Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well trusting people deciding who wrote a book or not about 1900 years ago is kind of silly. Paul wrote all of his books and died no later than 67 A.D. Peter died a few years before Paul.
Dating the NT Books
- Thread starter Arthur81
- Start date
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Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
John's Gospel isn't synoptic.
John handpicked each sign to designate a spiritual meaning. Also, John wrote this fact that all the books in the world couldn't contain all the miracles that Jesus did. John 21:25 - Jesus also did many other things, if they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.
This explains why John only used 7 signs.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I can recommend a very very scholarly work entitles "Footsteps of the Messiah" by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum. It takes much work in Scripture to show the gap.
But quite simply all we need do is look at the prophecy and then history and see that the prophecies have not been fulfilled.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Many will allegorize the 70th week to force fit it into the time of Jesus with allegorical fulffillments. but they just do not fit.
Jesus never made a 7 year covenant with Israel.
Jesus never broke that non covenant in the midst of the week
Jesus did not cause the sacrifice and oblation ot physically cease.
Sins have not ceased so we cannot be at the end of the 70 weeks
The transgression of Israel (rejecting Jesus) has not finished
Everlasting righteousness is not brought in to Israel yet.
Jesus has not been anointed as of yet.
Its common sense, Revelation is not addressed to Jewish churches but gentile ones, no need to mention the temple because it does not pertain to their faith. The Link I posted are other internal (Scriptural) proofs for this date, and this does not include the early church fathers who directly say John Wrote this under the persecution of 90-96 ad (Domitian's reign). Some of whom were his disciples and contemporaries (These being the external proofs). Typically the ones who see an early date are pushing an agenda.... either amillennialism or Preterism, and ignoring common sense.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
It's not silent on the subject. Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple in the gospels. It IS more concerned with the re-establishment of a different temple, than the destruction of the old one.
Paul has several chapters about how the real temple is the people of God in 1Corinthians. That discussion isn't necessary if the Jewish temple is standing. There are allusions to the church as the temple in 2Corinthians, Ephesians, 2Thessalonians as well.
The book of Hebrews has a chapter about the dis-establishment of the Levitical priesthood, and their replacement by a better priesthood, better High Priest, etc.
1Peter 2 is likewise concerned with the establishment of a different temple and a different priesthood that is composed of believers, with Christ as the cornerstone.
Revelation has a different temple that comes down from heaven. And by the end of the book, there is no temple at all:
I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Rev 21:22
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Textual criticism isn't about trust. It's about observations and logic.
It asks questions, like... If Paul died in 65-69 AD, then is it plausible that he wrote 2Thessalonians that refers to events that happened decades later? (BTW, the answer to that isn't necessarily 'no,' because prophecy is a thing, and there's also an issue of margin notes being included.)
The traditional view is more based on trust. You've put your trust in Eusebius and Athanasius, and the members of the Nicene Council.
So you are going to take your interpretation of history and use that to contradict the explicit statement of the scripture, which gives no hint of a gap between the 69th and 70th week? That requires one to ignore the literal, explicit statement of the 70 weeks, and then contradict that by varied interpretations by men of God through history on the verses that follow? Uncertain interpretations I cannot use to contradict explicit statements.
In various biblical topics, such as the dating and interpretation of the book of Revelation, a person's perspective; where they are coming from is helpful to know. My perspective or foundational beliefs that guide me are as follow.
I find that it is the liberals, the deniers of the supernatural of the Bible, that tend to date the books of the Bible much later then traditionally believed, so I lean automatically to an earlier date.
I try to be very careful in distinguishing between the literal or 'normal' writing, and that which is figurative or symbolic. There are 4 statements of timing given in Revelation that I can see no way to ignore:
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand." (Rev 1:1-3 ASV)
this appears so important a fact, it is repeated in the last chapter of the book
"And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass...And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand. (Rev 22:10 ASV)" (Rev 22:6 ASV) *I find the book fits the destruction of the temple first, then the fall of the Roman Empire follows.
The statement of "Seal not up the words" call to my mind the opposite statement in Daniel:
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (Dan 12:4 ASV) *here in Daniel "seal the book" for it is in the distant future, where in Revelation "seal not" for the time is at hand.
It troubles me to think the words spoken to the disciples in the 1st century, did not apply to them but only applied to disciples 2000 years in the future. When I read "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished" I cannot see projecting generation to a generation 2000 years in the future, leaving no meaning to the apostles to whom he speaks, nor which answers their question about the destruction of the temple.
Admittedly, one's overall understanding of eschatology influences his interpretation of various passages of scripture. But if he begins to question his own understanding of scripture on eschatology, as I did years ago, things are reversed and he may reform his previous understanding. It is difficult: am I interpreting to support my preconceived belief; or am I striving to be objective and interpret to the best of my ability by standard rules of interpretation? Maybe the proverb from Hamlet is useful here: "To thine own self be true".
