That is so true!Axehead said:
You know, I actually haven't thought about it like that before. Thank you for sharing that.
Dear Church, Here’s Why People Are REALLY Leaving You
- Thread starter Angelina
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You know, I actually haven't thought about it like that before. Thank you for sharing that.
All that is good, but in reality it is a club and I pay a fee, an offering or tithe as some call it.
So I must discern if I want to give my monies to a church that then uses those monies for smoke machines lrg screen TVs coffee and donuts an expensive surround sound then hear a sermon on how god can make me rich.
So I must discern if I want to give my monies to a church that then uses those monies for smoke machines lrg screen TVs coffee and donuts an expensive surround sound then hear a sermon on how god can make me rich.
Dear axehead, Tess, and Ruth... I think all of you had very thoughtful and true things to say here. This is a very interesting thread started by Angelina. Thank you all!
Wormwood
Chaps
I can't fellowship with legalistic, unloving, performance oriented people that are always counting nickels, noses and numbers. And I don't believe the Lord calls us to. In fact, He said something about "shaking the dust off your feet" and moving on. If you find yourself in that situation, be an example of Christ's love (this will bring more persecution) but don't cause any division, and just leave quietly. You will find after awhile that you will have no choice but to leave.
Wormwood
Chaps
I think we need to be cautious here people. I do not think these accusations are representative of a vast majority of churches. There are lots of young believers as well as seekers that read these forums. Do we really want to give the impression that all organized gatherings of Christians center around arrogance and greed?! It just isn't true.
Now I agree with you there brother. My old Pastor use to say in regards the Church that "It may not be a perfect boat but it's the only boat afloat"
My original intention in posting this article was in relation to some of the Churches that I have been personally involved in and the issues the writer had pointed out. Point 1. I have had some awesome worship times during Sunday service but as I have already stated.
Sunday service is not really the place for deep and meaningful conversations or relationship building. The best place for that as well as study is within a home/house group setting where more time is available for getting to know people better and for asking the hard questions...This is what the writer was silent on...
Point 2. I was not really talking about "eschatological frameworks and theological systems." but rather terminology used in Church that newbies do not understand ie: "fellowship", "born-again", "faith walk", "grace walk", giving God a "Praise Offering", "impacting our communities with the gospel" etc. Keeping it simple and clear for newbies is just plain common sense.
Point 3. You can do both...the Church should have a vision for the church and for the community. The Church vision should be as big as the community vision...after all we need to make room for them when they arrive
Point 4. Not all Churches are frighteningly quite about real world issues. Some have sent their best soldiers into the mission fields.
Point 5. I understand some of the points the writer had made in regards to love however, the church is full of people who struggle in the area of loving others as well as loving themselves. It is not a perfect boat and there are a lot of wounded on-board...but it looks toward the head [Christ our example] for the answers to these internal/external struggles because only God can transform us into the image of his son...and he's doing it on an individual basis and through sanctification within the body of gathered believers which he calls ~ his Church.
Be Blessed!
My original intention in posting this article was in relation to some of the Churches that I have been personally involved in and the issues the writer had pointed out. Point 1. I have had some awesome worship times during Sunday service but as I have already stated.
Sunday service is not really the place for deep and meaningful conversations or relationship building. The best place for that as well as study is within a home/house group setting where more time is available for getting to know people better and for asking the hard questions...This is what the writer was silent on...
Point 2. I was not really talking about "eschatological frameworks and theological systems." but rather terminology used in Church that newbies do not understand ie: "fellowship", "born-again", "faith walk", "grace walk", giving God a "Praise Offering", "impacting our communities with the gospel" etc. Keeping it simple and clear for newbies is just plain common sense.
Point 3. You can do both...the Church should have a vision for the church and for the community. The Church vision should be as big as the community vision...after all we need to make room for them when they arrive
Point 4. Not all Churches are frighteningly quite about real world issues. Some have sent their best soldiers into the mission fields.
Point 5. I understand some of the points the writer had made in regards to love however, the church is full of people who struggle in the area of loving others as well as loving themselves. It is not a perfect boat and there are a lot of wounded on-board...but it looks toward the head [Christ our example] for the answers to these internal/external struggles because only God can transform us into the image of his son...and he's doing it on an individual basis and through sanctification within the body of gathered believers which he calls ~ his Church.
Be Blessed!
Just a couple things for a soft disagreement on this.
