Deconstruction Part 2: Into Apostolicity

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Lizbeth

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Can you give me the Scripture references re giving believers MORE spiritual dunamis/kratos and "enlarges their spiritual gifts?"
Looks like you are just philosophizing-like "a kiss from heaven"

What MORE do you want that you don't already have?

Believers , or some, are lazy by nature, carnal, hence the reason they fire on two pistons instead of four.
The Bible will never be a living Book to us until we are convinced that God is articulate in His universe. To jump from a dead, impersonal world to a dogmatic Bible is too much for most people. They may admit that they should accept the Bible as the Word of God, and they may try to think of it as such, but they find it impossible to believe that the words there on the page are actually for them. A man may say, “These words are addressed to me,” and yet in his heart not feel and know that they are. He is the victim of a divided psychology. He tries to think of God as mute everywhere else and vocal only in a book.

I believe that much of our religious unbelief is due to a wrong conception of and a wrong feeling for the Scriptures of Truth. A silent God suddenly began to speak in a book and when the book was finished lapsed back into silence again forever. Now we read the book as the record of what God said when He was for a brief time in a speaking mood. With notions like that in our heads how can we believe? The facts are that God is not silent, has never been silent. It is the nature of God to speak. The second Person of the Holy Trinity is called the Word. The Bible is the inevitable outcome of God’s continuous speech. It is the infallible declaration of His mind for us put into our familiar human words.

I think a new world will arise out of the religious mists when we approach our Bible with the idea that it is not only a book which was once spoken, but a book which is now speaking
. The prophets habitually said, “Thus saith the Lord.” They meant their hearers to understand that God’s speaking is in the continuous present. We may use the past tense properly to indicate that at a certain time a certain word of God was spoken, but a word of God once spoken continues to be spoken, as a child once born continues to be alive, or a world once created continues to exist. And those are but imperfect illustrations, for children die and worlds burn out, but the Word of our God endureth forever.

If you would follow on to know the Lord, come at once to the open Bible expecting it to speak to you. Do not come with the notion that it is a thing which you may push around at your convenience. It is more than a thing; it is a voice, a word, the very Word of the living God.
A W Tozer


No New Revelation!
John Calvin



"For in [Christ] 'all treasures of knowledge and wisdom are hid' (Col. 2:3) with such great abundance and richness that either to hope for or to seek any new addition to these treasures is truly to arouse God's wrath and provoke him against us. It is for us to hunger for, seek, look to, learn, and study Christ alone, until that great day dawns when the Lord will fully manifest the glory of his Kingdom (cf. I Cor. 15:24) and will show himself for us to see him as he is (I John 3:2). And for this reason this age of ours is designated in the Scriptures as 'the last hour' (I John 2:18), the 'last days' (Heb. 1:2), the 'last times' (I Peter 1:20), that no one should delude himself with a vain expectation of some new doctrine or revelation. 'For at many times and in many ways the Heavenly Father formerly spoke through the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken in his beloved Son' (Heb. 1:1-2), who alone can reveal the Father (Luke 10:22); and he has indeed manifested the Father fully, as far as we require, while we now see him in a mirror (I Cor. 13:12)" (Institutes 4.18.20).

"This, however, remains certain: the perfect doctrine he has brought has made an end to all prophecies. All those, then, who, not content with the gospel, patch it with something extraneous to it, detract from Christ's authority. The Voice that thundered from heaven, 'This is my beloved Son; ... hear him' (Matt. 17:5; cf. Matt. 3:17), exalted him by a singular privilege beyond the rank of all others. Then this anointing was diffused from the Head to the members, as Joel had foretold: 'Your sons shall prophesy and your daughters ... shall see visions,' etc. (Joel 2:28). But when Paul says that He was given to us as our wisdom (I Cor. 1:30), and in another place, 'In him are hid all the treasures of knowledge and understanding' (Col. 2:3), he has a slightly different meaning. That is, outside Christ there is nothing worth knowing, and all who by faith perceive what he is like have grasped the whole immensity of heavenly benefits. For this reason, Paul writes in another passage: 'I decided to know nothing precious ... except Jesus Christ and him crucified' (I Cor. 2:2). This is very true, because it is not lawful to go beyond the simplicity of the gospel And the prophetic dignity in Christ leads us to know that in the sum of doctrine as he has given it to us all parts of perfect wisdom are contained" (Institutes 2.15.2).

