Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Might wanna leave this one off the list... a large part of the church regards him as a heretic.
Dating the NT Books
- Thread starter Arthur81
- Start date
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Thanks for pointing that out. To be honest I’m not all that familiar with church history or the positions the early church fathers took. I copied this list from a post in another forum and that post didn’t get any rebuttal about those who are on this list.
Thank you, quite a list! It is good that so many in your list can be read online by the links.
Traditional Interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27
John Wesley presents the most succinct explanation of Daniel 9:24-27 which is considered the traditional understanding. It is the interpretation I find most compelling and it generally is in agreement with Matthew Poole. Wesley wrote:
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks - These weeks are weeks of days, and these days are so many years. To finish the transgression - The angel discovers first the disease in three several words, which contain all sorts of sin, which the Messiah should free us from by his full redemption. He shews the cure of this disease in three words. To finish transgression. To make an end of sin. To make reconciliation: all which words are very expressive in the original, and signify to pardon, to blot out, to destroy. To bring in everlasting righteousness - To bring in justification by the free grace of God in Christ, and sanctification by his spirit: called everlasting, because Christ is eternal, and so are the acceptance and holiness purchased for us. Christ brings this in, By his merit. By his gospel declaring it. By faith applying, and sealing it by the Holy Ghost. To seal up - To abrogate the former dispensation of the law, and to ratify the gospel covenant. To anoint - This alludes to his name Messiah and Christ, both which signify anointed. Christ was anointed at his first conception, and personal union, Luk 1:35. In his baptism, Mat 3:17, to his three offices by the holy Ghost, King, Mat 2:2. Prophet, Isa 61:1. Priest, Psa 110:4.
Daniel 9:25
From the going forth - From the publication of the edict, whether of Cyrus or Darius, to restore and to build it.
Daniel 9:26
And after - After the seven and the sixty two that followed them. Not for himself - But for our sakes, and for our salvation. And the people - The Romans under the conduct of Titus. Determined - God hath decreed to destroy that place and people, by the miseries and desolations of war.
Daniel 9:27
He shall confirm - Christ confirmed the new covenant, By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. By his preaching. By signs and wonders. By his holy life. By his resurrection and ascension. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease - All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined - That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.
www.studylight.org
*The online presentation of Wesley's comments are in an outline form, may be easier to follow.
To compare the Puritan/Presbyterian Matthew Poole commentary on this section, it is online:
www.studylight.org
Poole's commentary is much longer and detailed.
John Wesley presents the most succinct explanation of Daniel 9:24-27 which is considered the traditional understanding. It is the interpretation I find most compelling and it generally is in agreement with Matthew Poole. Wesley wrote:
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks - These weeks are weeks of days, and these days are so many years. To finish the transgression - The angel discovers first the disease in three several words, which contain all sorts of sin, which the Messiah should free us from by his full redemption. He shews the cure of this disease in three words. To finish transgression. To make an end of sin. To make reconciliation: all which words are very expressive in the original, and signify to pardon, to blot out, to destroy. To bring in everlasting righteousness - To bring in justification by the free grace of God in Christ, and sanctification by his spirit: called everlasting, because Christ is eternal, and so are the acceptance and holiness purchased for us. Christ brings this in, By his merit. By his gospel declaring it. By faith applying, and sealing it by the Holy Ghost. To seal up - To abrogate the former dispensation of the law, and to ratify the gospel covenant. To anoint - This alludes to his name Messiah and Christ, both which signify anointed. Christ was anointed at his first conception, and personal union, Luk 1:35. In his baptism, Mat 3:17, to his three offices by the holy Ghost, King, Mat 2:2. Prophet, Isa 61:1. Priest, Psa 110:4.
Daniel 9:25
From the going forth - From the publication of the edict, whether of Cyrus or Darius, to restore and to build it.
Daniel 9:26
And after - After the seven and the sixty two that followed them. Not for himself - But for our sakes, and for our salvation. And the people - The Romans under the conduct of Titus. Determined - God hath decreed to destroy that place and people, by the miseries and desolations of war.