First, Jesus talked about money more than salvation, heaven, or many other topics we would consider essential to the faith. It is indeed indicative that where we put our money reveals our faith, so yes it should certainly go to the poor and other projects necessary, I would argue, to be the church. So we find agreement here on the first part, at least.
However, it's unfair to say that times haven't changed and we should operate without money as the local church. If you run an organization of any size, it takes some level of organization, which costs in one form or another. In my experience, you cannot always count on volunteers to get it right, not to mention that they are giving up money in the form of time in the volunteering. Many people with tremendous intentions grow fatigued of their tasks amongst other things, and it's generally the case that most modern churches already employ volunteers where able anyway.
I guess what I am trying to get to is that the Bible was written from the time that Christians could be counted in the hundreds and then up to maybe 10s of thousands or possibly hundreds of thousands. Simply because it doesn't not fully comment about how a church is run or not run doesn't mean that resource wasn't used. In fact, the Bible in several places refers to paying ministers. In 1 Timothy 5:17-18 Paul says:
In addition to this, the Levitical priesthood gave them a system where they were dependent upon the congregation (the other tribes of Israel) for their food and other needs. Probably why this wasn't discussed in greater detail in the NT (it's extremely detailed in the OT) stemmed from the fact that it would have been presumed that people needed to eat and a pattern was already there as established in the OT. The Bible alludes to churches meeting outside the homes as the numbers grew, and these would have required funds to own, rent or maintain just as they do now. In many cases, we know that noble benefactors in the form of rich Christians provided the meeting places out of their wealth. It seems a little more organic, but the premise is the same in that someone paid for it.
I think we also look to the life of Jesus as well, as he remarked that the poor will always be with us (Matthew 26:11), but there is a duty to God. A lot of people overplay this verse and don't give the poor anything, which is also an error, but we know there are certain things that must be taken care of for a church to survive.
Some do. Many here do, and are simply in error.
Agreed, but my experiences are usually that most churches have this or desperately want it these days. We're finally understanding that church is community outside of the walls. I think the writer gets this and wants to communicate this.
Agreed. I guess I am blessed in that our pastor is very good on this front. My old time favorite is an "unspoken," because if you spoke and unspoken it's now spoken.
I would probably rather you write the article.Point 3. You can do both...the Church should have a vision for the church and for the community. The Church vision should be as big as the community vision...after all we need to make room for them when they arrive
Well, in defense of many churches, a lot of them do small things. Because you hear of the social issues, that's what is perceived. The problem lay in that this perception is colored by media and those who would write the narrative. Most small churches aren't spending Sundays railing against the "gays and queers" for instance, but might be doing small things like just providing meals or sending a person overseas quietly. I've learned that people do hospitality differently. I love going to little country churches that get villainized in this narrative a lot. They might not be doing something huge, but they'll serve a grieving family by making a meal, praying and simply showing up. Jesus is there too.
Westboro Baptist is a prime example. The church has less than a hundred in attendance and even it's overfluffed roles count only a couple hundred "members" and yet there is a perception that this is a sizable portion of the Christian population. You'll even find quotes from some small church in Somewhereville, USA who says something extreme and that's then applied as the given narrative for 30%, 60%, or more of the Christian world.
Well, if it were easy...
This is well said. It takes time and lots of grace. We often don't have either.
And now you said what I said earlier in one sentence!You're gonna incur the same problems of paying bills without being incorporated...but it was not where I was going with the O/P.
Thanks for your input though...and I hope to see you around the board.
Hi all!
I have cleaned up this thread as it had drifted from the O/P [article] but some of the points made are relevant enough to create another thread ~
"Church Forum". Dear Church, Here’s Why People Are REALLY Leaving You [Church Finances]
See the link below
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21056-dear-church-heres-why-people-are-really-leaving-you-church-finances/
Thanks!
Angie
I have cleaned up this thread as it had drifted from the O/P [article] but some of the points made are relevant enough to create another thread ~
"Church Forum". Dear Church, Here’s Why People Are REALLY Leaving You [Church Finances]
See the link below
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21056-dear-church-heres-why-people-are-really-leaving-you-church-finances/
Thanks!
Angie
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
Okay, first Pom,you are very disgruntled and really need some self evaluation....I will pray for you.
