corpse?

As we move through this sections a glaring truth will appear one I doubt you have comprehended.

Purity

It appears from the Scripture that haSatan concerns the flesh and the mind of the flesh:

Every man entering into Yeshua Faith has four faces, (for the countenance of the Lion of Yehuda is the face of a young lion) and the man is like a great city which shall be divided into three parts. Two parts of the man-faced shall be cut off and die:

Matthew 26:30-31 KJV
30. And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
31. Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Zechariah 13:7-9 KJV
7. Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Every man is like a parcel of land and two parts therein shall be cut off and die; and the Most High will bring the third part of the man through the fire, refining him as silver is refined, and trying him as pure gold is tried in the fire; and the third part of the man shall be of the people of YHWH Elohim. Now therefore, (O ye cherubim) which of the "three rocks" is the genuine Simon? :)

Simonos Simonos Petros - Simon Simon Peter-Rock (Mattityahu 16:23, Lukas 22:31)
Simonos bar-Iona - Simon son of Yonah-Jonah - Simon Petros-Rock (Mattityahu 16:18)
Simonos huios Ioannou - Simon son of Yochanan-John - Simon Kephas-Rock (Yochanan 1:42, Galatians 2:9)

Revelation 3:12-13 KJV
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Ezekiel 41:18-21 KJV
18. And it was made with Cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree was between a cherub and a cherub; and every cherub had two faces;
19. So that the face of a man was toward the palm tree on the one side, and the face of a young lion toward the palm tree on the other side: it was made through all the house round about.

Matthew 16:21-23 KJV
21. From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men [anthropon-man-faced].

Original Strong's Ref. #444
Romanized anthropos
Pronounced anth'-ro-pos
from GSN0435 and ops (the countenance; from GSN3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:
KJV--certain, man.

Which of the countenances of Petros was it that Yeshua called haSatan? It was the one which savored the things which be of man rather than God. And what was Peter just telling the Master? "Oh don't worry, we will fight and not let you be killed!" Sounds no different from the Iskariotes-Sicarii rebels of that era who were seeking to throw off Roma and hoping Messiah would help them to establish a physical "kingdom of God" over the known physical world of that time. :)

Hi daq,
I also do not believe in the JW doctrine of soul sleep...I believe that all is alive and waitnig [whether in paradise or hades] after the first born of the living rose from the dead :) JMHO

Shalom Achi!

Amen, it is fairly clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, (and to live is Messiah, to die is gain). :)

 

[Purity]

Once again, maybe you could clarify what you mean by saying "I do not believe in any of the modern versions of "soul sleep" as they call it".

The full context of 1Thesselonians 4 concerning our "members" and sanctification was addressed, (you gave no reply). :)Have you never read concerning the wealthy anthropon-man-faced and Lazaros-Eleazar? (Luke 16:19-17:4).
Yeshua disagrees with your position whether it is a "parable" or not, (it is not stated to be a parable).

Yeshua was speaking to the Pharisees belief in spirits and placing it back upon their own heads concerning their up and coming judgement.

Luke 16:19-17:4 KJV
19. There was a certain rich man, [anthropon-man-faced] which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21. And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23. And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28. For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
1. Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2. It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. [i.e. Lazaros-Eleazar]
3. Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
5. And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6. And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Therefore beware of the anthropon-man-faced; for they will deliver you up to the sanhedrins, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; and you will be brought before governors and kings for the sake of Messiah, for a testimony against them and the heathen, (Matthew 10:17-18). Likewise beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and the leaven of the Sadducees, and the leaven of Herod, all of these are anthropon-man-faced fierce countenances that can take up "residence" with the man, (`Az paniym Re: Deuteronomy 28:50, Daniel 8:23).

I am pleased you can see the parable was squarely positioned with the Pharisees and Sadducees and the lesson was for them alone.

Without question this is one of the most masterful parables of your Yeshua on record; for who can take these false beliefs in spirits, evil and goodly abodes, and bring to light their abhorant behaviour in the eyes of Yahweh Himself?

Masterful wouldn't you say?

As a side, the record does not mention neither heaven nor souls.

Christians who like to cite this passage as being a literal description of actual events (and not as a parable as you indicated) it is needful to show you that even the immortal soulist cannot take this passage as a literal description.