I find that it is the liberals, the deniers of the supernatural of the Bible, that tend to date the books of the Bible much later then traditionally believed, so I lean automatically to an earlier date.
I try to be very careful in distinguishing between the literal or 'normal' writing, and that which is figurative or symbolic. There are 4 statements of timing given in Revelation that I can see no way to ignore:
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand." (Rev 1:1-3 ASV)
this appears so important a fact, it is repeated in the last chapter of the book
"And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass...And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand. (Rev 22:10 ASV)" (Rev 22:6 ASV) *I find the book fits the destruction of the temple first, then the fall of the Roman Empire follows.
The statement of "Seal not up the words" call to my mind the opposite statement in Daniel:
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." (Dan 12:4 ASV) *here in Daniel "seal the book" for it is in the distant future, where in Revelation "seal not" for the time is at hand.
It troubles me to think the words spoken to the disciples in the 1st century, did not apply to them but only applied to disciples 2000 years in the future. When I read "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished" I cannot see projecting generation to a generation 2000 years in the future, leaving no meaning to the apostles to whom he speaks, nor which answers their question about the destruction of the temple.
Admittedly, one's overall understanding of eschatology influences his interpretation of various passages of scripture. But if he begins to question his own understanding of scripture on eschatology, as I did years ago, things are reversed and he may reform his previous understanding. It is difficult: am I interpreting to support my preconceived belief; or am I striving to be objective and interpret to the best of my ability by standard rules of interpretation? Maybe the proverb from Hamlet is useful here: "To thine own self be true".
John 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
I thought the pool at Bethesda was destroyed in 70AD.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
John was recounting Jesus's miracles during the earthly ministry of Jesus. The beggar in Chapter 5 was sick 38 yrs. and represented a sick Israel.
Deuteronomy 2:14. - Thirty-eight years passed from the time we first left Kadesh-barnea until we finally crossed the Zered Brook! By then, all the men old enough to fight in battle had died in the wilderness, as the Lord had vowed would happen.
Ok, but why does John 5:2 say “now there is” as in present tense instead of “there was” as in past tense?
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Probably because the author used source material that was old enough to have been written before that was destroyed.
Reddsta
Active Member
If anyone is interested here is a list of those who place an early than 70AD writing of Revelation. I got this list from another forum.
Firmin Abauzit, Essai sur 1Apocalypse (Geneva: 1730).
Jay E. Adams, The Time is at Hand (Philipsburg NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1966).
Luis de Alcasar, Vestigatio arcani Sensus in Apocalypsi (Antwerp: 1614).
B. Aube
Karl August Auberlen, Daniel and Revelation in Their Mutual Relation(Andover: 1857).
Greg L. Bahnsen, "The Book of Revelation: Its Setting" (unpublished paper, 1984).
Arthur Stapylton Barnes, Christianity at Rome in the Apostolic Age (Westport, CT: Greenwood, [1938] 1971), pp. 159ff.
James Vernon Bartlet, The Apostolic Age: Its Life, Doctrine, Worship, and Polity (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, [1899] 1963), Book 2, pp. 388ff. [1]
Ferdinand Christian Baur, Church History of the First Three Centuries, 3rd ed. (Tubingen: 1863).
Albert A. Bell, Jr., "The Date of Johns Apocalypse. The Evidence of Some Roman Historians Reconsidered," New Testament Studies 25 (1978):93-102.
Leonhard Bertholdt, Htitorisch-kritische Einleitung in die sammtlichen kanonishen u. apocryphischen Schriften des A. und N. Testaments, vol. 4 (1812 -1819).
Willibald Beyschlag, New Testament Theology, trans. Neil Buchanan, 2nd Eng. ed. (Edinburgh: T. &T. Clark, 1896).
Charles Bigg, The Origins of Christianity, ed. by T. B. Strong (Oxford: Clarendon, 1909), pp. 30,48.
Friedrich Bleek, Vorlesungen und die Apocalypse (Berlin: 1859); and An Introduction to th New Testament, 2nd cd., trans. William Urwick (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1870); and Lectures on the Apocalypse, ed. Hossbach (1862).
Alexander Brown (1878)
Heinrich Bohmer, Die Offenbarung Johannis (Breslau: 1866).
Wilhelm Bousset, Revelation of John (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck, 1896).
Brown, Ordo Saeclorum, p. 679. 50
Frederick F. Bruce, New Testament History (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1969), p.411.
Rudolf Bultmann (1976).
Christian Karl Josias Bunsen.
Cambridge Concise Bible Dictionay, editor, The Holy Bible (Cambridge: University Press, n.d.), p. 127.
W. Boyd Carpenter, The Revelation of St. John, in vol. 8 of Charles Ellicott, cd., Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, rep. n.d.).
S. Cheetham, A History of the Christian Church (London: Macmillan, 1894) , pp. 24ff.
David Chilton, Paradise Restored (Tyler, TX: Reconstruction Press, 1985); and The Days of Vengeance (Ft. Worth, TX: Dominion Press, 1987).
