2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; 10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death works in us, but life in you.
Dependence—Not Independence
- Thread starter Netchaplain
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
One thing I've always admired of your posts is that you often center on key points and I believe this one is the granddaddy.dragonfly said:
"It is finished" (John 19:30). Actually, your thought that it's not related to His death is close, because it is and it's primarily related to the Law. I'm not indicating this to challenge your opinion, but because I believe it's true.
Salvation could only come from One who could fulfill the requirement of the Law, which was obedience or death for disobedience, for "the soul that sinneth, it shall die," confirmed what God told Adam concerning disobedience, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
This is why for Israel (as representative of mankind), the Law was only a curse because it made man accountable, by God revealing His will concerning sin. Even though Christ was never disobedient to the Law while He was under it, He still answered to its requirement of death--for us. The purpose for His perfect obedience wasn't so it could be imputed to our account, but so that He would qualify as being the spotless Lamb for sacrifice.
This is also why man did not need to attain to his own righteousness and therefore stands only in Christ's through imputation, which was God's foreknown plan; "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us . . . righteousness" (1 Cor 1:30).
"So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit."
I believe the Scriptures teach that by His “finished work” (John 19:30) the penalty for sins is removed (as He is the sacrifice for our sins), and the power of sin is broken and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit in Christian lives is now operative.
In the Jewish temple the responsibilities of the priests were never finished. “And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: ” (Heb. 10:11), but Jesus “after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” (Heb. 10:12).
If you recall, there was no place to sit in the Jewish temple because the job was never done. This same thought is true of religion in general as it requires ever-repetitive rituals and exercises in an attempt to please God. Jesus, on the other hand, “accomplished the work which the Father gave Him to do” (John 17:4), and exclaimed from the cross, “It is finished!” (John 19:30). That is why He sat down, not because He was tired, but because He had triumphed over evil.
The "finished work" of Jesus dealt with men's sins effectively and finally in order to restore men to God. That is why Paul can tell the Ephesians that all Christians are “seated in the heavenlies with Christ” (Eph. 1:20; 2:6), resting (Heb. 4:1-11) in Christ’s “finished work.” Those who profess Christ but don't rest in His finished work are always reverting back to religion and its ceaseless activities.
We are called to know Him and abide in Him and follow His lead. We never arrive at the place where we can say, "Ok Lord, I see how it's done, I will take it from here." However, this has been the unspoken statement of "religious" men through the centuries.
Axehead
In the Jewish temple the responsibilities of the priests were never finished. “And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: ” (Heb. 10:11), but Jesus “after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;” (Heb. 10:12).
If you recall, there was no place to sit in the Jewish temple because the job was never done. This same thought is true of religion in general as it requires ever-repetitive rituals and exercises in an attempt to please God. Jesus, on the other hand, “accomplished the work which the Father gave Him to do” (John 17:4), and exclaimed from the cross, “It is finished!” (John 19:30). That is why He sat down, not because He was tired, but because He had triumphed over evil.
The "finished work" of Jesus dealt with men's sins effectively and finally in order to restore men to God. That is why Paul can tell the Ephesians that all Christians are “seated in the heavenlies with Christ” (Eph. 1:20; 2:6), resting (Heb. 4:1-11) in Christ’s “finished work.” Those who profess Christ but don't rest in His finished work are always reverting back to religion and its ceaseless activities.
We are called to know Him and abide in Him and follow His lead. We never arrive at the place where we can say, "Ok Lord, I see how it's done, I will take it from here." However, this has been the unspoken statement of "religious" men through the centuries.
Axehead
Our answers are synonymous; Christ satisfied the requirement of perfect obedience to the Law by living it perfectly; He also satisfied the requirement of death for disobedience to the Law, but it was our disobedience, not His. It was not in His perfect obedience that effected atonement for our sins, this just qualified Him to be the only perfect sacrifice for what did effect the atonement--His death, instead of our's.Axehead said:
1 Cor 13
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
1 Cor 15 Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in
a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the
trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So
when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put
on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is
written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[g]
55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore,
my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the
work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
1 Cor 15 Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in
a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the
trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So
when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put
on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is
written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[g]
55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore,
my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the
work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
Hi Bob,
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by, 'Actually, your thought that it's not related to His death is close, because it is ...' Aren't you saying that 'It is finished' is related to His death?