The following is the evidence: (I suggest you read the section above quoted Luke 16:19-17:4 KJV

- The passage speaks about bodies not souls. for instance; eyes, bosom (Luke 16:23) tip of finger and tongue (Luke 16:24).
- Souls are said to be immaterial (the physical body being left in the grave), how then could Lazarus (if really a soul) be carried by angels? (Luke 16:22).
- The passage states that there was a great gulf fixed between Abraham and the rich man, yet they could both see and converse with each other (Luke 16:26).

Is the great gulf to be taken literally - do you daq truly believe this is a literal gulf whereby souls can see each other?

- Is heaven literally a place where conversations can be carried on between those enjoying bliss and those agonizing in hell?
- How could Lazarus go literally to Abraham's bosom? Abraham (as now) was unquestionably dead and without his reward. (Heb. 11:8, 13, 39, 40).

A great deal for you to consider.

It appears from the Scripture that haSatan concerns the flesh and the mind of the flesh:


Matthew 16:21-23 KJV
21. From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men [anthropon-man-faced].

Original Strong's Ref. #444
Romanized anthropos
Pronounced anth'-ro-pos
from GSN0435 and ops (the countenance; from GSN3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:
KJV--certain, man.

Which of the countenances of Petros was it that Yeshua called haSatan? It was the one which savored the things which be of man rather than God. And what was Peter just telling the Master? "Oh don't worry, we will fight and not let you be killed!" Sounds no different from the Iskariotes-Sicarii rebels of that era who were seeking to throw off Roma and hoping Messiah would help them to establish a physical "kingdom of God" over the known physical world of that time. :)

Amen, it is fairly clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, (and to live is Messiah, to die is gain). :)


If you indeed understand Satan to mean an adversary and devil to mean a false accuser then you are of most believers in a favoured position.

"You would agree it is generally taught that the devil (supernatural fiery being) is concerned with souls (immortal) or humans, but this devil is concerned with the body of Moses. Why should the devil want custody of a corpse?"

I see this was not answered concerning Jude and Peters account on the body of Moses?

Purity

Hi daq,
I also do not believe in the JW doctrine of soul sleep...I believe that all is alive and waiting [whether in paradise or hades] after the first born of the living rose from the dead :) JMHO

Shalom Achi!

Hi Angelina

Likewise I do not believe in the JW doctrine of soul sleep.

This is why its difficult to pin down precisely what daq believes, but I am sure through persistence we shall get there eventually.

Maybe he should define what the soul is before one can establish if it sleeps or not.

Purity

 

[daq]

Likewise I do not believe in the JW doctrine of soul sleep.

This is why its difficult to pin down precisely what daq believes, but I am sure through persistence we shall get there eventually.

Maybe he should define what the soul is before one can establish if it sleeps or not.

Purity

I clearly told you what I believe but you apparently do not believe what I already told you that I believe: if there was such a thing as "soul sleep" it was brought to an end at the Cross when Yeshua paid the full price by his blood, in Matthew 27:50-53, and with the Resurrection of Yeshua as the passage clearly states. As far as the 'adam he is a living soul, (chay nephesh) taken from the dust of the 'adamah according to the Scripture:

Genesis 2:7 KJV
7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 Vertical Strong's Ref. #s
7.
|3335| And formed
|3068| YHWH
|0430| 'Elohiym
|0853| -
|0120| the man
|6083| {out of} dust
|4480| from
|0127| the ground, ['adamah]
|5301| and blew [naphach]
|0639| into his nostrils
|5397| {the} breath of [nshamah]
|2416| life [chay]
|1961| And became
|0120| the man
|5315| a soul [nephesh]
|2416| living [chay]

Genesis 2:7 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
7. Wayiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et- ha'adam `apar min-ha'damah wayipach b'apayw nishmat chayiym wayhiy ha'adam lnepesh chayah.

Ha'adam was formed of the dust of the 'adamah-soil and became a chayah-living nephesh-soul when the Creator naphach-blew nshamah-breath of chayiym-life into his nostrils. Do you also not believe me when I say that I believe this? I do believe this also to be true. :)

Perhaps if you understand this first then you might begin to understand dividing up your own soul into "members" of your household when they must needs be "put to sleep" (for we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed).