Daniel 9:27
He shall confirm - Christ confirmed the new covenant, By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. By his preaching. By signs and wonders. By his holy life. By his resurrection and ascension. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease - All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined - That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.
Daniel 9 - Wesley's Explanatory Notes - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
Daniel 9, Wesley's Explanatory Notes, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this commentary, produced by John Wesley between 1754 and 1765, has stood the test of time.
www.studylight.org
*The online presentation of Wesley's comments are in an outline form, may be easier to follow.
To compare the Puritan/Presbyterian Matthew Poole commentary on this section, it is online:
Daniel 9 - Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
Daniel 9, Poole's English Annotations on the Holy Bible, One of over 125 Bible commentaries freely available, this volume commentary on the Bible is highly regarded for his very prudent and judicious expositions
www.studylight.org
Poole's commentary is much longer and detailed.
The best understanding of Rev. 11:1-2 is by D. S. Clark in his preterist commentary on Revelation. I believe the symbolism from the OT explains this as it does much of Revelation.
"V. 1. John is given a reed and told to measure the temple and altar and worshippers. Why should he measure them? What was meant by this act? In the Old Testament measuring is sometimes associated with destruction as in 2Sa 8:2, Amo 7:7-8, and Hab 3:6. But sometimes it foretokens a rebuilding as in Eze 40:1-49 ff., and Zec 2:1. But what does it mean here? It is impossible to regard it as a sign of rebuilding for the second verse and elsewhere in this chapter we have the destruction of the city. While it may be regarded as a measuring for destruction, another view, perhaps as plausible, is that it signified the preservation of all that was good and true about the city and temple; the sifting out for salvation of some elements even in a wicked city ripe for destruction. This is supported by the fact that the worshippers are also included in the measuring. It is not very important which of these views we take. But what is important immediately follows.
V. 2. John is told that he need not measure the court which is without the temple for it is given to the Gentiles; and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty-two months.
Here is so plainly the destruction of Jerusalem that it could hardly be put in plainer words. It seems evident that there is no getting away from the fact that here we are dealing with the fall of Jerusalem in the year 70, — that all that John has said hitherto was leading up to this great fact, — that here we have the culmination of these prophetic seals, and this is where the first half of the book lands us. Here, as we open this chapter, is Jerusalem, still standing. Here are the temple and altar in the midst of it. This forever and absolutely precludes the idea that these events are to happen thousands of years in the future. It matters nothing what other men may say, this is what John wrote; this is what Christ revealed; this is what the Bible says; and that is final.
This incidentally shows when John was writing; while the temple and city still stood, before they had been destroyed, or about the year 66."
*John is writing true prophecy, not writing about what has already happened. D. S. Clark is a "Partial Preterist" not a "Full Preterist" as he shows in chapter 20.
Reddsta
Active Member
By citing D. S. Clark who made his commentary around 100 years ago you make two statements about your character...they are yours Arthur81 and as such you are certainly entitled to and seem comfortable with them.
First...in citing Clark and his commentary from 100 years ago you are signifying that you do not see any of the prophetic revelation slated for the end of the age as having come to pass or into play in the last 100 years.
Second...in your cutting and pasting of the D.S. Clark commentary you promptly ignored anything I posted.
It is what it is Arthur81...sorry to have bothered you Sir.