Next, I recently returned to my church after 17 years of being gone... I'm 32 years old now. Do the math. Any way, so this is a Presbyterian church. Very traditional. But now they are fighting to keep up with non-denominational. They are trying to tune in to the younger crowds if you will and the evolving church as a whole. Through the service I noticed one consistent thing, there was no joy, no conviction amongst the congregation. The message was good that day but the delivery was horrible.... Ironically, the sermon was on receiving the Holy Spirit. My best description was "going through the motions". and that's what the church seems to do today... go through the motions... Now some friends of mine told me to leave that church as it would do more harm then good for me....
I pondered that for a moment but then I was stopped by this simple thought... "But what if God wants me to help revive the church?"" I don't feel this was the HS speaking but I certainly began to pray about it... No answer yet.. so it at least is not the right time.
That being said, we can sit here and complain about what is wrong with the church, but what are we doing about it other than complaining and leaving... POM blames the pastor... But what if it isn't all the pastors fault?? If we are so spiritually strong outside of the church, why would we leave we leave our brethren behind to spiritually die?? If you can do that, you do not walk with Christ... You are not proof of Him on this Earth, and you certainly do not know Him, and He never knew you. Is it not your duty that He calls you to? Should you not want to try to save the church and your brethren? If you can turn your back on them and leave them to the fall of Satan, the Christ would certainly turn his back to you in His judgment. Christ calls you to this!!! If you do nothing other than run..... You do not know the love of Christ!
So ask yourself again.... Who's fault is it you are leaving the Church? Stop looking around. Let me hand you a mirror.
Next, I recently returned to my church after 17 years of being gone... I'm 32 years old now. Do the math. Any way, so this is a Presbyterian church. Very traditional. But now they are fighting to keep up with non-denominational. They are trying to tune in to the younger crowds if you will and the evolving church as a whole. Through the service I noticed one consistent thing, there was no joy, no conviction amongst the congregation. The message was good that day but the delivery was horrible.... Ironically, the sermon was on receiving the Holy Spirit. My best description was "going through the motions". and that's what the church seems to do today... go through the motions... Now some friends of mine told me to leave that church as it would do more harm then good for me....
I pondered that for a moment but then I was stopped by this simple thought... "But what if God wants me to help revive the church?"" I don't feel this was the HS speaking but I certainly began to pray about it... No answer yet.. so it at least is not the right time.
That being said, we can sit here and complain about what is wrong with the church, but what are we doing about it other than complaining and leaving... POM blames the pastor... But what if it isn't all the pastors fault?? If we are so spiritually strong outside of the church, why would we leave we leave our brethren behind to spiritually die?? If you can do that, you do not walk with Christ... You are not proof of Him on this Earth, and you certainly do not know Him, and He never knew you. Is it not your duty that He calls you to? Should you not want to try to save the church and your brethren? If you can turn your back on them and leave them to the fall of Satan, the Christ would certainly turn his back to you in His judgment. Christ calls you to this!!! If you do nothing other than run..... You do not know the love of Christ!
So ask yourself again.... Who's fault is it you are leaving the Church? Stop looking around. Let me hand you a mirror.
[email protected]
Choir Loft
The article has hit the nail on the head. Church, Inc. has become a business franchise. In some denominations that is exactly the language used - franchise.Angelina said:
The religious country club has become hollow, devoid of meaning and purpose and completely distant from God. In several major denominations the Word of God has been denied at the official organizational level as being on a par with every other work of literature in the human library.(1) Consequently, those who seek God are forced to do so alone, in the personal vacuum of the internet or in wandering like aimless lost souls from one religious venue in town to the other.
The church as an organization is almost completely debauched and its shepherds have corrupted themselves with worldly goods and purposes.
"If there is a decay of conscience, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the public press lacks moral discernment, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the church is degenerate and worldly, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the world loses its interest in Christianity, the pulpit is responsible for it. If Satan rules in our halls of legislation, the pulpit is responsible for it. If our politics become so corrupt that their very foundations of our government are ready to fall away, the pulpit is responsible for it."
- Charles Finney
During the reformation, the movement begun by Martin Luther inspired individuals to their own personal search for and study of God's ways. The Bible was taken out of the exclusive hands of the priests of the Roman Catholic church(2) and put where it belonged most - in the hands of individual Christians. It was accepted at that time that the onus for salvation and religious growth was the responsibility of the individual. That perception remains to this day, albeit due to the abandonment by the shepherds rather than leading. It also gave rise to democracy - the rule of the will of the people.