 

[Purity]

I clearly told you what I believe but you apparently do not believe what I already told you that I believe: if there was such a thing as "soul sleep" it was brought to an end at the Cross when Yeshua paid the full price by his blood, in Matthew 27:50-53, and with the Resurrection of Yeshua as the passage clearly states. As far as the 'adam he is a living soul, (chay nephesh) taken from the dust of the 'adamah according to the Scripture:

Genesis 2:7 KJV
7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:7 Vertical Strong's Ref. #s
7.
|3335| And formed
|3068| YHWH
|0430| 'Elohiym
|0853| -
|0120| the man
|6083| {out of} dust
|4480| from
|0127| the ground, ['adamah]
|5301| and blew [naphach]
|0639| into his nostrils
|5397| {the} breath of [nshamah]
|2416| life [chay]
|1961| And became
|0120| the man
|5315| a soul [nephesh]
|2416| living [chay]

Genesis 2:7 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
7. Wayiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et- ha'adam `apar min-ha'damah wayipach b'apayw nishmat chayiym wayhiy ha'adam lnepesh chayah.

Ha'adam was formed of the dust of the 'adamah-soil and became a chayah-living nephesh-soul when the Creator naphach-blew nshamah-breath of chayiym-life into his nostrils. Do you also not believe me when I say that I believe this? I do believe this also to be true. :)

So you believe man (in nature) is no different than the animals?

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no pre-eminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecc 3:19)

If animal and man share the one breath and the same fate befalls them both, do you believe the animal also has an immortal part of God dwelling in them? Or, as the Scripture teaches, their death and fate is the same.

We understand in relation to spiritual and moral matters that man has been given the ascendancy over the natural beasts of the field, and his dominion is given as per Gen 1:28. However, what if he fails to respond to the potential for divinity that God has provided for him in his mind? What if his mind had nothing of the one true God in him?

Does he already possess immortality in him; a divine particle of God residing in his body as many believe? And does this divine part of God waft of to Hell some imaginary place of eternal torture?

Or is it true that his fate is like the beasts that perish?

As already proven he remains in the ground never to rise.

In regards to nature as one dies so does the other and so all their affections, desires and behaviour reveals they have no pre-eminence over the beast.

Purity

 

[daq]

So you believe man (in nature) is no different than the animals?

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no pre-eminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecc 3:19)

If animal and man share the one breath and the same fate befalls them both, do you believe the animal also has an immortal part of God dwelling in them? Or, as the Scripture teaches, their death and fate is the same.

We understand in relation to spiritual and moral matters that man has been given the ascendancy over the natural beasts of the field, and his dominion is given as per Gen 1:28. However, what if he fails to respond to the potential for divinity that God has provided for him in his mind? What if his mind had nothing of the one true God in him?

Does he already possess immortality in him; a divine particle of God residing in his body as many believe? And does this divine part of God waft of to Hell some imaginary place of eternal torture?

Or is it true that his fate is like the beasts that perish?

As already proven he remains in the ground never to rise.

In regards to nature as one dies so does the other and so all their affections, desires and behaviour reveals they have no pre-eminence over the beast.

Purity

It seems more as if you are the one who believes man is no different than animals by your comments. You suggested to Angelina that I should define what "a soul" is and that is what I did according to my understanding of the Scripture. However, you did not suggest to Angelina that I should define "spirit", or "the mother of all living", or "the second adam", (deuteros anthropos) or "the wife of thy youth", or "the wife of thy covenant", and neither did you ask me directly to do so, and therefore I did not. It is beginning to appear as if you merely invented this thread to try and catch me in something no matter whatever the case may happen to be. Interest is waning. -_-

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 KJV
6. If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7. Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8. Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9. But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Supernal things; for the enemies of the man are those of his own household, Micah 7:5-6, Matthew 10:35-36.

 

[Purity]

It seems more as if you are the one who believes man is no different than animals by your comments. You suggested to Angelina that I should define what "a soul" is and that is what I did according to my understanding of the Scripture. However, you did not suggest to Angelina that I should define "spirit", or "the mother of all living", or "the second adam", (deuteros anthropos) or "the wife of thy youth", or "the wife of thy covenant", and neither did you ask me directly to do so, and therefore I did not. It is beginning to appear as if you merely invented this thread to try and catch me in something no matter whatever the case may happen to be. Interest is waning. -_-

Deuteronomy 13:6-11 KJV
6. If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7. Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8. Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9. But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
11. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.