As to ignoring what you posted, I cannot take time to refute all the errors I see on this thread. I do NOT deny that the general resurrection and judgment is in our future, nor did D. S. Clark in his commentary. I do emphatically deny that there is any specific sign of prophecy we can point to being fulfilled in the last 100 years. I am referring to the establishment of the modern day Israel in 1948 which I see NO connection to biblical prophecy. We have been in the last days since the first century, and wickedness and evil has always been with us. Even the spirit of anti-Christ existed in the 1st century. Now as to my quoting a commentary from 100 years ago, I'll present my other approach for balance, a modern commentary from 2006 -
Along with the KJV, ASV translations and solid, traditional Bible commentary; I also use an Academic Study Bible since its commentary is written from the anti-supernatural viewpoint, and the translation is the NRSV, which also is translated from a more anti-supernatural viewpoint. In other words they deny the Divine inspiration of the scriptures by the Holy Spirit, and present purely a humanistic understanding. They view the Bible as men writing about God, not God inspiring men to write His message without error to mankind. I FIND THIS HELPFUL because to a large degree it removes the theological and doctrinal slant of traditional study Bibles. It is therefore helpful to use in comparison to Christian, study Bibles who believe in the supernatural nature of the Bible and its message.
The Harper-Collins STUDY BIBLE Fully Revised and Updated with NRSV Copyright 2006
From the introduction to Revelation
"Date
MANY CHRISTIAN WRITERS thought that Revelation had been written toward the end of Domitian's reign (81-96 CE)but a few later writers thought that John had written a generation earlier, during the persecution that occurred in 64 under Nero (54-68 CE). Evidence supporting both dates can be found in the book. In favor of the earlier date, 11:1-3 suggests that the Jewish temple in Jerusalem (destroyed by the Romans 70) was still standing when the book was written. Further, the code name of the beast in 13:18 is 666, widely thought to symbolize the name Nero Caesar. Other data, however, suggest a date late in the first century. For example, there are several illusions (13:3; 17:9-11) to the legend of Nero's return, which circulated through out the eastern Mediterranean during the two decades following his suicide in 68. Further, Revelation frequently uses "Babylon" as a code name for Rome (14:8;16:19; 17:5, 18; 18:2, 10, 21), but evidence suggests that Jews used this code name only after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70. In light of conflicting evidence for the early and late date of Revelation, it seems likely that the book was actually composed and assembled in stages over many years and was only completed in its present form toward the end of the first or the early second century CE. Though certainty is not possible, the first edition of the book probably consisted 1:4-11; 4:1-22.5, to which 1:1-3;; 1:12-3:22; 22:6-21 were added in a second edition."
Just as Academic Study Bibles date the book of Daniel centuries later than traditionally, because it predicts things happening centuries after Daniel was written, so to the anti-supernatural commentator who denies inspired prophecy, Daniel must be written later like it was "history". In like manner as I have underlined above; they attribute a later date to Revelation thinking John could not have actually prophesied what was to happen soon. But to the Christian believer, it is PROPHECY. I've underlined their thinking in the passage above on dating Revelation. They would stay with the earlier date, had they not denied that this was truly prophecy, not history written after the fact!
Revelation annotations:
"11:1 Measure, a metaphor for preservation (Ezek 40:3-42:20; Zech 2:1-5). Temple of God, here the temple in Jerusalem, not in heaven (see note on 11:19). Altar, i.e. the priest's court where the altar stood.)
11:19 Temple in heaven, the counterpart to the temple in Jerusalem. Ark of his covenant, the heavenly counterpart to the sacred chest, representing the presence of God, placed in the holy of holies of the tabernacle and temple (Ex 25:10-22; 1 kings 8:1-13; Heb 9:4) Flashes of lightning, typical theophanic language; see note on 4:5."
I believe this Academic Study Bible also evidence for the earlier date for Revelation, so I remain convinced of the pre-70 AD date. The early date is in complete agreement to the time-frame given by the book itself in 1:1-3 and 22:6, 10 and a futuristic interpretation must ignore those clear and emphatic statements.
Redd, if this is the post you say I ignored, I'll address it now.