Adam Clarke, Clarkes Commentay on the Whole Bible, vol. 6 (Nashville: Abingdon, rep. n.d.).
William Newton Clarke, An Outline of Christian Theology (New York: Scribners, 1903).
Henry Cowles, The Revelation of St. John (New York: Appleton, 1871).
W. Gary Crampton, Biblical Hermeneutics (n. p.: by the author, 1986), p. 42.
Berry Stewart Crebs, The Seventh Angel (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1938).
Karl August Credner, Einleitung in da Neuen Testaments (1836).
R.W. Dale (1878)
Samuel Davidson, The Doctrine af the Last Things (1882); "The Book of Revelation" in John Kitto, Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature (New York: Ivison & Phinney, 1855); An Introduction to th Study of the New Testament ( 1851 ); Sacred Hermeneutics (Edinburgh: 1843).
Edmund De Pressense, The Early Years of Christianity, trans. Annie Harwood (New York: Philips and Hunt, 1879), p. 441.
P. S. Desprez, The Apocalypse Fulfilled, 2nd ed. (London: Longman, 1855).
W. M. L. De Wette, Kure Erklamng hr Offmbarung (Leipzig: 1848).
Friedrich Dusterdieck, Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Revelation of John, 3rd ed., trans. Henry E. Jacobs (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1886).
K. A. Eckhardt, Der Id da Johannes (Berlin: 1961 ).
Alfred Edersheim, The Temple: Its Ministry and Services (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, rep. 1972), pp. 141ff.
George Edmundson, The Church in Rome in the First Century (London: Longmans and Green, 1913).
Johann Gottfried Eichhorn, Commentaries in Apocalypse (Gottingen: 1791).
Erbes, Die Oflenbawzg 0s Johannis (1891).
G. H. A. Ewald, Commentaries in Apocalypse (Gottingen: 1828).
Frederic W. Farrar, The Early Days of Christianity (New York: Cassell, 1884).
Grenville O. Field, Opened Seals Open Gates (1895).
George P. Fisher, The Beginnings of Christianity, with a View to the State of the Roman World at the Birth of Christ (New York: Scribners, 1916), pp. 534ff.
J. A. Fitzmeyer, "Review of John A. T. Robinsons Redating the New Testament" (1977-78), p. 312. 52
J. Massyngberde Ford, Revelation. Anchor Bible (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1975).
Hermann Gebhardt, The Doctrine of the Apocalypse, trans. John Jefferson (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1878).
J.C.L. Giesler (1820)
James Glasgow, The Apocalypse Translated and Expounded (Edinburgh: 1872).
Robert McQueen Grant, A Historical Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Harper & Row, 1963), p. 237.
James Comper Gray, in Gray and Adams Bible Commentary, vol. V (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, [1903] rep. n.d.).
Samuel G. Green, A Handbook of Church History from the Apostolic Era to the Dawn of the Reformation (London: Religious Tract Society, 1904), p. 64.
Hugo Grotius, Annotations in Apocalypse (Paris: 1644).
Heinrich Ernst Ferdinand Guenke, Introduction to the New Testament(1843); and Manual of Church History, trans. W. G. T. Shedd (Boston: Halliday, 1874), p. 68.
Henry Melville Gwatkin, Early Church History to A.D. 313, vol. 1 (London: Macmillan), p. 81.
Henry Hammond, Paraphrase and Annotation upon the N. T (London: 1653).
Harbuig (1780).
Hardouin (1741)
Harenberg, Erkiarung ( 1759).
H. G. Hartwig, Apologie Der Apocalypse Wider Falschen Tadel Und Falscha(Frieberg: 1783).
Karl August von Hase, A History of the Christian Church, 7th cd., trans. Charles E. Blumenthal and Conway P. Wing (New York: Appleston, 1878), p. 33. 54
Hausrath.
Bernard W. Henderson, The Life and Prim-pate of the Emperor Nero (London: Methuen, 1903).
Hentenius. [secondary source]
Johann Gottfrieded von Herder, Das Buch von der Zukunft des Herrn, des Neuen Testaments Siegal (Rigs: 1779).
J. S. Herrenschneider, Tentamen Apocalypseos illustrandae (Strassburg: 1786).
Adolf Hilgenfeld, Einleitung in das Neun Testaments ( 1875).
David Hill, New Testament Prophecy (Atlanta: John Knox, 1979), pp. 218-219.
Hitzig.
Heinrich Julius Holtzmann, Die Offenbamng des Johannis, in Bunsens Bibekoerk (Freiburg: 1891).
F. J. A. Hort, The Apocalypse of St. John: 1-111, (London: Macmillan, 1908); and Judaistic Christianity (London: Macmillan, 1894).