Supernal things; for the enemies of the man are those of his own household, Micah 7:5-6, Matthew 10:35-36.

Yes, I agree, interest is wanning.

To find a believer who can coherently define the soul, spirit, the mother of all living and the second Adam is no easy task. To speak plainly concerning a matter is all that is being requested.

I read through some of your posts (before this thread) and felt your understanding of the Scripture and familiarly with its language, was impressive. Its a shame you have chosen a sceptical spirit along with a fearful outlook of something deceptive being implied. Its not the case.

Read your above post ask whether you clearly put forth your belief on the soul?

Celestial things - you took me to a passage that conveys the most personal and intimate relationships considered. (Deuteronomy 13:6-11 KJV)

Thank you...it could be a compliment but the context may suggest otherwise.

The "son of thy mother" implies a much closer relationship than the son of the same father, but of a different mother in a polygamous marriage. The "wife of thy bosom" likewise expresses the closest intimacy. It was the sin of Adam that he yielded to the persuasion of the wife he loved, and this can be a danger at any time. The "friend which is as thy own soul" is one so beloved, that an Israelite would hesitate to offend him, much less deliver him up to the penalty of death. Moses laid it down, and Christ endorsed it, that the nearest and dearest must not be permitted to deflect one from the true service of Yahweh. See how the teaching of Moses is endorsed by Micah ? (Micah 7:6) and its application in the new testament, as far as false brethren and prophets are concerned. Note the teaching of Christ (Matt. 10:37; Matt 12:49-50), and the warning of the Apostles (Gal. 2:4; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 John 2:26; Jude 4).

The death state;

Psa 89:48 What man liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave?

Psa 89:48NET
Psa 89:48KJV
Psa 89:48ESV
Psa 89:48NASB

Without faith - No!

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

To find a believer who can coherently define the soul, spirit, the mother of all living and the second Adam is no easy task.

My question is, can you do so? Why don't you put forth what you believe?

I read through some of your posts (before this thread) and felt your understanding of the Scripture and familiarly with its language, was impressive. Its a shame you have chosen a sceptical spirit along with a fearful outlook of something deceptive being implied. Its not the case.

Did you consider the possibility that maybe he doesn't really know what he delights in pretending to know? Soulish knowledge of scripture is not true knowledge by any means.

 

[Purity]

My question is, can you do so? Why don't you put forth what you believe?


Did you consider the possibility that maybe he doesn't really know what he delights in pretending to know? Soulish knowledge of scripture is not true knowledge by any means.

Greetings ChristRoseFromTheDead

Long name you have and a topical one at that!

Here is some of what I believe concerning the soul:

​

• Souls die: "Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Eze 18:4; Jdg 16:30; Isa 38:17; Mat 16:25; Mat 16:26; Luk 12:19; Luk 12:20)

• Souls can be hungry: "It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion" (Isa 29:8; see also Exo 12:16 [AV mg.]; Lev 17:10-12; Num 11:5; Num 11:6; Pro 6:30)

• Souls can be people or animals: "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life [a living soul, mg.], I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so" (Gen 1:30; see also Gen 9:10, Gen 9:12, Gen 9:15; Num 31:28; Jos 10:32; Jos 11:11; Jer 2:34)

• Souls breathe: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen 2:7; see also Job 12:7-10)

• Souls go to the grave: "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for He shall receive me" (Psa 49:15; see also Psa 16:10; Mat 10:28)

Doubtless you can see the Scripture is silent on the soul possessing anything immortal. Should these two words "immortal soul" find their unity in the Holy Writ by all means show me.

Purity

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Greetings ChristRoseFromTheDead
Long name you have and a topical one at that!

I wanted to subliminally proclaim the good news to everyone's minds at every post.

Doubtless you can see the Scripture is silent on the soul possessing anything immortal. Should these two words "immortal soul" find their unity in the Holy Writ by all means show me.

A most interesting idea that I have never even thought about. I haven't delved into what you've provided, but at face value and by logical extension it would seem that a soul is the awareness that results from the confluence of body and spirit. Thus, the spirit of the beast (both actual and figurative) descends into the earth, and the spirit of (the new) man ascends to GOD.

So does that mean the soul is recreated at resurrection, or something else that Paul called life-giving spirit, for the sons of GOD?