The Greek used in Rev. 11:1 and 11:19 are both - G3485 naos
From the BDAG - naos "a place or structure specifically associated with or set apart for a deity, who is frequently perceived to be using it as a dwelling, temple."
a - of temples generally
b- of the temple at Jerusalem
C - of a heavenly sanctuary
d - of a human body or part thereof, in imagery
e - The uses in J 2:19 20, 21 call for special attention"
The definition for naos means the "place or structure". Notice b & c, Your argument falls apart. The word has broad applications as shown in the 5 uses.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Most scholars would place the writing of Revelation at around 95 AD. The Church of Smyrna didn't even exist in 70AD and wasn't mentioned anywhere else in scripture. Polycarp ( who was a disciple of John), was said to be the first Bishop of that church and he was still in diapers! Polycarp said himself, no church existed in Smyrna in 67 AD.
Additionally the problems concerning Ephesus and Laodicea in Revelation did not exist in the early 60's, when Paul's epistles were likely written. They would have overlapped and conflicted with Paul's epistles if Revelation was written prior to 70 AD. John likely did not move to Ephesus until after Paul and Peter were martyred. Nero killed toetured and Christians, that was his style. He would have also killed John. But John became banished to Patmos, that was Domitian's style of punishment.
_____<<<___<<_<<
I don't have a problem with Daniel 9 being fulfilled (I don 't buy the Gap theory either), but the time frame of 2 Thes. 2:4 is about Jesus Second Coming.
YLT uses "sanctuary": "who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God.
This is why some scholars say a new Temple needs to be built prior to His coming. I say it doesn't. The Temple mount is a sanctuary, the whole area. The Mosque is on this mount. For argument sake, if the anti-Christ is a Muslim, ( and I think he is), then He would sit inside the Mosque and make that claim after his armies of ten nations (of whom Iran has several gathered as we speak) attacks and invades Jerusalem.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
As for this kind of observation and logic:
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
The traditional view is based on as much trust in the ones dating in antiquity as does the more modern view trusts the dating of the modern daters.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well show this supposed "explicit statement of Scripture, which give no hint of a gap between the 69th and 70th." and we can discuss this supposed explicit statement..
The prophecy is literal and we have not seen any of the events declared describing what takes place during the 70th week come to pass. YOu readily accept the first 69 weeks as literal then you go into some mystical interpretation for the fulfilment of the 70th week. that is nonsense and failed hermeneutics.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
This is the sort of anti-intellectualism I've come to expect. God forbid that we should examine the Scriptures and use our brains at the same time!
There is no need to go "mystical" on the 70th week. The following article makes it clear.
The 69 weeks .... The remaining week
(The following is just a part of the article. The 70th week is quite literal! Read the entire article, it is not long.)
"In the opening chapters of the book of Acts we see that the disciples are preaching the Word and many Jews are being converted and accept Jesus as the Messiah. And then something interesting happens in Acts 7 and 8, when Stephen is taken before the Sanhedrin and they end up stoning him. Guess when this happened? 34 AD. Does that date ring a bell? The end of the 70 week prophecy. You might not have noticed it before, but have you seen the striking similarities between the death of Stephen and of Jesus?
Both were taken before the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26:59; Mark 14:55; Acts 6:12, 15)
Both were accused by false witnesses (Mark 14:55; Acts 6:11, 13-14)
Both reviewed the history of the Jewish nation. Both spoke about God sending the prophets and finally sending His own son (Matthew 23:32; 21:33-44; Acts 7)
In both, money was paid as a bribe to the false witnesses (Matthew 26:60; Acts 6:11)
Both were accused of speaking against Moses and the temple (Matthew 27:40; John 11:50-52, Acts 6:13-14)
Both accused the Jewish leaders of shutting their ears to the truth about the Messiah (Matthew 23:29- 36;Acts 7:51-54)
Both prayed for God to forgive the sin of their enemies (Luke 23:34; Acts 7:60)
Both were killed outside the city (Hebrews 13:12; Acts 7:58)
The innocence of both could be seen on their face (John 19:4, 6; Acts 6:15)
In both there was a “mob mentality” (Matthew 27:24; Acts 7:57-58)
On top of all these similarities, Stephen’s speech also testifies of it. We find a remarkable shift in the terms that Stephen used in his speech. He changed from speaking about ‘our fathers’ (Acts 7:11, 19, 38, 44, 45) to ‘your fathers’ (Acts 7:51-52). Stephen did not call for repentance, as was generally done by the prophets. His speech seems to form a conclusion, an overview of why the case will now be closed. The response of the Sanhedrin was clear, they once more rejected the Holy Spirit and in one accord rejected the gospel (Acts 7:57). It is sure that this marked the end of the seventy-week prophecy as the theocracy of Israel chose to reject Jesus."