Well, of course there is a relationship, but I wasn't saying there was no relationship, I asked you what you believe He was referring to when He cried, 'It is finished', since it couldn't have been His death.
I am not aware of having indicated my opinion, so your suggestion that it is the Law, is interesting. It's interesting because I think your reasoning is in reverse, as keeping the law did not prevent anyone from dying, but it did give them a better hope regarding their future after resurrection.
This is true. But the law helped the Lord to demonstrate how pure and perfect His humanity was, compared to ours.
That is an interesting statement, too. I would have said it was a curse because of what Paul said, 'Except the law had said, 'Thou shalt not covet', I had not known covetousness'. He also says that the moment the law makes a statement like that, it seems to stir up whatever is prohibited in the heart of the intending law-keeper.
Here is another amazing statement, 'Even though Christ was never disobedient to the Law while He was under it.' Why would He be disobedient to His own legal standard? Wasn't the whole point of the law, to show Israel how far from God's standard they continually strayed?
Again I think you're missing something. His perfect obedience was absolutely essential to our righteousness. There was very little doubt that He would qualify as the spotless Lamb for sacrifice. Prophecy had foretold it.
Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. 6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YAHWEH our Righteousness.
Another aspect of the righteousness of Yahweh was that He intended to 'provide Himself a sacrifice'. We don't usually think of Abraham as prophetic, but that was a stunning statement! Later Paul takes this up in Romans 3 when defining justification. Proverbs 17:15.
Axehead has stated what I believe, but, I don't think you believe:
(YLT) Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man the sin entered into the world, and the death by the sin; and so the death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Luke 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees...' [That is, of the trees of the knowledge of good and evil in man. Isa 27:1]
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
When He cried, 'It is finished', yes, the law had served it's purpose, but the whole reason for the law - the sin - had now been cut off permanently for all who will reckon themselves dead to sin (and the world, willing to mortify the flesh and resist the devil)..
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
It is quite difficult to justify saying that 'the sin' has not been completely overcome by the Lord either for us or in us, if we accept v 6 above.
(YLT) Colossians 2:11 in whom also ye were circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh in the circumcision of the Christ, 12 being buried with him in the baptism, in which also ye rose with [him] through the faith of the working of God, who did raise him out of the dead. 13 And you--being dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh--He made alive together with him, having forgiven you all the trespasses,
Likewise, we are not being circumcised as an ongoing present continuous event. It is done. We were circumcised when we believed.
Though our understanding varies on the subject of this thread, I believe the basic concepts involved are about the same and thanks to all who replied for your correspondence on it.
God's blessing to your Families!
God Be Blessed
DF - How do you use the multiple quotes access to address another's quotes in sections like you just did? Thanks!
God's blessing to your Families!
God Be Blessed
DF - How do you use the multiple quotes access to address another's quotes in sections like you just did? Thanks!
Hi Bob,
The way I did the last post, was first to click on the speech bubble in the dashboard, which creates the Quote frame with a cursor already sitting in the left hand end of it; then I pasted the text using Ctrl + v. (Select text by highlighting and copying it using Ctrl + c), (Ctrl + x will cut a section of highlighted text if you want to move it somewhere else in a post.)
It is also possible to select the text you wish to quote, paste it into your reply, highlight it, and then click the speech bubble which will make a Quote box appear round it. This can also be undone using the curved blue undo arrow.
One can make a Quote look exactly the same, this way also: first, use square brackets around the word quote in front of the text to appear in the Quote box, and at the end of the text, in square brackets again add a forward slash in front of the word quote. When you finally load your reply, the Quote boxes will all be there.