Today our nation as well as believers have been abandoned by the church and the church in turn has been abandoned by believers. May God have mercy upon us.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft....
(1) Specifically Presbyterian and Lutheran that I'm aware of. I was present in the inner circles of the Episcopal Church some years ago when the influence of the Holy Spirit was rejected by leadership at the top level. Although the Methodist Church hasn't overtly denied the necessity of being born again, they have removed it from their literature, their sermons and their leadership 'talking points'.
(2)
"Rome Sweet Rome,
Bet it ever so sinful,
There's no place like Rome."
- Malcolm Muggeridge
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
Interesting point with (1) I am Presbyterian... or was... But I recently went back to see how they were doing.... And you know what the message was? It was on receiving the Holy Spirit and being born again.... Just sayn...[email protected] said:
BA out!
The issue is that they will not heed our counsel.
We need to shake the dust off our feet and go.
We're not running away from God. We're leaving behind the traitors to our King.
King first before anything. Even before ourselves and very much before those that do not follow the King.
I will deny any that deny my King.
We need to shake the dust off our feet and go.
We're not running away from God. We're leaving behind the traitors to our King.
King first before anything. Even before ourselves and very much before those that do not follow the King.
I will deny any that deny my King.
why did/do i leave/not-go Church/God (if i was ever really genuine at all)?
Either/both of my own bad internal/heart/soil,
and/or
bad/hell external things suffering & others bad/good in/actions.
Some of these things are church fault/failing, some no ones fault, some my own fault:
- too many churches. Here there are even 2/3 chruches in same street/arpound corner. No community (many different people/ages/etc).
Notice that in Revelation the first 6 chruches are places, but the 7th is plural LaodiceaNS.
- difficulties for certain ages/marital status. I am single at 42 (now). This "city" and churches is largely families and retired. It hurts to see married people. Hard not having singles.
- "church" is just a block of singing followed by block of sermon (and maybe 2 minutes (fluoridated water) tea & chat) (then everyone goes home to own lives/families/jobs/etc.). (Also eveyrone stands, they don't say its okay not to stand, so i feel anxiety.) No fellowship/sharing/interaction.
It is true but also is not true that home group is place for fellowship. Church (is body of christ, and) is anywhere 2 or 3 or more christians gathered (in his name). Churches won't let you join home groups unless a regular sunday attender first. Also some of us aren't comfortible going to peoples homes. Why can't a group meet at the church too?
Some home groups are just as bad: block of standing & singing.
- location some churches i just can't go to because of location/distance.
- water fluoriudation.
- I simply am not able to get out any much esp on set day and set (early) time, esp on day when everythung else is closed too.
- not welcoming/friendly. (Though pastor also said my fault for not trying anyu one church for long enough.)
- "tongues".
- no choice for saturday not sunday except SDA chruches.
- i am bad soil: i struggle with the troubles/worries of the world (eg being single, etc).
- the bible does say will be a falling away.
- Jesus on outside. I stand at door and knock. People are on outside too.
- ahaba "love" value 13 = ehad "unity/union/united/one" value 13. Jesus always went on about Love and being One.
"in him all things hold together".
- its not (just) "money" but "Mammon".
- Ministry needs. Christians don't care/love/help. No one cares.
God/Jesus has many mouths, but few ears/eyes/hearts/bowels/hands/feet.
- chruch should be Body/corporation (not business/corporate), maybe should be like spaceship : 3 parts 1 pilot/command, 2 navigation/communication, 3 engines/power.
Why is it that no one would/will help me with things like getting unfluoridated spring water, no one would help except the pastor! Pastors shouldn't have to/can't do everything.
- No one cares. everyone is too busy with own lives/families/problems/jobs and has no time.
- Laodicea was centre of Asclepius god of medicine worship. Its always "oh go see a doctor / mental health services".
("Am I my brothers keeper" - Cain. We are all brothers according to 1 John.)
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows [includes lonely/alone/singles and people without families?] in their affliction, and to keep himself unspoted from the world." - James1:27.
- Treat others as if you/they are Jesus.
- modern christianity just preaches the negative side of bible (carry own cross, tribulation, "single is good", faith, ) not preach/practice the postives (healing/deliverance, bear one anothers burdens, love one another).