"And when he speaks of the last times, he intimates that there is no longer any reason to expect any new revelation; for it was not a word in part that Christ brought, but the final conclusion. It is in this sense that the Apostles take ' the last times' and 'the last days.' And Paul means the same when he says, 'Upon whom the ends of the world are come' (I Cor. 10:11). If God then has spoken now for the last time, it is right to advance thus far; so also when you come to Christ, you ought not to go farther: and these two things it is very needful for us to know. For it was a great hindrance to the Jews that they did not consider that God had deferred a fuller revelation to another time; hence, being satisfied with their own Law, they did not hasten forward to the goal. But since Christ has appeared, an opposite evil began to prevail in the world; for men wished to advance beyond Christ. What else indeed is the whole system of Popery but the overleaping of the boundary which the Apostle has fixed? As, then, the Spirit of God in this passage invites all to come as far as Christ, so he forbids them to go beyond the last time which he mentions. In short, the limit of our wisdom is made here to be the Gospel" (Comm. on Heb. 1:1).
That the Lord God Almighty who fills the heavens would bend down and deign to speak to such as I, yes, it sometimes speaks to me of His love.

Remember after His resurrection Jesus breathed on His disciples and said receive ye the Holy Spirit. But still they needed to be filled with the Spirit after Jesus ascended to heaven and it was poured out.
 
J

Johann

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You don't seem to read my posts very carefully, unless my wording is at fault.....you often misunderstand.....never said you were attention-seeking. I'm talking about the devil and false prophets/ministers with all their grandstanding of things of God, which discredits the true. And I wasn't talking about this video...don't have time to watch all the videos, just reading some of the written commentary.
You and I have all the time in the world and we are commanded to redeem the time-If you don't want to give the videos a listen, which might make you think twice, that's on you, not my problem and you have a problem with the "commentary"-refute it if you can @Lizbeth.

There's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension that I can assure you, remember, you said I might not have the Holy Spirit, strong words from a person claiming to have discernment. Even I can discern IF the person I'm dealing with online is a fake or just here to "fill the space"-know what I mean?
Was it the "voice" that made you say that? Getting a bit hot under the color?

Thanks
J.
 

Lizbeth

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If I didn't received the Holy Spirit I don't belong to Christ Jesus-hence I can discern you don't have any discernment. Your feathers are ruffled because I dare go against the grain, remaining in the revealed word of God, the God-breathed written Scriptures.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (ESV)
"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Context: In Ephesians, Paul writes to the church in Ephesus about the blessings believers have received in Christ. He emphasizes that upon hearing the gospel and believing in Jesus Christ, believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit. This sealing denotes the Holy Spirit's indwelling presence in the life of a believer, marking them as belonging to God and guaranteeing their future inheritance in Him.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (ESV)
"And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

Context: In this passage, Paul is expressing assurance to the Corinthians about their standing in Christ. He affirms that God has sealed believers and given them the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their salvation and inheritance in Him.

Explanation:
In both passages, the sealing with the Holy Spirit occurs when a person hears the word of truth (the gospel) and responds in faith by believing in Jesus Christ. This act of faith triggers the sealing, where the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. The Holy Spirit's presence serves as a guarantee or down payment of the future eternal inheritance that believers will receive in full when Christ returns.

God bless.
J.
We all receive the Holy Spirit when we come to faith......but then there is still the infilling of the Spirit offered to us.

I'm not ruffled about this at all, just getting bored with the conversation maybe.....but if I may observe you often sound angry or resentful, in writing at least.
 
