(kriss;29876)
Well then why dont you guys explain to me why God said the punishment was death for murder he knew his own laws
Paul tells us the purpose of the law. It was a teacher and a tool. The law had to teach us what sin was. Sins need punishment because God is righteous and holy. The punishment was death because it is a fitting punishment for killing someone, especially if you are perfect as God is. Society was different then. There were no maximum security prisons, etc. Death was a reality in these lawless times. It was something that people had to grapple with daily. It was something that they could understand as being fair and reasonable. When God speaks to the people, he uses language which we will understand. He speaks to us differently at different times because we and not him are being educated. We no longer believe in polygamy or slavery, now.Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, raised the bar. He changed the way we were to do things. He could do this because he was God. He wanted to show us a better way. This does not mean that the law was wrong, but just as Paul said, it had served its purpose which was to educate us.Jesus said we are to turn the other cheek, forgive wrongs, and pray for our enemies. He was able to give this message, because we were ready to hear it. We were ready to make the changes that God wants for us (at least some of us are ready to hear it).Gentiles were never Jews and we never had to live according to the Jewish law. We came to Christ directly and the apostles in their wisdom said that we did not need to be yoked to the law. Paul repeats this theme repeatedly. The whole book of Hebrews is devoted to it as is Paul's letter to the Galatians. We are to live not by the law, but by the Holy Spirit.God has many attributes to his character. Justice requires punishment. Jesus took our punishment for us. He fulfilled the requirements of the law once and for all time. The writer of Hebrews calls the law obsolete (Hebrews 8: 13). Paul says that we cannot live by the Spirit and by the Law. We have to make a choice. It has been transcended and should not even come into the discussion.God also has the character attributes of love, mercy, grace and forgiveness. These are all parts of Jesus' message for us. These are the things that he wants us to live up to. God wants to display his mercy, but if we do not ask for it, then his righteousness and justice attributes will rule. A good example of this is shown in Ezekiel 22: 30 - 31. God is looking for an opportunity to show his mercy, but no one appeals to him for it.Jesus gives us the opportunity to be different and to make a difference. He wants us to show the rest of the world a better way. He has a heart for people and he wants us to have the same heart for others.That means no death penalty. To quote the Law to support the death penalty is a step backwards. It is to place us under the penalty of the Law once again as if Jesus was never crucified and resurrected. We shame him and imperil ourselves if we do this.Galatians 3: 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.Blessings,Dunamite
Well then why dont you guys explain to me why God said the punishment was death for murder he knew his own laws
Paul tells us the purpose of the law. It was a teacher and a tool. The law had to teach us what sin was. Sins need punishment because God is righteous and holy. The punishment was death because it is a fitting punishment for killing someone, especially if you are perfect as God is. Society was different then. There were no maximum security prisons, etc. Death was a reality in these lawless times. It was something that people had to grapple with daily. It was something that they could understand as being fair and reasonable. When God speaks to the people, he uses language which we will understand. He speaks to us differently at different times because we and not him are being educated. We no longer believe in polygamy or slavery, now.Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, raised the bar. He changed the way we were to do things. He could do this because he was God. He wanted to show us a better way. This does not mean that the law was wrong, but just as Paul said, it had served its purpose which was to educate us.Jesus said we are to turn the other cheek, forgive wrongs, and pray for our enemies. He was able to give this message, because we were ready to hear it. We were ready to make the changes that God wants for us (at least some of us are ready to hear it).Gentiles were never Jews and we never had to live according to the Jewish law. We came to Christ directly and the apostles in their wisdom said that we did not need to be yoked to the law. Paul repeats this theme repeatedly. The whole book of Hebrews is devoted to it as is Paul's letter to the Galatians. We are to live not by the law, but by the Holy Spirit.God has many attributes to his character. Justice requires punishment. Jesus took our punishment for us. He fulfilled the requirements of the law once and for all time. The writer of Hebrews calls the law obsolete (Hebrews 8: 13). Paul says that we cannot live by the Spirit and by the Law. We have to make a choice. It has been transcended and should not even come into the discussion.God also has the character attributes of love, mercy, grace and forgiveness. These are all parts of Jesus' message for us. These are the things that he wants us to live up to. God wants to display his mercy, but if we do not ask for it, then his righteousness and justice attributes will rule. A good example of this is shown in Ezekiel 22: 30 - 31. God is looking for an opportunity to show his mercy, but no one appeals to him for it.Jesus gives us the opportunity to be different and to make a difference. He wants us to show the rest of the world a better way. He has a heart for people and he wants us to have the same heart for others.That means no death penalty. To quote the Law to support the death penalty is a step backwards. It is to place us under the penalty of the Law once again as if Jesus was never crucified and resurrected. We shame him and imperil ourselves if we do this.Galatians 3: 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.Blessings,Dunamite
