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HammerStone

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Over the past six months or so, we have made a number of changes to the default Bible version/translation here at Christianity Board. We know that this is a touchy subject among many and we are not here to declare our version choice the best or necessarily better than others. In fact, each translation is truly a compromise because they all have their issues and quarks.

The reason that we settled upon the New International Version (NIV) is related to the clarity and relative accuracy of the translation. I personally consulted a number of resources and people across denominations (Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) to look not only at the translations themselves, but also at the basis, goals and outcomes of the translation process. What I discovered is that translation is a mix of art and science, and that it is certainly not an exact science. We simply must look at what we have, use a little logic and common sense, and trust that if God preserved the Bible in the first place, he would preserve an acceptable translation (or translations) of it to this very day. I personally believe that He accomplishes this with most translations on the market.

The NIV offers the perspicuity (clarity) that we Protestants accept and expect with God's Holy Scripture. The NIV uses modern language, but it does retain a good portion of some key phrases that are not exactly modern in truth to Scripture. The latest revision, the NIV 2011, does offer updates to the English language that are confirmed by my own academic background in English and my limited background in linguistics. We do acknowledge that the NIV falls a little short in the lack of traditional Biblical vocabulary (propitiation, et al.), yet we also understand these terms must be theologically defined for many who have not grown up with these terms anyway.

In regards to gender concerns, the NIV seeks to include women yet not change key passages where gender roles are defined. For example, I Timothy 2:12 is actually translated the same way that John Calvin translated the controversial passage in his translation. All language for God retains its masculinity, but women are rightfully included in the Bible with the shift to "brothers and sisters" where the Bible indicates both sexes, as well as the shift to the third person singular they.

The NIV is most often called a mediating translation or sometimes a dynamic equivalence translation. The truth is that the NIV falls virtually at the absolute center of being a literal or dynamic translation, meaning that it mixes word-for-word and thought-for-thought translation because the exact literal rendering of a passage would be unintelligible in English. This retains the figurative language (and often ambiguity) of the Bible, but also makes it accessible to modern readers just as the common Greek of the New Testament would have been accessible to readers of that era.

We also have confidence in the NIV and the translation committee (known as Biblica) for the endurance of the translation. It's position at the top of the charts for Bibles means that it's the closest thing to a universal translation of the Bible that we will get.

To wrap my thoughts up, we selected the NIV from the likes of the NKJV, ESV, HCSB, NET, NRSV, NASB, and NLT. As you can see, a number of translations were considered, and we briefly used the HCSB after longtime use of the ESV. While the ESV is a great translation I will continue to consult, there are certain details that the translation committee maintains were carried out in regards to literalness that are just not so. This leaves the ESV unnecessarily difficult to understand at times. The HCSB, while coming quite close to being a better NIV, falls short with its inconsistent usage of Yahweh (God's name) and Messiah (over Christ). For new or nonbelievers, the HCSB's usage of the aforementioned words can lead one to believe that the Lord and Yahweh might be different Gods when the words are sometimes used interchangeably in the same sentence. The NLT is another great translation, but it just becomes too dynamic at times.

We hope and pray that we've made the right choice. We've carefully considered the alternatives, and discussions amongst my team lead to this change. I thank them for their excellent input and patience. May the peace of God be upon you, and may all glory be His!

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NIV
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 

Axehead

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Well, those that have the "Interpreter" residing within can always take comfort in the fact that even with many redactions, the gospels are reliable. I understand the motive to go with "easily understandable" versions rather than precise. We live in a dumbed down society. The KJV will actually improve one's vocabulary and understanding of theological concepts.

The Gospels Are Reliable Even With Many Redactions
 
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Rex

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Can you still add the translation abbreviation behind your verse to display optional translations?

AMP
ASV
ESV
KJV
NKJV
NASV
TNIV
NIRV


John 1:1
John 1:1 ASV
John 1:1 ESV
John 1:1 KJV
John 1:1 NKJV
John 1:1 NLT
John 1:1 TNIV
John 1:1 NIRV


Looks like it you can pick your own If you choose to do so


Maybe Hammerstone can provide a complete list of abbreviations for bible versions available for Reftagger
 

SilenceInMotion

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I believe Catholic translation is the most accurate simply because the Greek and Roman churches have natural knowledge of both Greek and Hebrew, and was cross examined by many, many people of all cultures.
The translatioins differ, but they keep a consistent Catholic attitude.

The King James translations should be the central Protestant Bible in my opinion. It's probably the next closest thing to the Latin Vulgate in my opinion.

While I do not like the idea of so many translations, I do give the NIV a certain amount of credit because it was a huge development by a lot of credible people. It's not just the typical 'run of the mill' alternative translation.
 