John Leonhard Hug, Introduction to the New Tesament, trans. David Fosdick, Jr. (Andover: Gould and Newman, 1836).
William Hurte, A Catechetical Commentay on the New Testament (St. Louis: John Burns, 1889), pp. 502ff.55
A. Immer, Hermeneutics of the New Testament, trans. A. H. Newman (Andover: Draper, 1890).
Theodor Keim, Rom und das Christenthum.
Theodor Koppe, History of Jesus of Nazareth, 2nd cd., trans. Arthur Ransom (London: William and Norgate, 1883).
Max R. King, The Spirit of Prophecy (Warren, OH: by the author, 1971 )
Max Krenkel, Der Apostel Johannes (Leipzig: 1871).
Johann Heinrich Kurtz, Church History, 9th cd., trans. John McPherson (3 vols. in 1) (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1888), pp. 41ff.
Victor Lechler, The Apostalic and Post-Apostolic Times: Their Diversity and Union Ltfe and Doctrine, 3rd cd., vol. 2, trans. A. J. K. Davidson, (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1886), pp. 166ff.
Francis Nigel Lee, Revelation and Jerusalem (Brisbane, Australia, 1985)
John Lightfoot (1658)
Joseph B. Lightfoot, Biblical Essays (London: Macmillan, 1893).
Gottfried C. F. Lucke, Versuch einer vollstandigen Einleitung in die Offenbarung Johannis, 2nd ed. (Bonn: 1852).
Chnstoph Ernst Luthardt, Die Offenbarung Johannis (Leipzig: 1861).
James M. Macdonald, The Life and Writings of St. John (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1877).
Continued...........
Firmin Abauzit, Essai sur 1Apocalypse (Geneva: 1730).
Jay E. Adams, The Time is at Hand (Philipsburg NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1966).
Luis de Alcasar, Vestigatio arcani Sensus in Apocalypsi (Antwerp: 1614).
B. Aube
Karl August Auberlen, Daniel and Revelation in Their Mutual Relation(Andover: 1857).
Greg L. Bahnsen, "The Book of Revelation: Its Setting" (unpublished paper, 1984).
Arthur Stapylton Barnes, Christianity at Rome in the Apostolic Age (Westport, CT: Greenwood, [1938] 1971), pp. 159ff.
James Vernon Bartlet, The Apostolic Age: Its Life, Doctrine, Worship, and Polity (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, [1899] 1963), Book 2, pp. 388ff. [1]
Ferdinand Christian Baur, Church History of the First Three Centuries, 3rd ed. (Tubingen: 1863).
Albert A. Bell, Jr., "The Date of Johns Apocalypse. The Evidence of Some Roman Historians Reconsidered," New Testament Studies 25 (1978):93-102.
Leonhard Bertholdt, Htitorisch-kritische Einleitung in die sammtlichen kanonishen u. apocryphischen Schriften des A. und N. Testaments, vol. 4 (1812 -1819).
Willibald Beyschlag, New Testament Theology, trans. Neil Buchanan, 2nd Eng. ed. (Edinburgh: T. &T. Clark, 1896).
Charles Bigg, The Origins of Christianity, ed. by T. B. Strong (Oxford: Clarendon, 1909), pp. 30,48.
Friedrich Bleek, Vorlesungen und die Apocalypse (Berlin: 1859); and An Introduction to th New Testament, 2nd cd., trans. William Urwick (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1870); and Lectures on the Apocalypse, ed. Hossbach (1862).
Alexander Brown (1878)
Heinrich Bohmer, Die Offenbarung Johannis (Breslau: 1866).
Wilhelm Bousset, Revelation of John (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck, 1896).
Brown, Ordo Saeclorum, p. 679. 50
Frederick F. Bruce, New Testament History (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1969), p.411.
Rudolf Bultmann (1976).
Christian Karl Josias Bunsen.
Cambridge Concise Bible Dictionay, editor, The Holy Bible (Cambridge: University Press, n.d.), p. 127.
W. Boyd Carpenter, The Revelation of St. John, in vol. 8 of Charles Ellicott, cd., Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, rep. n.d.).
S. Cheetham, A History of the Christian Church (London: Macmillan, 1894) , pp. 24ff.
David Chilton, Paradise Restored (Tyler, TX: Reconstruction Press, 1985); and The Days of Vengeance (Ft. Worth, TX: Dominion Press, 1987).
Adam Clarke, Clarkes Commentay on the Whole Bible, vol. 6 (Nashville: Abingdon, rep. n.d.).
William Newton Clarke, An Outline of Christian Theology (New York: Scribners, 1903).
Henry Cowles, The Revelation of St. John (New York: Appleton, 1871).
W. Gary Crampton, Biblical Hermeneutics (n. p.: by the author, 1986), p. 42.
Berry Stewart Crebs, The Seventh Angel (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1938).
Karl August Credner, Einleitung in da Neuen Testaments (1836).