How Jesus Fulfilled The 70 Week Prophecy | The Christian Life
The 70 week prophecy foretold events 500 years before they happened. See the credibility of the Bible, the role of Israel today and the timing of the gospel.
thechristianlife.com
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Wow and I usually great the insult I use my brain too much!!! but tell us seeing as you accuse me of being anti intellectual, what do modern "scholars" have more keener insight than do the first four century "biblical scholars" do not have. Especially in light of the fact they were much much closer to the events than todays scholars.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I can't apologize for your anger. You simply place more faith in modern scholarship than I do! I learned to be skeptical of modern scholarship after the Jesus seminar of "biblical scholars" decided that 80% of the words attributed to Jesus , Jesus did not say! Their "observations and logic" was based on extremely faulty starting datum points.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
First, I didn't claim they had keener insight. I'm a big fan of the church fathers and have read/studied many of them. You shouldn't ask me to defend a point that I didn't make... that's not a fair argument.
Modern and ancient scholars do different things. Modern scholars analyze grammar, history, archaeology and comparative religion. The church fathers preserve tradition, compare manuscripts, and seek to establish doctrine from authority.
There isn't a good reason to discard one in favor the other.
And your comments were anti-intellectual. You literally condemned the use of logic.
Reddsta
Active Member
I see...you
"Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:10 NASB)
It's not a difficult thing for those alive in the spirit...difficult doesn't even to begin to explain why...the natural is blind and therefore in that state of separation from God known as...death.
For those who can see..."the testimony of Jesus"...that's when "He" is made manifest of course, He is alive and His testimony is in His appearing as the Lord of glory. He is clothed in the brightness of His Fathers Glory...in the way He appears is in His temple...His body...here on the earth today.
That's His testimony...He is alive upon the earth in His Body...and as such…the “spirit of prophecy” is flowing…indeed it has been flowing ever since He began to pour Himself into humanity on the earth almost 2000 years ago.
Unless you are spiritually dead…you would not say this. “I do emphatically deny that there is any specific sign of prophecy we can point to being fulfilled in the last 100 years.” Here it is important to remember what the Lord said...“that which is born of the flesh is flesh…that which is born of Spirit is spirit…do not be amazed that I said to you, You must be born again.”
Once again Arthur81...sorry to have disturbed you by...in some way putting upon you to...feel the pressure of considering the need to..."take time to refute all the errors on this thread." You are an important and busy man as we can see...carry on sir.
Redd...
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well if by condemning logic you mean I reject human logic over the Word of god- then yes call me guilty!
History, archeology, comparative religions and written grammar have nothing to do with establishing a date for when an epistle was written. An example: I write to many people during the course of the year. My grammar will differ from one person or group to another based on what I know of them and how best to communicate with them. All are written by me though the grammar style may differ greatly!
But to seek to possibly defend myself- please give a specific concept of logic you think I condemn.
I love archeology, history, I have taken courses on comparative religions and have studied koine greek and Hebrew/Aramaic. but i know that all of them can only offer some evidence but not conclusive evidence to dating writings.
ALL SIX POINTS OF DAN 9:24 were fulfilled within the 490 years, which ended in the 1st century. They were fulfilled in Christ and the body of Christ, the temple of God. I'll stay with God's word on that rather than the schemes of men.
To finish the transgression:
(rebellion will be stopped) REB
(BDB - rebellion against individuals, nation or God)
(finish or restrain) ASV marg.