Rex

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SilenceInMotion said:
I believe Catholic translation is the most accurate simply because the Greek and Roman churches have natural knowledge of both Greek and Hebrew, and was cross examined by many, many people of all cultures.
The translatioins differ, but they keep a consistent Catholic attitude.

The King James translations should be the central Protestant Bible in my opinion. It's probably the next closest thing to the Latin Vulgate in my opinion.

While I do not like the idea of so many translations, I do give the NIV a certain amount of credit because it was a huge development by a lot of credible people. It's not just the typical 'run of the mill' alternative translation.
jersey6.jpg
 

Axehead

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Rex said:
Can you still add the translation abbreviation behind your verse to display optional translations?

AMP
ASV
ESV
KJV
NKJV
NASV
TNIV
NIRV


John 1:1
John 1:1 ASV
John 1:1 ESV
John 1:1 KJV
John 1:1 NKJV
John 1:1 NLT
John 1:1 TNIV
John 1:1 NIRV


Looks like it you can pick your own If you choose to do so


Maybe Hammerstone can provide a complete list of abbreviations for bible versions available for Reftagger
That would be cool if you could pick your own translation. That may take a bit of custom programming, though.
 

Rex

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Axehead said:
That would be cool if you could pick your own translation. That may take a bit of custom programming, though.
You can by simply following the verse with the abbreviations like I did above

John 3:16 KJV
John 3:16 ESV
John 3:16 <- default NIV


scroll over them and see for yourself
 

Axehead

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Rex said:
You can by simply following the verse with the abbreviations like I did above

John 3:16 KJV
John 3:16 ESV
John 3:16 <- default NIV


scroll over them and see for yourself
Rex,

That is awesome. I did not catch that before. Thank you very much.

And thank you, Hammerstone. Really cool feature. I'm sure I will use another version sometimes if readability fits the occasion. I am not a KJV only, just a "preferred". I am a Holy Spirit Only, though. Don't like them other spirits. ;)
 

HammerStone

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Can you still add the translation abbreviation behind your verse to display optional translations?
Yes, you can do this; eventually we hope to integrate a control panel where you can set your default version of choice. However, I like to quote from multiple versions, so I use this feature a decent bit.

Maybe Hammerstone can provide a complete list of abbreviations for bible versions available for Reftagger
Sure, to my knowledge, they are:

AMP = Amplified Version
ASV = American Standard Version
DARBY = Darby Bible
ESV = English Standard Version
GW = God's Word Version
HCSB = Holman Christian Standard Bible
KJV = King James Version
LEB = Lexham English Bible
MESSAGE = The Message Translation
NASB = New American Standard Bible
NCV = New Century Version
NIV = New International Version '11 (our default)
NIRV = New International Reader's Version
NKJV = New King James Version
NLT = New Living Translation
DOUAYRHEIMS = Douay Rheims Bible
YLT = Young's Living Translation

The NIV84 and TNIV versions have been discontinued; they used to be options, but since Zondervan published the NIV11 update, these versions are no longer in use online or in print. I believe Reftagger tags these as NIV11 now if I am not mistaken.
 

Axehead

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Hammer, you've got a very user friendly site. I don't know another one that is as user friendly as this one. It demonstrates a lot of work that has gone into it. What software do you use? Is it vBulletin or is it "Community Forum Software"? That's what it says in the lower right hand column, by IP.Board.

I was wondering if Ctrl keys were turned off. I cannot use control keys anymore using IE, Chrome or Safari for Bold, Underline, Italics, etc.
 

HammerStone

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Hammer, you've got a very user friendly site. I don't know another one that is as user friendly as this one. It demonstrates a lot of work that has gone into it. What software do you use? Is it vBulletin or is it "Community Forum Software"? That's what it says in the lower right hand column, by IP.Board.

I was wondering if Ctrl keys were turned off. I cannot use control keys anymore using IE, Chrome or Safari for Bold, Underline, Italics, etc.
Thank you. It's mostly due to the forum software, but we've tried to set it up to where it's usable and make things as straight forward as possible. I find this software very strong on the user side. And yes, the software is called Invision Power Board (IP.Board or IBP for short).

Ctrl keys are turned off, sorry. It's a gripe of mine as well, but the software developers rewrote the reply feature and I don't believe the ability to use them is yet available. I don't have an ETA at the moment, but I plan on spending some time trying to figure out how to enable them myself.

Wow! I have noticed that the NIV84 has been removed From Biblica, Gateway, youversion and other bible apps. I liked my fiery bible version :unsure:
Sometimes It pays to have a hardcopy on hand....esp when the owners decide to update.
www.biblica.com/niv/previous-editions/
https://support.bibl...-NIV-Transition
Yes, the NIV84 and TNIV can no longer be published nor viewable online (possibly with a few holdouts somewhere) as of 2013. It was part of Zondervan's wishes to bring the TNIV and old NIV users under the umbrella of the NIV.