J

Johann

Guest
It's always so refreshing when someone can use and not misuse this passage! Yay Johann!!

Much love!
There's always room for improvement brother @marks and you may add what I am missing-I won't be offended, knowing you have my back and my fellow pilgrim in this foreign world with it's own god and onward to the Celestial City.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.
 
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marks

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There's always room for improvement brother @marks and you may add what I am missing-I won't be offended, knowing you have my back and my fellow pilgrim in this foreign world with it's own god and onward to the Celestial City.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.
Ditto!!

Much love!
 
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J

Johann

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We all receive the Holy Spirit when we come to faith......but then there is still the infilling of the Spirit offered to us.

I'm not ruffled about this at all, just getting bored with the conversation maybe.....but if I may observe you often sound angry or resentful, in writing at least.
I am an Afrikaaner, a Dutchman-so your discernment is wrong yet again and I'm glad you are getting bored-this has nothing to do with me being angry or resentful-passion for the cause of Jesus Christ and erroneous teachings can be misconstrued with anger.

Shalom
J.
 

Lizbeth

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You and I have all the time in the world and we are commanded to redeem the time-If you don't want to give the videos a listen, which might make you think twice, that's on you, not my problem and you have a problem with the "commentary"-refute it if you can @Lizbeth.

There's nothing wrong with my reading comprehension that I can assure you, remember, you said I might not have the Holy Spirit, strong words from a person claiming to have discernment. Even I can discern IF the person I'm dealing with online is a fake or just here to "fill the space"-know what I mean?
Was it the "voice" that made you say that? Getting a bit hot under the color?

Thanks
J.
If you aren't reading me wrong then you are twisting what I'm saying. Which is not honest.

No, my temperature is just fine, but I do wonder sometimes how yours is my friend. I don't have time to listen to videos these days mostly, unless I feel compelled or led to do so. Sometimes I'll watch something just a few minutes in.

I did refute the commentary on your other thread.....I said it's not for me to tell the Lord God Almighty what He can or can't do and when/where/how. That was my indirect way of saying it's not for you or any commenters either. Struck me as arrogant and prideful in places to be frank.
 
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J

Johann

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If you aren't reading me wrong then you are twisting what I'm saying. Which is not honest.

No, my temperature is just fine, but I do wonder sometimes how yours is my friend. I don't have time to listen to videos these days mostly, unless I feel compelled or led to do so. Sometimes I'll watch something just a few minutes in.

I did refute the commentary on your other thread.....I said it's not for me to tell the Lord God Almighty what He can or can't do and when/where/how. That was my indirect way of saying it's not for you or any commenters either. Struck me as arrogant and prideful in places to be frank.
"I'm guessing you have not received the Holy Spirit yet since ye believed because you are cessationist....?"

And no, you haven't refuted anything Scripturally @Lizbeth and my temperature is just fine.
The just shall live by faith-not signs and wonders or anything "else"
I am speaking truth, so if I come across as arrogant or prideful you need to sit down and ask yourself some serious questions-I am still learning and so are you-right?

And I did say I don't put the Lord Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit and our Abba in a "box" now did I? If God can "fit into my 3 pound brain" He is not worthy to be worshiped.
JOHANN
 

Lizbeth

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I am an Afrikaaner, a Dutchman-so your discernment is wrong yet again and I'm glad you are getting bored-this has nothing to do with me being angry or resentful-passion for the cause of Jesus Christ and erroneous teachings can be misconstrued with anger.

Shalom
J.
I don't know what being an Afrikaaner has to do with this....?...unless it's some sort of excuse for your tone of voice? "Passion for the cause" is just how you are justifying your unpleasant manner. I suspect a few people here would agree with my discernment brother.

Not that I'm judging you, I only hope for your good, and it might be that you need to let the Lord in to deal with some issues. If you ask for bread He will not give you a stone, if you ask for a fish He will not give you a snake...how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to His children who ask Him. Why did Jesus say that? Obviously because He knew some would, for whatever reasons, have difficulty trusting Him in that area.
 