R.W. Dale (1878)
Samuel Davidson, The Doctrine af the Last Things (1882); "The Book of Revelation" in John Kitto, Cyclopedia of Biblical Literature (New York: Ivison & Phinney, 1855); An Introduction to th Study of the New Testament ( 1851 ); Sacred Hermeneutics (Edinburgh: 1843).
Edmund De Pressense, The Early Years of Christianity, trans. Annie Harwood (New York: Philips and Hunt, 1879), p. 441.
P. S. Desprez, The Apocalypse Fulfilled, 2nd ed. (London: Longman, 1855).
W. M. L. De Wette, Kure Erklamng hr Offmbarung (Leipzig: 1848).
Friedrich Dusterdieck, Critical and Exegetical Handbook to the Revelation of John, 3rd ed., trans. Henry E. Jacobs (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1886).
K. A. Eckhardt, Der Id da Johannes (Berlin: 1961 ).
Alfred Edersheim, The Temple: Its Ministry and Services (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, rep. 1972), pp. 141ff.
George Edmundson, The Church in Rome in the First Century (London: Longmans and Green, 1913).
Johann Gottfried Eichhorn, Commentaries in Apocalypse (Gottingen: 1791).
Erbes, Die Oflenbawzg 0s Johannis (1891).
G. H. A. Ewald, Commentaries in Apocalypse (Gottingen: 1828).
Frederic W. Farrar, The Early Days of Christianity (New York: Cassell, 1884).
Grenville O. Field, Opened Seals Open Gates (1895).
George P. Fisher, The Beginnings of Christianity, with a View to the State of the Roman World at the Birth of Christ (New York: Scribners, 1916), pp. 534ff.
J. A. Fitzmeyer, "Review of John A. T. Robinsons Redating the New Testament" (1977-78), p. 312. 52
J. Massyngberde Ford, Revelation. Anchor Bible (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1975).
Hermann Gebhardt, The Doctrine of the Apocalypse, trans. John Jefferson (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1878).
J.C.L. Giesler (1820)
James Glasgow, The Apocalypse Translated and Expounded (Edinburgh: 1872).
Robert McQueen Grant, A Historical Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Harper & Row, 1963), p. 237.
James Comper Gray, in Gray and Adams Bible Commentary, vol. V (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, [1903] rep. n.d.).
Samuel G. Green, A Handbook of Church History from the Apostolic Era to the Dawn of the Reformation (London: Religious Tract Society, 1904), p. 64.
Hugo Grotius, Annotations in Apocalypse (Paris: 1644).
Heinrich Ernst Ferdinand Guenke, Introduction to the New Testament(1843); and Manual of Church History, trans. W. G. T. Shedd (Boston: Halliday, 1874), p. 68.
Henry Melville Gwatkin, Early Church History to A.D. 313, vol. 1 (London: Macmillan), p. 81.
Henry Hammond, Paraphrase and Annotation upon the N. T (London: 1653).
Harbuig (1780).
Hardouin (1741)
Harenberg, Erkiarung ( 1759).
H. G. Hartwig, Apologie Der Apocalypse Wider Falschen Tadel Und Falscha(Frieberg: 1783).
Karl August von Hase, A History of the Christian Church, 7th cd., trans. Charles E. Blumenthal and Conway P. Wing (New York: Appleston, 1878), p. 33. 54
Hausrath.
Bernard W. Henderson, The Life and Prim-pate of the Emperor Nero (London: Methuen, 1903).
Hentenius. [secondary source]
Johann Gottfrieded von Herder, Das Buch von der Zukunft des Herrn, des Neuen Testaments Siegal (Rigs: 1779).
J. S. Herrenschneider, Tentamen Apocalypseos illustrandae (Strassburg: 1786).
Adolf Hilgenfeld, Einleitung in das Neun Testaments ( 1875).
David Hill, New Testament Prophecy (Atlanta: John Knox, 1979), pp. 218-219.
Hitzig.
Heinrich Julius Holtzmann, Die Offenbamng des Johannis, in Bunsens Bibekoerk (Freiburg: 1891).
F. J. A. Hort, The Apocalypse of St. John: 1-111, (London: Macmillan, 1908); and Judaistic Christianity (London: Macmillan, 1894).
John Leonhard Hug, Introduction to the New Tesament, trans. David Fosdick, Jr. (Andover: Gould and Newman, 1836).
William Hurte, A Catechetical Commentay on the New Testament (St. Louis: John Burns, 1889), pp. 502ff.55
A. Immer, Hermeneutics of the New Testament, trans. A. H. Newman (Andover: Draper, 1890).
Theodor Keim, Rom und das Christenthum.
Theodor Koppe, History of Jesus of Nazareth, 2nd cd., trans. Arthur Ransom (London: William and Norgate, 1883).
Max R. King, The Spirit of Prophecy (Warren, OH: by the author, 1971 )
Max Krenkel, Der Apostel Johannes (Leipzig: 1871).