I definitely advocate and use hard copies. If you want a copy of the NIV84, I suggest purchasing one soon, as they are out of print. Sites like Christian Book have them still: http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/easy_find?Ntt=niv+1984&N=0&Ntk=keywords&action=Search&Ne=0&event=ESRCQ&nav_search=1&cms=1

Essentially what Biblica (and Zondervan) did was update a Bible under some limited commercial/profit influence - I think we all need to be honest on that. However, there were legitimate changes as the use of English has indeed changed in 20-30 years. I'm fully open to any PMs or threads about the NIV from anyone (FYI for everyone). The NIV11 is really not a bad version, and I think most qualms can be addressed reasonably. At this point, I think the NIV11 is an improvement on the NIV84.
 

Angelina

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Hmm...The point for me was that the choice was there...I'm wondering if they would also remove the KJV in favor of the NKJV next :huh:

Just my thoughts - Blessings!
 

Rex

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Angelina said:
Hmm...The point for me was that the choice was there...I'm wondering if they would also remove the KJV in favor of the NKJV next :huh:

Just my thoughts - Blessings!
I think it's a decision by the publisher "the copy right holder" it's not a decision by people that distribute bibles on-line or in hard copy there hands are tied.

My first bible was a 1978 NIV a gift, after it was falling apart I painstakingly transfered all my highlights and notes to a good leather bound 1984 NIV.

Sometimes I enjoy looking and reading at what was of the greatest importance and interest to me then


It brings back memories
 

HammerStone

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Exactly, Rex. Angelina, the decision was made not by any of the sites or software, but by the publisher (Zondervan). Essentially, they wanted a single stream of the version. The TNIV was meant to replace the NIV, but it was so unpopular in its choices that it was rejected. Otherwise, the TNIV would have probably eventually phased out the NIV84. Zondervan then published the updated NIV(11) with the requirement that the NIV84 would cease to be published or in displayed on websites, etc.

The KJV is public domain outside of England, and the NKJV is published by Thomas Nelson.
 

Angelina

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I'm not familiar with the TNIV? :huh: I think I had posted something about the NIV in the past. Will see if I can find it
Bless ya!
 

HammerStone

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Today's New International Version. I don't know how far abroad outside of the US it made it; I believe it was at least published in the United Kingdom, but that's all I know. What really set things off was the publishing of the NIVI (NIV Inclusive) which was apparently quite strong in its translation choices, moreso than the NIV11 and probably more like the NRSV (which, IMHO, the NRSV is not a bad translation). The TNIV was simply more aggressive than the current NIV on the gender language.

This link shows some of the stats: http://biblewebapp.com/niv2011-changes/
 

Axehead

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I wonder why other Bibles have not been made Public Domain?

Public Domain should ensure the KJV is always around, unchanged.
 

HammerStone

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I wonder why other Bibles have not been made Public Domain?
There are actually a handful that have, but the short answer is economics and copyright issues. The KJV was underwritten by the crown, so you have a tremendous source of funds in that day. What's interesting to me is that I've never really seen a dollar figure with production of the original KJV, but I have seen it said that it took 3 years to arrange for payment of the scholars who produced it. Obviously, we are no longer in a world where a government could accomplish this.

There are actually some public domain Bibles being produced, the World English Bible (WEB) is one of them and it can be found at http://www.ebible.org/ . You'll notice that it's available online, but actual published copies cost money through a publisher. There are others, I believe, but I don't know as much about them.

The economics of our system in the world make it such that it costs in the millions just to produce the translation. Then, there are costs involved with the production and distribution of the Bible, let alone any marketing. (Even in the case of the Bible, you cannot just send it to a few stores and hope to recoup investments without some sort of public awareness campaign to handle the economy of scale.)

IMHO, the best choice you have is to look at the publishers and look for ones like Crossway or Broadman & Holoman where you have a church/denomination-based publishing house that produces and sales the translations. That was my hangup with the NIV in that it is Zondervan (which is a good company, but it's primarily a company) that publishes the Bible version.

As to public domain ensuring that it remains unchanged - that's actually erroneous. Public domain means it can be modified, and we've seen that with the introduction of the Queen James Version with a certain political bent to it. In fact, it would be far far easier, IMHO, to secretly and maliciously change the KJV than it would a copyrighted version precisely because it is public domain.
 
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Angelina

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As to public domain ensuring that it remains unchanged - that's actually erroneous. Public domain means it can be modified, and we've seen that with the introduction of the Queen James Version with a certain political bent to it. In fact, it would be far far easier, IMHO, to secretly and maliciously change the KJV than it would a copyrighted version precisely because it is public domain.
That's sad and I've just read an article about QJV and that is really sad... :unsure: Thanks for the info HS

BB