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Ritajanice

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@Lizbeth , you do know there is an ignore option don’t you?

It’s a wonderful tool ,against those who try and upset your spirit, some just want to troll I’m afraid...imo.
 

Lizbeth

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"I'm guessing you have not received the Holy Spirit yet since ye believed because you are cessationist....?"
Yes I meant that in the same way I understand the apostle meant it when he asked them.....asking them whether they had been filled with the Holy Spirit. But why should that make you so mad anyhow?

You be blessed, I have to go out.
 
J

Johann

Guest
He will not give you a stone, if you ask for a fish He will not give you a snake...how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to His children who ask Him. Why did Jesus say that? Obviously because He knew some would, for whatever reasons, have difficulty trusting Him in that area.

Nothing to do with having difficulty in trusting Him in any area-and now you are boring me-no offense.

Context (Luke 11:5-13):
In Luke 11, Jesus teaches his disciples about prayer, using the analogy of a persistent friend who asks for bread at midnight. Here’s the specific passage that includes the verses in question:

Luke 11:9-13 (ESV):


9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Meaning and Interpretation:

Context of Asking and Receiving: Jesus begins by encouraging his disciples to persist in prayer, promising that God will answer their prayers (verses 9-10). He uses the analogy of earthly fathers who, despite their imperfections, give good gifts to their children when asked (verses 11-12).

Comparison with Good Gifts: Jesus contrasts the nature of earthly fathers, who despite their flaws, give good and appropriate gifts to their children (fish instead of a snake, egg instead of a scorpion), with the heavenly Father who gives even better gifts to His children.

Promise of the Holy Spirit: Jesus emphasizes that if earthly fathers, who are flawed, give good gifts to their children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. This promise underscores the accessibility and willingness of God to grant the Holy Spirit to believers who seek Him in prayer.

1st Century Meaning:
Cultural Context: In the 1st century Jewish culture, fathers were expected to provide for and protect their families. The idea of a father giving good gifts to his children would have resonated deeply with Jesus' audience.

Symbolism of Gifts: The examples of a fish, a snake, an egg, and a scorpion are not just literal but carry symbolic meaning. They illustrate the principle that a good father provides what is beneficial and nourishing, not harmful.


Theological Implication: By promising the Holy Spirit as a gift from the Father, Jesus highlights the centrality of the Holy Spirit in the life of believers. In the 1st century context, the Holy Spirit was understood as the empowering presence of God, equipping believers for ministry and enabling them to live in accordance with God's will.

In summary, Jesus' teaching in Luke 11:11-13 encourages persistence in prayer and highlights the Father's willingness to give the Holy Spirit—a precious and empowering gift—to His children who ask. This promise reflects God's loving provision and the believers' dependence on the Spirit for spiritual growth, guidance, and empowerment.

J.
 
J

Johann

Guest
@Lizbeth , you do know there is an ignore option don’t you?

It’s a wonderful tool ,against those who try and upset your spirit, some just want to troll I’m afraid...imo.
The one trolling here is you I'm afraid and I wonder if I can put YOU on ignore since you are not even aware the gospel is the dunamis of God UNTO salvation to everyone that believes.
 
J

Johann

Guest
Yes I meant that in the same way I understand the apostle meant it when he asked them.....asking them whether they had been filled with the Holy Spirit. But why should that make you so mad anyhow?

You be blessed, I have to go out.
Eph 1:13 And καὶ in ἐν [Him] ᾧ you ὑμεῖς, were sealed ἐσφραγίσθητε with τῷ the τῷ - τῆς promised ἐπαγγελίας Holy Ἁγίῳ, Spirit Πνεύματι - ἐν - , ᾧ having heard ἀκούσαντες and καὶ believed πιστεύσαντες the τὸν word λόγον - τῆς of truth, ἀληθείας, the τὸ gospel εὐαγγέλιον of τῆς your ὑμῶν, salvation. σωτηρίας
Eph 1:14 [The Spirit] ὅ* is ἐστιν [the] pledge ἀρραβὼν of our ἡμῶν, - τῆς inheritance κληρονομίας until εἰς [the] redemption ἀπολύτρωσιν of those [who are] τῆς [God’s] possession, περιποιήσεως, to εἰς [the] praise ἔπαινον of τῆς His αὐτοῦ. glory. δόξης

Maybe the first time you've read this.
 