Johann Heinrich Kurtz, Church History, 9th cd., trans. John McPherson (3 vols. in 1) (New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1888), pp. 41ff.
Victor Lechler, The Apostalic and Post-Apostolic Times: Their Diversity and Union Ltfe and Doctrine, 3rd cd., vol. 2, trans. A. J. K. Davidson, (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1886), pp. 166ff.
Francis Nigel Lee, Revelation and Jerusalem (Brisbane, Australia, 1985)
John Lightfoot (1658)
Joseph B. Lightfoot, Biblical Essays (London: Macmillan, 1893).
Gottfried C. F. Lucke, Versuch einer vollstandigen Einleitung in die Offenbarung Johannis, 2nd ed. (Bonn: 1852).
Chnstoph Ernst Luthardt, Die Offenbarung Johannis (Leipzig: 1861).
James M. Macdonald, The Life and Writings of St. John (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1877).
Continued...........
EARLY DATE ADVOCATES Continued......
Frederick Denisen Maurice, Lectures on the Apocalypse, 2nd ed. (London: Macmillan, 1885).
John David Michaelis, Introduction to the New Testament, vol. 4; and Sacred Books the New Testament.
Charles Pettit MIlvaine, The Evidences of Christianity (Philadelphia: Smith, English & Co., 1861).
A. D. Momigliano, Cambridge Ancient History ( 1934).
Theodor Mommsen, Roman History, vol. 5.
Charles Herbert Morgan, et. al., Studies in the Apostolic Church (New York: Eaton and Mains, 1902), pp. 210ff.
C. F. D. Moule, The Birth of theNew Testament, 3rd ed. (New York: Harper & Row, 1982), p. 174.56
John Augustus Wilhelm Neander, The Histoty of the Planting and Training of the Christian Church by the Apostles, trans. J. E. Ryland (Philadelphia: James M. Campbell, 1844), pp. 223ff.
Sir Isaac Newton, Observation Upon the Prophacies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (London: 1732).
Bishop Thomas Newton, Dissertation on the Prophecies (London: 1832).
A. Niermeyer, Over de echteid der Johanneisch Schriften (Haag: 1852).
Robert L. Pierce, The Rapture Cult (Signal Mtn., TN: Signal Point Press, 1986)
Alfred Plummer (1891).
Dean Plumptere (1877)
Edward Hayes Plumtree, A Popular Exposition of the Epistles to the Seven Churches of Asia, 2nd ed. (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1879).
T. Randell, "Revelation" in H. D. M. Spence &Joseph S. Exell, eds., The Pulpit Cornmentary, vol. 22 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, rep. 1950).
James J. L. Ratton, The Apocalypse of St. John (London: R. & T. Washbourne, 1912).
Ernest Renan, LAntechrist (Paris: 1871).
Eduard Wilhelm Eugen Reuss, History of the Sacred Scriptures of the New Testament (Edinburgh: T. &T. Clark, 1884).
Jean Reville, Reu. d. d. Mondes (Oct., 1863 and Dec., 1873).
J. W. Roberts, The Revelation to John (Austin, TX: Sweet, 1974).
Edward Robinson, Bibliotheca Sacra, vol. 3 (1843), pp. 532ff.
John A. T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament (Philadelphia: West-minster, 1976).
J. Stuart Russell, The Parousia (Grand Rapids: Baker, [1887] 1983).
W. Sanday (1908).
Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, 3rd cd., vol. 1: Apostolic Christianity (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, [1910] 1950), p. 834.
Johann Friedrich Schleusner.
J. H. Scholten, de Apostel Johannis in Klein Azie (Leiden: 1871).
Albert Schwegler, Da Nachapostol Zeitalter (1846).
J. J. Scott, The Apocalypse, or Revelation of S. John the Divine (London: John Murray, 1909).
Edward Condon Selwyn, The Christian Prophets and the Apocalypse(Cambridge: 1900); and The Authorship of the Apocalypse (1900).
Henry C. Sheldon, The Early Church, vol. 1 of History of the Christian Church(New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1894), pp. 112ff.
William Henry Simcox, The Revelation of St. John Divine. The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges (Cambridge: Cambridge University, 1893).
D. Moody Smith, "A Review of John A. T. Robinsons Redating the New Testament," Duke Divinip School Review 42 (1977): 193-205.
Arthur Penrhyn Stanley, Sermons and Essays on the Apostolic Age (3rd ed: Oxford and London: 1874), pp. 234ff.
Ed Stevens, What Happened in 70 A. D.? (Ashtabula, Ohio North East Ohio Bible Inst., 1981 );
J.A. Stephenson (1838)
Rudolf Ewald Stier (1869).
Augustus H. Strong, Systematic Theology (Old Tappan, NJ: Revell, [1907] 1970, p. 1010).
Moses Stuart, Commentary on the Apocalypse, 2 vols. (Andover: Allen, Mornll, and Wardwell, 1845).