About the topic of the thread, dependence is the whole point of coming back into fellowship with God. He hates unbelief, disobedience and rebellion, not because He hates us, but because these factors continually threaten to keep us out of the relationship with Him, wherein He wants us to know Him as our spiritual Father, and His love for us and mankind.
I do think there is a major difference in what has been described by me, compared with your choice of words. Axehead has made a greater attempt at finding agreement with your terminology, than I have, because there is great value in altering how we think, until we are thinking in line with the scriptural declarations of truth - especially on such a major topic as whether the power of sin was broken by Christ on the cross, or not. You don't seem to believe it was...
But understanding this aspect of His work at Calvary is at least as central as His redemptive work, in its fulfilment of Genesis 3:15. It's the foundation of the apostles' teaching about victory over sin, which every one of them mentions.
The idea that Paul could write what we call Romans 8 and Romans 6, while neither knowing about the dynamics of Christ's victory over sin, nor experiencing them, (as some people think he is complaining in Romans 7), is nonsensical. Sorry. Romans 6 clearly describes how we are to think of ourselves as grafted into Christ's death, for the purpose of also being raised up with Him spiritually, so that we may walk in newness of life now. Romans 6:4. Everything which follows that verse describes how we are to understand our status and experiences in the light of our death in Christ's crucifixion. This is also the purpose and meaning of Hebrews 10:14. Spiritually, we have been perfected, if we are in Christ.
Our battles in the mind and with the lusts of the flesh, are to be expected. Also to be expected is that we will move from victory to victory, until we are in agreement with 1 Peter 4:1, 2. This is why we gaze upon Christ in the Spirit - that we may be changed into His likeness, from glory to glory. 2 Corinthians 3:18. The text of Tyndale's New Testament, translated from the same manuscripts Erasmus used, does not contain any allusion to a mirror. (I could be wrong, but I think the mirror was added somewhere along the line.) Even in the OT, there is no 'mirror' between God's face and ours.
Faith is not about hoping in a concept, but about knowing that the word of God is true, and can be depended upon unto the saving of one's soul. This is the beginning of experiencing Romans 8:11, which is really what happens once one is putting Romans 8:13 into action - not by the strength of one's own will or flesh life, but by the leading of the Spirit.
Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
The activation of Romans 8:13 depends on believing that something radical has already happened in the spiritual realm, at the cross. Of course it is wonderful that Christ became our substitute to bear our penalty for sin, and through His death we may receive forgiveness and redemption through the shedding of His blood, but we would be really stuck if He had not also crushed the serpent's head, as God told Eve He would do. Each believer would still be powerless to cease from sin, and would be latched on to God only as a kind of forgiveness machine. We would be in exactly the same position as the Old Covenant saints, who could never cease from sin, and could never have a clear conscience. Yet 'a conscience void of offence' is one of Paul's testimonies, as is Peter's 'has ceased from sin', and John's 'if any man sin'...
Not being able to cease from sin would also exclude us from the sonship of God which is described in the New Testament. How would that be 'good news'? (We would still be separated from God and spiritually powerless against sin.)
Rather, the finished work of Christ does include the breaking of Satan's power per se. This is the ground of all victory.
1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. Could Paul's statement be any more clear? I exhort you to ponder how different he was after he was born again. This man had experienced a radical change of heart and spirit, just as the OT prophets had proclaimed to us.
Philippians 1:19 '... I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
God bless you, Bob. :)
The way I did the last post, was first to click on the speech bubble in the dashboard, which creates the Quote frame with a cursor already sitting in the left hand end of it; then I pasted the text using Ctrl + v. (Select text by highlighting and copying it using Ctrl + c), (Ctrl + x will cut a section of highlighted text if you want to move it somewhere else in a post.)
It is also possible to select the text you wish to quote, paste it into your reply, highlight it, and then click the speech bubble which will make a Quote box appear round it. This can also be undone using the curved blue undo arrow.
One can make a Quote look exactly the same, this way also: first, use square brackets around the word quote in front of the text to appear in the Quote box, and at the end of the text, in square brackets again add a forward slash in front of the word quote. When you finally load your reply, the Quote boxes will all be there.