eut 19:1-5 1 When the LORD thy God hath cut off the nations, whose land the LORD thy God giveth thee, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their cities, and in their houses; 2 Thou shalt separate three cities for thee in the midst of thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it. 3 Thou shalt prepare thee a way, and divide the coasts of thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee to inherit, into three parts, that every slayer may flee thither. 4 And this is the case of the slayer, which shall flee thither, that he may live: Whoso killeth his neighbour ignorantly, whom he hated not in time past;5 As when a man goeth into the wood with his neighbour to hew wood, and his hand fetcheth a stroke with the axe to cut down the tree, and the head slippeth from the helve, and lighteth upon his neighbour, that he die; he shall flee unto one of those cities, and live: In verse 6 below, " the avenger of the blood" is mentioned. This is a Hebraism (figure of speech) meaning that the next closest family member of the deceased man, who's duty, right and responsibility it was to put to death the murderer of their Kinfolk.Deut 19: 66 Lest the avenger of the blood pursue the slayer, while his heart is hot, and overtake him, because the way is long, and slay him; whereas he was not worthy of death, inasmuch as he hated him not in time past. The reason that God had them set aside "cities of refuge" is because if someone accidentally killed a man and did it at unawares with no malice in his heart or premeditation, he should move to a different location so that the family members of the deceased man did not have to look upon the killer of their loved one every day. Because their grief might cause them to murder the man who accidentally killed their relative. This would put them in jeopardy of being judged by God for murder. Because God said that an unintentional killer should not be put to death, but that he should live. Reading on in verses 7 through 12 below, still in this 19th chapter of Deuteronomy. In verse 11, we see the act of murder described, and see how God distinguishes criminal premeditated murder from involuntary or accidental manslaughter. Read verse 11, and we see the word SMITE: (Hebrew word # 5221). It states in the end of verse 11 and into the beginning of verse 12; that if a murderer a criminal homicide offender tries to flee into one of the cities of refuge, that the community is to retrieve him and deliver him into the hands of the avenger of the blood, so that he may DIE ( Hebrew word # 4191 ). The community is to help the avenger of the blood to accomplish the death of a murderer: Deut 19:7-12 7 Wherefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt separate three cities for thee. 8 And if the LORD thy God enlarge thy coast, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, and give thee all the land which he promised to give unto thy fathers; 9 If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three: 10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee. 11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities: 12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. This is comparable to our modern day system of the police department and the judicial system. In our society we do not let the family members carry out the executions, we have the State authorities acting as the "avenger of the blood". In verse 13 below, God himself tells us not to pity the execution of a murderer. I personally wonder why certain so-called religious people protest the executions of murderers when Gods law clearly calls for it. God states that when you execute murderers, these things stop happening amongst you [Duet 19:20], by way of the example that it sets to others who would have no respect for life. By letting murderers live and prolonging their sentences, it causes more people to go out and commit crimes, and even kill, because they never really see the consequences of their actions or they are allowed back out to prey upon society. So in a bizarre twist of fate; the weak kneed, spiritually ungrounded, Biblically illiterate preachers of today are actually causing more crimes to be committed and more people end up being molested, raped and murdered. These pacifists are thus helping the work of satan himself. Not all Preachers are like this mind you, but I speak of the "candle vigil against capitol punishment" Ministers and their misguided so-called religious disciples, who follow them, and their perversion of Almighty God's Doctrine that was laid out for us in the Holy Scriptures. Perhaps if people understood that Capitol punishment is not meant by God to be a tool of "pay-back" by a vengeful society upon a guilty murderer, but rather God's way of setting acceptable rules of conduct in a community. And a rule not enforced is a rule not followed. Also, God demands that a murderer is executed and sent to Him because He has much to say to this one who took a life and all the offspring that were to come through that victim. Not to mention the pain and suffering that this act caused those who are left behind, many of them blaming God for the loss. Please tell me that you are not one who would have them released, only to kill again. I think a lot of the liberal pacifist's among the Christians who are against killing killers are missing an important point. Those murder victim's may have not yet have