Swegler.
Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, [n.d.] rep. 1974), p. 467.
Thiersch, Die Kirche im apostolischm Zeitalter.
Friedrich August Gottreu Tholuck, Commentary on the Gospel of John (1827).
Tillich, Introduction to the New Testament.
Charles Cutler Torrey, Documents of the Primitive Church, (ch. 5); and The Apocalypse of John (New Haven: Yale, 1958).
Cornelis Vanderwaal, Hal Lindsey and Biblical Prophcey (St. Catharines, Ontario: Paideia, 1978); and Search the Scriptures, vol. 10 (St. Cathannes, Ontario: Paideia, 1979).
Gustav Volkmar, Conmentur zur 0fienbarung (Zurich: 1862).
Foy E. Wallace, Jr., The Book of Revelation (Nashville: by the author, 1966) .
Israel P Warren (1878)
Arthur Weigall, Nero: Emperor of Rome (London: Thornton Butter-worth, 1930).
Bernhard Weiss, A Commentary on the New Testament, 2nd cd., trans. G. H. Schodde and E. Wilson (NY: Funk and Wagnalls, 1906), vol. 4.
Brooke Foss Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, [1882] 1954).
J. J. Wetstein, New Testament Graecum, vol. 2 (Amsterdam: 1752).
Karl Wieseler, Zur Auslegung und Kritik der Apok. Literatur (Gottingen: 1839).
Charles Wordsworth, The New Testament, vol. 2 (London: 1864).
Herbert B. Workman, Persecution in the Early Church (London: Ofiord, [1906] 1980).
Robert Young, Commentary on the Book of Revelation (1885); and Cotie Critical Comments on the Holy Bible (London: Pickering & Inglis, n.d.), p. 179.
C. F. J. Zullig, Die Ofienbamng Johannis erklarten (Stuttgart: 1852).
Frederick Denisen Maurice, Lectures on the Apocalypse, 2nd ed. (London: Macmillan, 1885).
John David Michaelis, Introduction to the New Testament, vol. 4; and Sacred Books the New Testament.
Charles Pettit MIlvaine, The Evidences of Christianity (Philadelphia: Smith, English & Co., 1861).
A. D. Momigliano, Cambridge Ancient History ( 1934).
Theodor Mommsen, Roman History, vol. 5.
Charles Herbert Morgan, et. al., Studies in the Apostolic Church (New York: Eaton and Mains, 1902), pp. 210ff.
C. F. D. Moule, The Birth of theNew Testament, 3rd ed. (New York: Harper & Row, 1982), p. 174.56
John Augustus Wilhelm Neander, The Histoty of the Planting and Training of the Christian Church by the Apostles, trans. J. E. Ryland (Philadelphia: James M. Campbell, 1844), pp. 223ff.
Sir Isaac Newton, Observation Upon the Prophacies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (London: 1732).
Bishop Thomas Newton, Dissertation on the Prophecies (London: 1832).
A. Niermeyer, Over de echteid der Johanneisch Schriften (Haag: 1852).
Robert L. Pierce, The Rapture Cult (Signal Mtn., TN: Signal Point Press, 1986)
Alfred Plummer (1891).
Dean Plumptere (1877)
Edward Hayes Plumtree, A Popular Exposition of the Epistles to the Seven Churches of Asia, 2nd ed. (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1879).
T. Randell, "Revelation" in H. D. M. Spence &Joseph S. Exell, eds., The Pulpit Cornmentary, vol. 22 (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, rep. 1950).
James J. L. Ratton, The Apocalypse of St. John (London: R. & T. Washbourne, 1912).
Ernest Renan, LAntechrist (Paris: 1871).
Eduard Wilhelm Eugen Reuss, History of the Sacred Scriptures of the New Testament (Edinburgh: T. &T. Clark, 1884).
Jean Reville, Reu. d. d. Mondes (Oct., 1863 and Dec., 1873).
J. W. Roberts, The Revelation to John (Austin, TX: Sweet, 1974).
Edward Robinson, Bibliotheca Sacra, vol. 3 (1843), pp. 532ff.
John A. T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament (Philadelphia: West-minster, 1976).
J. Stuart Russell, The Parousia (Grand Rapids: Baker, [1887] 1983).
W. Sanday (1908).
Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, 3rd cd., vol. 1: Apostolic Christianity (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, [1910] 1950), p. 834.
Johann Friedrich Schleusner.
J. H. Scholten, de Apostel Johannis in Klein Azie (Leiden: 1871).
Albert Schwegler, Da Nachapostol Zeitalter (1846).
J. J. Scott, The Apocalypse, or Revelation of S. John the Divine (London: John Murray, 1909).
Edward Condon Selwyn, The Christian Prophets and the Apocalypse(Cambridge: 1900); and The Authorship of the Apocalypse (1900).