"She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (Matt 1:21 NRSV)
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1John 3:8 KJV)
"So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. (Rom 6:11-12 NRSV)
To make an end of sin:
(put an end to sin)NRSV
"for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the world was created. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the climax of history to abolish sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Heb 9:26 REB)
"For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Heb 10:14 NRSV)
"...erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross." (Col 2:14 NRSV)
To make reconciliation:
(to atone for iniquity) NRSV
(iniquity expiated) REB
"and through him to reconcile all things to himself, making peace through the shedding of his blood on the cross—all things, whether on earth or in heaven." (Col 1:20 REB)
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." (Rom 5:10 KJV)
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." (Heb 2:17 KJV)
These first 3 purposes just covered all together refer to all sorts of sin/sins of His people, those who are believers. ALL THREE of the previous goals were accomplished in the life and death of Jesus on the cross!
To bring in everlasting righteousness:
"In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.'” (Jer 23:6 NRSV)
"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your law is the truth." (Ps 119:142 NRSV)
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2Cor 5:21 NRSV)
To seal up the vision & prophecy:
(vision and prophecy ratified) REB
(vision... *may be fulfilled) Douay
"Then he said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have declared! Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?” Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things about himself in all the scriptures." (Luke 24:25-27 NRSV)
"After this, when Jesus knew that all was now finished, he said (in order to fulfill the scripture), ' am thirsty.' A jar full of sour wine was standing there. So they put a sponge full of the wine on a branch of hyssop and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the wine, he said, 'It is finished.' Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."(John 19:28-30 NRSV)
To anoint the most Holy:
(.... Holy thing or one...) NRSV
(saint of saints may be anointed) DRB
"With the anointing oil anoint the Tabernacle and everything in it, thus consecrating it and all its furnishings; it will then be holy." (Exod 40:9 REB) *This was the OT type or shadow
"And if you and we belong to Christ, guaranteed as his and anointed, it is all God’s doing;" (2Cor 1:21 REB)
"My main point is: this is the kind of high priest we have, and he has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of Majesty in heaven," (Heb 8:1 REB)
"For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us:" (Heb 9:24 RV)
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus," (Heb 10:19 RV)
"But you rejected the Holy and Righteous One and asked to have a murderer given to you," (Acts 3:14 NRSV)
All was completed and fulfilled in the 1st century "upon thy people and upon thy holy city". Stephen concludes as much in sermon read in Acts chapter seven. IT IS THE NONSENSICAL NOTION OF MEN TO INSERT A 2000 YEAR GAP IN THE 490 YEARS; THE SCRIPTURES SHOW IT, FOR ALL WAS ACCOMPLISHED IN THE 490 YEARS PROPHESIED!
To finish the transgression:
(rebellion will be stopped) REB
(BDB - rebellion against individuals, nation or God)
(finish or restrain) ASV marg.
"She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (Matt 1:21 NRSV)
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1John 3:8 KJV)
"So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. (Rom 6:11-12 NRSV)
To make an end of sin:
(put an end to sin)NRSV
"for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the world was created. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the climax of history to abolish sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Heb 9:26 REB)
"For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Heb 10:14 NRSV)
"...erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross." (Col 2:14 NRSV)
To make reconciliation:
(to atone for iniquity) NRSV
(iniquity expiated) REB
"and through him to reconcile all things to himself, making peace through the shedding of his blood on the cross—all things, whether on earth or in heaven." (Col 1:20 REB)
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." (Rom 5:10 KJV)
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." (Heb 2:17 KJV)
These first 3 purposes just covered all together refer to all sorts of sin/sins of His people, those who are believers. ALL THREE of the previous goals were accomplished in the life and death of Jesus on the cross!