found their way to Christ. For many don't become "saved" until a later age. That adds a whole other dimension to the ending of the victim's life prematurely, does it not? Or don't you care. All that some so-called "Christians" seem to think about is the fate of the murderer. It's like they feel that the victim is already dead, so the "good Christian" has to try to save the one left, the murderer. So they fight the execution, and 10-20 years later the murderer gets out on good behavior, overcrowding, for being a "changed man," or for being sorry and does it again. I'm sure God would be so proud of the Christian that took it upon himself to contradict His law, as God has to try to comfort another family of yet another victim who will undoubtedly be blaming Him for allowing it to happen. If things were done God's way, a lot of these things would cease to happen. That's what God says, what does you preacher/teacher say? Understand that satan manipulates emotions in many who do not even know it. They will know someday. Deut 19:20-21 20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you. 21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (KJV) If they don't have the stomach for "the consequences of crime," then they would much better spend their time and prayers on the victims of these crimes. They sure seem to have down real good the stomach for the suffering of the innocent victims! What a twisted reality some have allowed the Twentieth Century Church to become! But that's no wonder, throughout Biblical history, whenever men working for God have walked around wanting to be reverenced; God's truth has always suffered. And God also always knocked them down to size. Perhaps these "Reverends" feel that they have a better way than God does. Oh The arrogance of man to assume that they know better than Almighty God. Or maybe it's just their ignorance to the scriptures; in which case they could benefit from deeper Bible Study. Be careful whom you entrust your very soul to, for not everyone standing at the Pulpit is working for God! But now back to the next verse where God tells us not to pity the execution of a murderer. Makes you kind of wonder who the "candle vigil against capitol punishment Ministers" are working for, it sure isn't for God. For if they worked for God they would teach His word, not theirs!Deut 19:13 13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee. (KJV) Now lets go to the book of Numbers, 35th chapter below. This gives us a clear distinction between killing someone at unawares and murdering them (criminal homicide). In verse 11, it speaks of the cities of refuge, that we learned about in the book of Deuteronomy. And through verse 15, it tells of the involuntary manslayer, and that he is not to be put to death but must move away to a city of refuge. In verse 16, it speaks of the murderer and that the murderer is to be put to death - executed:Num 35:11-16 11 Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares. 12 And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment. 13 And of these cities which ye shall give six cities shall ye have for refuge.14 Ye shall give three cities on this side Jordan, and three cities shall ye give in the land of Canaan, which shall be cities of refuge. 15 These six cities shall be a refuge, both for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither. 16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. Now in verse 19 of this 35th Chapter of Numbers, we see two of our words. It is very clearly stated that the avenger of the blood shall SLAY (Hebrew word #4191) the MURDERER (Hebrew word #7523). Therefore, verse 19 shows with great clarity, that there is a big difference between SLAY and MURDERER. It is also quite apparent that God is an advocate for capitol punishment:Num 35:17-1917 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. 18 Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. 19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him. (KJV) Now I know that right about now there will be some from the watered down Churches of today that will tell you that this is "Old Testament law and that it doesn't apply today." Oh ?!? Really ?!? Lets see what Jesus Christ said about this. I mean, I follow Christ's instructions, not the false teachers/preachers, how about you, whom will you receive your instruction from? In the New Testament book of Matthew [Mt 5:17+18]:Matt 5:17-18 (Jesus speaking) 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (KJV) Jesus seems pretty emphatic to me! By the way, regarding the above word "JOT"; In the ancient Hebrew language, there are no vowels. To put it in simple terms, to get the vowel sound of the letter, they put a tiny mark by the letter. For the sake of an example (characters not accurate): [.] is an A sound, [..] is an E sound, and so forth. So what Jesus is saying in this is that he changes not even the sound of one letter of one sentence of the law. (some say that it is a 'Yod' which is the smallest Hebrew letter. But you get the point). How about a second witness from Jesus, and you always want at least two witnesses to any scripture to be sure you are getting the true meanings of the scripture. Still in the New Testament, let's go to the book of Luke, [Lk 16:17]:Luke 16:17 (Jesus speaking) 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. (KJV) And I would have to say that Jesus was also very clear here that Gods law stands until the end of the Heaven and the earth. The "TITTLE" spoken of, to put it in very simple terms, is a small ornament or mark drawn above a letter in the manuscripts. These "Tittles" were placed amongst the Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts in a very few but specific places. See The Companion Bible appendix #93. Figuratively, it means not to change one particle of the law.