Henry C. Sheldon, The Early Church, vol. 1 of History of the Christian Church(New York: Thomas Y. Crowell, 1894), pp. 112ff.
William Henry Simcox, The Revelation of St. John Divine. The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges (Cambridge: Cambridge University, 1893).
D. Moody Smith, "A Review of John A. T. Robinsons Redating the New Testament," Duke Divinip School Review 42 (1977): 193-205.
Arthur Penrhyn Stanley, Sermons and Essays on the Apostolic Age (3rd ed: Oxford and London: 1874), pp. 234ff.
Ed Stevens, What Happened in 70 A. D.? (Ashtabula, Ohio North East Ohio Bible Inst., 1981 );
J.A. Stephenson (1838)
Rudolf Ewald Stier (1869).
Augustus H. Strong, Systematic Theology (Old Tappan, NJ: Revell, [1907] 1970, p. 1010).
Moses Stuart, Commentary on the Apocalypse, 2 vols. (Andover: Allen, Mornll, and Wardwell, 1845).
Swegler.
Milton S. Terry, Biblical Hermeneutics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, [n.d.] rep. 1974), p. 467.
Thiersch, Die Kirche im apostolischm Zeitalter.
Friedrich August Gottreu Tholuck, Commentary on the Gospel of John (1827).
Tillich, Introduction to the New Testament.
Charles Cutler Torrey, Documents of the Primitive Church, (ch. 5); and The Apocalypse of John (New Haven: Yale, 1958).
Cornelis Vanderwaal, Hal Lindsey and Biblical Prophcey (St. Catharines, Ontario: Paideia, 1978); and Search the Scriptures, vol. 10 (St. Cathannes, Ontario: Paideia, 1979).
Gustav Volkmar, Conmentur zur 0fienbarung (Zurich: 1862).
Foy E. Wallace, Jr., The Book of Revelation (Nashville: by the author, 1966) .
Israel P Warren (1878)
Arthur Weigall, Nero: Emperor of Rome (London: Thornton Butter-worth, 1930).
Bernhard Weiss, A Commentary on the New Testament, 2nd cd., trans. G. H. Schodde and E. Wilson (NY: Funk and Wagnalls, 1906), vol. 4.
Brooke Foss Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, [1882] 1954).
J. J. Wetstein, New Testament Graecum, vol. 2 (Amsterdam: 1752).
Karl Wieseler, Zur Auslegung und Kritik der Apok. Literatur (Gottingen: 1839).
Charles Wordsworth, The New Testament, vol. 2 (London: 1864).
Herbert B. Workman, Persecution in the Early Church (London: Ofiord, [1906] 1980).
Robert Young, Commentary on the Book of Revelation (1885); and Cotie Critical Comments on the Holy Bible (London: Pickering & Inglis, n.d.), p. 179.
C. F. J. Zullig, Die Ofienbamng Johannis erklarten (Stuttgart: 1852).
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
The Apostle was, well an Apostle. John had a deeper thought than we have and a deeper understanding of spiritual meaning. Every allegory that John wrote was present tense, all the while pointing to a risen Christ as a past. John didn't write about the last supper or the temptation of Jesus. Those didn't matter, because Jesus had risen, but John wrote about the foot washing that the synoptic gospel don't have, because of a deeper meaning. At the end of John's gospel he summed it up, past tense.
John 20:31 - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Thanks for that explanation. I still think John wouldn’t use present tense on something like the pool at Bethesda if it was already destroyed. Currently I don’t think anyone would say something like “ now there is in New York twin towers” as that wouldn’t sit well with most people when trying to convey a message.
Reddsta
Active Member
Ok...so Arthur81...you are agreeing that John is in the heavens in proximity to the throne of God...and did you realize that the word for "temple" there in Revelation 11:1 is not the word "hieron" which is the word for a physical building with courts open to worshippers. Rather the word that is used is "naos" and is a reference to the actual dwelling or presence of the Spirit of God Himself?
Which explains why the apostle measures the "temple" with the standard of the "reed or rod" which is reference to the Lord Yahshua Christ Himself...we are seeing that the "Head" is used to measure the "Body"...as a spiritual temple...and in this passage...the Body is found in direct proportion to its Head.
This measured spiritual temple of God will carry the full Glory of the living God in Christ while on the earth...indeed because Revelation 11:3 is what comes out of the measured temple of 11:1.
This is the same word..."naos"...Ii would suggest that the reference to the "ark of the covenant" is the throne of God that John saw in the midst of the temple.
Redd
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Here's a thought.
The gospels were actually written decades after the events.
They were probably recording what had been an oral testimony for that whole time.
Which means they would record it according to the way the oral testimony was told. ???
They weren't writing their eye witness accounts in real time. Not like a news reporter today.
/
I can’t argue with that thought, most people wouldn’t dare to start changing or modifying scripture to fit our current perspective.
Saying John was written after 70AD but was “created” prior to 70AD might be true, I don’t know.
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