If christianity is all just about "good" suffering/tribulation and after die then why would i want to be christian? Where is the "Good news"?
eternal life is here and now not just after die.
love not just commandments.
marriage not just single.
comfort/consolation not just tribulation.
eternal life not just die self.
Jesus healing/works/miracles not just sermon/words/teaching.
bear one anothers burdens not just carry own cross.
the greatest of these is love not just faith.
reward not just punish.
follow not just forsake.
practice not just preach.
heart/bowels/eye/ear/hand/feet not just mouths
buildup not just pull down/criticise
- church sermons just preach same moralistic/legalistic/individualistic work/self/effort stuff the world/regime does (or itching ears).
"I require mercy not sacrifice" - bible.
- don't preach "revival". Look in mirror as someone said in post here already (real issue is each persons genuine relationship with God/Jesus). Care about the seats already filled.
- prayer (& war).
- Why are there people in wheelchairs, etc?
- evolution/"science"
everyone believes the "science/experts/academics/professionals" and disbelieves the "pseudo/religion/lay-amateur/fringe".
- church "cares" about issues like homosexuality but doesn't care about things like singles etc.
- regulations/laws: today any group etc has strict rules/laws/regulations they have to conform to (sort of like health and safety). Distrust/trust problems. I do understand that we have to be careful/wary, but it is also hard on both.
- the 1st love is the more/most important thing.
- other things on same day. This system cunningly has other things on same day. Real estates have open homes on same day and time as church.
- Church is body* of Jesus*/Christ (head*).
as above, so below.
- even Jesus said everyone left him "are you going to leave me too?"
Sean.
Either/both of my own bad internal/heart/soil,
and/or
bad/hell external things suffering & others bad/good in/actions.
Some of these things are church fault/failing, some no ones fault, some my own fault:
- too many churches. Here there are even 2/3 chruches in same street/arpound corner. No community (many different people/ages/etc).
Notice that in Revelation the first 6 chruches are places, but the 7th is plural LaodiceaNS.
- difficulties for certain ages/marital status. I am single at 42 (now). This "city" and churches is largely families and retired. It hurts to see married people. Hard not having singles.
- "church" is just a block of singing followed by block of sermon (and maybe 2 minutes (fluoridated water) tea & chat) (then everyone goes home to own lives/families/jobs/etc.). (Also eveyrone stands, they don't say its okay not to stand, so i feel anxiety.) No fellowship/sharing/interaction.
It is true but also is not true that home group is place for fellowship. Church (is body of christ, and) is anywhere 2 or 3 or more christians gathered (in his name). Churches won't let you join home groups unless a regular sunday attender first. Also some of us aren't comfortible going to peoples homes. Why can't a group meet at the church too?
Some home groups are just as bad: block of standing & singing.
- location some churches i just can't go to because of location/distance.
- water fluoriudation.
- I simply am not able to get out any much esp on set day and set (early) time, esp on day when everythung else is closed too.
- not welcoming/friendly. (Though pastor also said my fault for not trying anyu one church for long enough.)
- "tongues".
- no choice for saturday not sunday except SDA chruches.
- i am bad soil: i struggle with the troubles/worries of the world (eg being single, etc).
- the bible does say will be a falling away.
- Jesus on outside. I stand at door and knock. People are on outside too.
- ahaba "love" value 13 = ehad "unity/union/united/one" value 13. Jesus always went on about Love and being One.
"in him all things hold together".
- its not (just) "money" but "Mammon".
- Ministry needs. Christians don't care/love/help. No one cares.
God/Jesus has many mouths, but few ears/eyes/hearts/bowels/hands/feet.
- chruch should be Body/corporation (not business/corporate), maybe should be like spaceship : 3 parts 1 pilot/command, 2 navigation/communication, 3 engines/power.
Why is it that no one would/will help me with things like getting unfluoridated spring water, no one would help except the pastor! Pastors shouldn't have to/can't do everything.
- No one cares. everyone is too busy with own lives/families/problems/jobs and has no time.
- Laodicea was centre of Asclepius god of medicine worship. Its always "oh go see a doctor / mental health services".
("Am I my brothers keeper" - Cain. We are all brothers according to 1 John.)
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows [includes lonely/alone/singles and people without families?] in their affliction, and to keep himself unspoted from the world." - James1:27.
- Treat others as if you/they are Jesus.