To bring in everlasting righteousness:
"In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.'” (Jer 23:6 NRSV)
"Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your law is the truth." (Ps 119:142 NRSV)
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." (2Cor 5:21 NRSV)
To seal up the vision & prophecy:
(vision and prophecy ratified) REB
(vision... *may be fulfilled) Douay
"Then he said to them, “Oh, how foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have declared! Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?” Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things about himself in all the scriptures." (Luke 24:25-27 NRSV)
"After this, when Jesus knew that all was now finished, he said (in order to fulfill the scripture), ' am thirsty.' A jar full of sour wine was standing there. So they put a sponge full of the wine on a branch of hyssop and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the wine, he said, 'It is finished.' Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."(John 19:28-30 NRSV)
To anoint the most Holy:
(.... Holy thing or one...) NRSV
(saint of saints may be anointed) DRB
"With the anointing oil anoint the Tabernacle and everything in it, thus consecrating it and all its furnishings; it will then be holy." (Exod 40:9 REB) *This was the OT type or shadow
"And if you and we belong to Christ, guaranteed as his and anointed, it is all God’s doing;" (2Cor 1:21 REB)
"My main point is: this is the kind of high priest we have, and he has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of Majesty in heaven," (Heb 8:1 REB)
"For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us:" (Heb 9:24 RV)
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus," (Heb 10:19 RV)
"But you rejected the Holy and Righteous One and asked to have a murderer given to you," (Acts 3:14 NRSV)
All was completed and fulfilled in the 1st century "upon thy people and upon thy holy city". Stephen concludes as much in sermon read in Acts chapter seven. IT IS THE NONSENSICAL NOTION OF MEN TO INSERT A 2000 YEAR GAP IN THE 490 YEARS; THE SCRIPTURES SHOW IT, FOR ALL WAS ACCOMPLISHED IN THE 490 YEARS PROPHESIED!
Redd, all I see in your reply is a rather pompous self-righteousness that you are so spiritual to see things not written the scriptures. I'll reply to one most would say needs to be fulfilled in our day.I see...you
"Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:10 NASB)
It's not a difficult thing for those alive in the spirit...difficult doesn't even to begin to explain why...the natural is blind and therefore in that state of separation from God known as...death.
For those who can see..."the testimony of Jesus"...that's when "He" is made manifest of course, He is alive and His testimony is in His appearing as the Lord of glory. He is clothed in the brightness of His Fathers Glory...in the way He appears is in His temple...His body...here on the earth today.
That's His testimony...He is alive upon the earth in His Body...and as such…the “spirit of prophecy” is flowing…indeed it has been flowing ever since He began to pour Himself into humanity on the earth almost 2000 years ago.
Unless you are spiritually dead…you would not say this. “I do emphatically deny that there is any specific sign of prophecy we can point to being fulfilled in the last 100 years.” Here it is important to remember what the Lord said...“that which is born of the flesh is flesh…that which is born of Spirit is spirit…do not be amazed that I said to you, You must be born again.”
Once again Arthur81...sorry to have disturbed you by...in some way putting upon you to...feel the pressure of considering the need to..."take time to refute all the errors on this thread." You are an important and busy man as we can see...carry on sir.
Redd...
"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:" (Matt 24:32 KJV)
the parallel written in Luke's gospel
"And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;" (Luke 21:29 KJV)
Not just the "fig tree", but ALL the trees! The presentation of this verse as applying to the current state of Israel in Palestine comes from Gnosticism, NOT from the canonical books of the Christian bible. Our Bible not make the fig tree represent Israel: See their online library:
"And I, Peter, answered and said unto him: Interpret unto me concerning the fig-tree, whereby we shall perceive it; for throughout all its days doth the fig-tree send forth shoots, and every year it bringeth forth its fruit for its master. What then meaneth the parable of the fig-tree? We know it not.
And the Master (Lord) answered and said unto me: Understandest thou not that the fig-tree is the house of Israel?"
The Apocalypse of Peter -- Gnostic Society Library: Christian Apocrypha and Early Christian Literature
The Apocalypse of Peter -- Christian Apocrypha and Early Christian Literature, in a vast collection of materials dealing with Gnosis and Gnosticism, both ancient and modern. The site includes the Gnostic Library, with the complete Nag Hammadi Library and a large collection of other primary...
gnosis.org
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