Hepzibah

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@Johann

If you want me to hear you, don't keep posting videos without a precis. Thanks.
 
J

Johann

Guest
@Johann

If you want me to hear you, don't keep posting videos without a precis. Thanks.
Are you aware how a debate works-I give you my sources and links for you to refute, biblically, with Scriptures and other sources-and you give me yours, for me to do the same.
The reason I don't give the precis is that I'm limited to a certain amount of characters.

Go ahead-I will hear you out.
 

Hepzibah

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@Johann

I guess it is okay if you have all day and nothing else to do. I don't.

So you will watch videos from ex-Evangelicals which show that there is no ante-Nicene deterministic theology apart from that of gnostics? I will keep it in mind. Try David Bercot Anabaptist, ex JW ex Evangelical.
 
J

Johann

Guest
@Johann

I guess it is okay if you have all day and nothing else to do. I don't.

So you will watch videos from ex-Evangelicals which show that there is no ante-Nicene deterministic theology apart from that of gnostics? I will keep it in mind. Try David Bercot Anabaptist, ex JW ex Evangelical.
I know what, and what not to watch and I said-go ahead, I have all the time.
 

Lizbeth

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Nothing to do with having difficulty in trusting Him in any area-and now you are boring me-no offense.

Context (Luke 11:5-13):
In Luke 11, Jesus teaches his disciples about prayer, using the analogy of a persistent friend who asks for bread at midnight. Here’s the specific passage that includes the verses in question:

Luke 11:9-13 (ESV):


9 And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Meaning and Interpretation:

Context of Asking and Receiving: Jesus begins by encouraging his disciples to persist in prayer, promising that God will answer their prayers (verses 9-10). He uses the analogy of earthly fathers who, despite their imperfections, give good gifts to their children when asked (verses 11-12).

Comparison with Good Gifts: Jesus contrasts the nature of earthly fathers, who despite their flaws, give good and appropriate gifts to their children (fish instead of a snake, egg instead of a scorpion), with the heavenly Father who gives even better gifts to His children.

Promise of the Holy Spirit: Jesus emphasizes that if earthly fathers, who are flawed, give good gifts to their children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him. This promise underscores the accessibility and willingness of God to grant the Holy Spirit to believers who seek Him in prayer.

1st Century Meaning:
Cultural Context: In the 1st century Jewish culture, fathers were expected to provide for and protect their families. The idea of a father giving good gifts to his children would have resonated deeply with Jesus' audience.

Symbolism of Gifts: The examples of a fish, a snake, an egg, and a scorpion are not just literal but carry symbolic meaning. They illustrate the principle that a good father provides what is beneficial and nourishing, not harmful.


Theological Implication: By promising the Holy Spirit as a gift from the Father, Jesus highlights the centrality of the Holy Spirit in the life of believers. In the 1st century context, the Holy Spirit was understood as the empowering presence of God, equipping believers for ministry and enabling them to live in accordance with God's will.

In summary, Jesus' teaching in Luke 11:11-13 encourages persistence in prayer and highlights the Father's willingness to give the Holy Spirit—a precious and empowering gift—to His children who ask. This promise reflects God's loving provision and the believers' dependence on the Spirit for spiritual growth, guidance, and empowerment.

J.
So have you then?...been filled with the Holy Spirit in like manner as on the day of Pentecost?
 

marks

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passion for the cause of Jesus Christ and erroneous teachings can be misconstrued with anger.
Even just a certain personal intensity can make others uneasy. I have to watch that myself.

Much love!
 
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