- modern christianity just preaches the negative side of bible (carry own cross, tribulation, "single is good", faith, ) not preach/practice the postives (healing/deliverance, bear one anothers burdens, love one another).
If christianity is all just about "good" suffering/tribulation and after die then why would i want to be christian? Where is the "Good news"?
eternal life is here and now not just after die.
love not just commandments.
marriage not just single.
comfort/consolation not just tribulation.
eternal life not just die self.
Jesus healing/works/miracles not just sermon/words/teaching.
bear one anothers burdens not just carry own cross.
the greatest of these is love not just faith.
reward not just punish.
follow not just forsake.
practice not just preach.
heart/bowels/eye/ear/hand/feet not just mouths
buildup not just pull down/criticise
- church sermons just preach same moralistic/legalistic/individualistic work/self/effort stuff the world/regime does (or itching ears).
"I require mercy not sacrifice" - bible.
- don't preach "revival". Look in mirror as someone said in post here already (real issue is each persons genuine relationship with God/Jesus). Care about the seats already filled.
- prayer (& war).
- Why are there people in wheelchairs, etc?
- evolution/"science"
everyone believes the "science/experts/academics/professionals" and disbelieves the "pseudo/religion/lay-amateur/fringe".
- church "cares" about issues like homosexuality but doesn't care about things like singles etc.
- regulations/laws: today any group etc has strict rules/laws/regulations they have to conform to (sort of like health and safety). Distrust/trust problems. I do understand that we have to be careful/wary, but it is also hard on both.
- the 1st love is the more/most important thing.
- other things on same day. This system cunningly has other things on same day. Real estates have open homes on same day and time as church.
- Church is body* of Jesus*/Christ (head*).
as above, so below.
- even Jesus said everyone left him "are you going to leave me too?"
Sean.
Trying to isolate the problem with the church has been made into such a huge debate, honestly I don't know why. The problem with the church is the same problem that has cause problems with God's elect through out history. In a word: Idolatry. Even the most devote follower of Christ has an area of life where something other than God hold's sway. For some its money and another its sex and another its pride and another its fame. The point is we all, myself included, have areas of our lives that we have yet to surrender to God. Worse is when we assemble outside of the four walls of a church building, especially where there is anonimity, we are at each others throats. Simply go through this forum board and you will see attack after attack on fellow believers.
One of the posters, I do not remember which, correctly pointed out that we as followers of Christ are to judge the church, believers, not the lost. The lost are for the Father to to judge. The question is, can we as believers judge rightly without being judgmental? What if our sole goal in judging was to strengthen the church for the work we are called to do and we did it in such way that we edify the judged instead of browbeating them with our judgments? We all no porn is a big issue in the world and in the church. We also know as followers of Christ that such lust is a sin. For someone that isn't vulnerable to sit in judgment over another, no matter how correct their judgment is, it is judgmental. Someone that doesn't suffer from addiction simply can not relate. What they can do, if they come across of brother or sister with this problem in put them in touch with a brother or sister that has overcome their addiction.
A perfect example is prison ministries. The most successful are those that have been incarcerated. They know exactly what the prisoner is going through. I am not saying that in every case you need to find someone else that has gone through it, Many sins are so universal we all have some degree of experience with it. During the process of judging the bible provides instruction how to do it step by step and consequences for the unrepentant if they choose to remain in their sin. This is another area where the church is failing. At least the mainstream church is. If a brother or sister reject repentance for sin they must be exclused from the fellowship of believers. The fellowship not instruction.
The Amish have a practice where when one breaks their covenant laws they are ostrisized. Their very presence is ignored until such time and true repentance is given. In the church I am part of, when a person is cast of of the fellowship the sermon, with notes. is mailed to them. We want them to continue to learn and receive instruction but we can not allow their willful sin to effect the body. In the Old Testament this was cutting someone off from Israel. Let's be honest, with ourselves and each other. The problem with the church while is varied all comes down to one thing: We are weak on sin. Corporately, as a whole, we are weak and no one respects weakness.
We need to follow ALL the instructions in the Word not just the easy or convenient ones.
One of the posters, I do not remember which, correctly pointed out that we as followers of Christ are to judge the church, believers, not the lost. The lost are for the Father to to judge. The question is, can we as believers judge rightly without being judgmental? What if our sole goal in judging was to strengthen the church for the work we are called to do and we did it in such way that we edify the judged instead of browbeating them with our judgments? We all no porn is a big issue in the world and in the church. We also know as followers of Christ that such lust is a sin. For someone that isn't vulnerable to sit in judgment over another, no matter how correct their judgment is, it is judgmental. Someone that doesn't suffer from addiction simply can not relate. What they can do, if they come across of brother or sister with this problem in put them in touch with a brother or sister that has overcome their addiction.
A perfect example is prison ministries. The most successful are those that have been incarcerated. They know exactly what the prisoner is going through. I am not saying that in every case you need to find someone else that has gone through it, Many sins are so universal we all have some degree of experience with it. During the process of judging the bible provides instruction how to do it step by step and consequences for the unrepentant if they choose to remain in their sin. This is another area where the church is failing. At least the mainstream church is. If a brother or sister reject repentance for sin they must be exclused from the fellowship of believers. The fellowship not instruction.
The Amish have a practice where when one breaks their covenant laws they are ostrisized. Their very presence is ignored until such time and true repentance is given. In the church I am part of, when a person is cast of of the fellowship the sermon, with notes. is mailed to them. We want them to continue to learn and receive instruction but we can not allow their willful sin to effect the body. In the Old Testament this was cutting someone off from Israel. Let's be honest, with ourselves and each other. The problem with the church while is varied all comes down to one thing: We are weak on sin. Corporately, as a whole, we are weak and no one respects weakness.
We need to follow ALL the instructions in the Word not just the easy or convenient ones.
JesusIsFaithful
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I believe judging in correcting one another in Christ's love, seeing the professing believers as saved and just astray is paramount as opposed to judging in condemning the professing believer as if he or she is not saved at all. Excommunication is a final resort punishment applied by the whole church in the hopes of leading those astray to repentance so that is done in Christ's love also.
As every believer is to be submissive to the Word of God, so is the church, otherwise, discipleship would hardly exists in the church and fellowship with workers of iniquity would not be really fellowship with the Father & the Son in worship or in fellowship with others.
Withdrawing from the church should only be based on when red tapes prevents the church coming together to discern and to reprove the works of darkness from their church's teachings,words, and practises. If prunings cannot be done because of side stepping bureaucrats or the church as a whole does not want to make waves and so make excuses for the iniquity within of the church or by a fellow church member like.. nobody's perfect...so no church is perfect...or you are not perfect either and so saying that was to just to gloss over iniquity, you may want to ask the Lord Jesus as your Good Shepherd, what to do next; but I am betting it is to withdraw, and even I needed His help to do a simple thing like that because it is hard to withdraw from a church you had grown up in for most of your life, but it can be done by His grace & by His help.
When apostasy is said to be abounding in the latter days when faith is hard to find, it should not be surprising that a church which means "called out" from the world will have believers called out from the church when the church is of the world, and not being submissive to the Word of God.
Yeah.. no church is perfect, but running that race is about looking to the author & finisher of our faith to be perfect; not ignoring the iniquity, and thus not running at all. And just because a church does prune to bear fruit, Jesus said that even fruit bearing disciples will be pruned to bear even more fruit. It is a learning and growing process when one is running that race by faith in the Son of God.
John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
The consequence for not abiding in Him & His words as kept by those that loved Him & His words in the KJV as His disciple is being left behind to face the coming fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Saved believers running that race by faith in Jesus Christ is how they live that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ as His disciples to be chosen for the Marriage Supper or get left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event when God judges His House first because Jesus taught excommunication, and if they do not correct the unrepentant or that the unrepentant refused correction but the church still did not issue the punishment of excommunication, He will excommunicate at the pre trib rapture event as Paul symbolizes what fellowship will be like at the Marriage Supper with no unrepentant believer there in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter even though he is still called a brother so as to not be treated as the enemy; 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Matthew 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you,......8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
So the job of the church is what? Showing Christ's love for one another in discipleship & not just fellowship.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
May we point every saved believer to Jesus Christ in trusting Him as their Good Shepherd in running that race.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
As every believer is to be submissive to the Word of God, so is the church, otherwise, discipleship would hardly exists in the church and fellowship with workers of iniquity would not be really fellowship with the Father & the Son in worship or in fellowship with others.
Withdrawing from the church should only be based on when red tapes prevents the church coming together to discern and to reprove the works of darkness from their church's teachings,words, and practises. If prunings cannot be done because of side stepping bureaucrats or the church as a whole does not want to make waves and so make excuses for the iniquity within of the church or by a fellow church member like.. nobody's perfect...so no church is perfect...or you are not perfect either and so saying that was to just to gloss over iniquity, you may want to ask the Lord Jesus as your Good Shepherd, what to do next; but I am betting it is to withdraw, and even I needed His help to do a simple thing like that because it is hard to withdraw from a church you had grown up in for most of your life, but it can be done by His grace & by His help.
When apostasy is said to be abounding in the latter days when faith is hard to find, it should not be surprising that a church which means "called out" from the world will have believers called out from the church when the church is of the world, and not being submissive to the Word of God.
Yeah.. no church is perfect, but running that race is about looking to the author & finisher of our faith to be perfect; not ignoring the iniquity, and thus not running at all. And just because a church does prune to bear fruit, Jesus said that even fruit bearing disciples will be pruned to bear even more fruit. It is a learning and growing process when one is running that race by faith in the Son of God.
John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
The consequence for not abiding in Him & His words as kept by those that loved Him & His words in the KJV as His disciple is being left behind to face the coming fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation.
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Saved believers running that race by faith in Jesus Christ is how they live that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ as His disciples to be chosen for the Marriage Supper or get left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event when God judges His House first because Jesus taught excommunication, and if they do not correct the unrepentant or that the unrepentant refused correction but the church still did not issue the punishment of excommunication, He will excommunicate at the pre trib rapture event as Paul symbolizes what fellowship will be like at the Marriage Supper with no unrepentant believer there in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter even though he is still called a brother so as to not be treated as the enemy; 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15.
John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Matthew 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you,......8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
So the job of the church is what? Showing Christ's love for one another in discipleship & not just fellowship.
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
May we point every saved believer to Jesus Christ in trusting Him as their Good Shepherd in running that race.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Precisely what does fluoride have to do with scripture or the faith?
Can someone explain this?
Can someone explain this?
Born_Again
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I look at the differences in Churches now as compared to, say, 20 years ago. I come from a conservative protestant upbringing. I still cant get into these churches that have a full out rock band with lights and sounds to spread the message. I am perfectly content with a standard sermon. Its in the message, not the presentation. I don't need a hipster kid in torn jeans rocking me out to Jesus to know His word is alive. I've got the scripture to tell me that.
My church has two services, one is a standard service with a choir and so forth. Then they have a "praise and worship" service. I don't really get that as I praise Him and worship him without an electric guitar and "hipster dude". And I noticed that the older and more traditional folks have switched to the first service and numbers of the second service are starting to dwindle. I don't really blame the pastor as I know him and he is a good man and very strong in faith. I think there is an unreasonable expectation put on the church to impress people to get them to follow Christ.
I certainly do think there are some organizations that have misappropriated church funds and resources and caused discontent in their own people. They have God to answer to on that. But it is not true of all churches. The congregation can be just as much to blame.
My church has two services, one is a standard service with a choir and so forth. Then they have a "praise and worship" service. I don't really get that as I praise Him and worship him without an electric guitar and "hipster dude". And I noticed that the older and more traditional folks have switched to the first service and numbers of the second service are starting to dwindle. I don't really blame the pastor as I know him and he is a good man and very strong in faith. I think there is an unreasonable expectation put on the church to impress people to get them to follow Christ.
I certainly do think there are some organizations that have misappropriated church funds and resources and caused discontent in their own people. They have God to answer to on that. But it is not true of all churches. The congregation can be just as much to blame.
JesusIsFaithful
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How many churches today have a heirarchy to serve as a ruling head over a denomenational church?
Can anyone prove that this is not the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which God hates?
And is it not by having an untouchable overhead that no one elects into office that brings about the deeds of the Nicolaitanes ( sexual immorality ) ?
This is why God hates that doctrine because the Head of every believer is the same as the Head for every local assemply; the Word of God is Whom we are to be submissive to; not some distant and untouchable heirarchy that no one can reprove when they go wrong..
Can anyone prove that this is not the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which God hates?
And is it not by having an untouchable overhead that no one elects into office that brings about the deeds of the Nicolaitanes ( sexual immorality ) ?
This is why God hates that doctrine because the Head of every believer is the same as the Head for every local assemply; the Word of God is Whom we are to be submissive to; not some distant and untouchable heirarchy that no one can reprove when they go wrong..
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