About the topic of the thread, dependence is the whole point of coming back into fellowship with God. He hates unbelief, disobedience and rebellion, not because He hates us, but because these factors continually threaten to keep us out of the relationship with Him, wherein He wants us to know Him as our spiritual Father, and His love for us and mankind.
I do think there is a major difference in what has been described by me, compared with your choice of words. Axehead has made a greater attempt at finding agreement with your terminology, than I have, because there is great value in altering how we think, until we are thinking in line with the scriptural declarations of truth - especially on such a major topic as whether the power of sin was broken by Christ on the cross, or not. You don't seem to believe it was...
But understanding this aspect of His work at Calvary is at least as central as His redemptive work, in its fulfilment of Genesis 3:15. It's the foundation of the apostles' teaching about victory over sin, which every one of them mentions.
The idea that Paul could write what we call Romans 8 and Romans 6, while neither knowing about the dynamics of Christ's victory over sin, nor experiencing them, (as some people think he is complaining in Romans 7), is nonsensical. Sorry. Romans 6 clearly describes how we are to think of ourselves as grafted into Christ's death, for the purpose of also being raised up with Him spiritually, so that we may walk in newness of life now. Romans 6:4. Everything which follows that verse describes how we are to understand our status and experiences in the light of our death in Christ's crucifixion. This is also the purpose and meaning of Hebrews 10:14. Spiritually, we have been perfected, if we are in Christ.
Our battles in the mind and with the lusts of the flesh, are to be expected. Also to be expected is that we will move from victory to victory, until we are in agreement with 1 Peter 4:1, 2. This is why we gaze upon Christ in the Spirit - that we may be changed into His likeness, from glory to glory. 2 Corinthians 3:18. The text of Tyndale's New Testament, translated from the same manuscripts Erasmus used, does not contain any allusion to a mirror. (I could be wrong, but I think the mirror was added somewhere along the line.) Even in the OT, there is no 'mirror' between God's face and ours.
Faith is not about hoping in a concept, but about knowing that the word of God is true, and can be depended upon unto the saving of one's soul. This is the beginning of experiencing Romans 8:11, which is really what happens once one is putting Romans 8:13 into action - not by the strength of one's own will or flesh life, but by the leading of the Spirit.
Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because he makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
The activation of Romans 8:13 depends on believing that something radical has already happened in the spiritual realm, at the cross. Of course it is wonderful that Christ became our substitute to bear our penalty for sin, and through His death we may receive forgiveness and redemption through the shedding of His blood, but we would be really stuck if He had not also crushed the serpent's head, as God told Eve He would do. Each believer would still be powerless to cease from sin, and would be latched on to God only as a kind of forgiveness machine. We would be in exactly the same position as the Old Covenant saints, who could never cease from sin, and could never have a clear conscience. Yet 'a conscience void of offence' is one of Paul's testimonies, as is Peter's 'has ceased from sin', and John's 'if any man sin'...
Not being able to cease from sin would also exclude us from the sonship of God which is described in the New Testament. How would that be 'good news'? (We would still be separated from God and spiritually powerless against sin.)
Rather, the finished work of Christ does include the breaking of Satan's power per se. This is the ground of all victory.
1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. Could Paul's statement be any more clear? I exhort you to ponder how different he was after he was born again. This man had experienced a radical change of heart and spirit, just as the OT prophets had proclaimed to us.
Philippians 1:19 '... I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, 20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
God bless you, Bob. :)
Before we can continue, we should first establish our opinions concerning Paul's reference to himself in Romans 7. The concept concerning whether or not Paul was referencing himself as a regenerate or unregenerate is vital to establish in order to determine understanding or misunderstanding his teaching here.dragonfly said:
It is my conviction that his entire chapter seven discourse is in reference to his regenerate self, while in his regenerate state. I'm sure you agree with the significance as to expressing our opinions concerning this issue, because it determines our interpretation.
Thanks Brother
Hi Bob,
It is my conviction that his entire chapter seven discourse is in reference to his regenerate self, while in his regenerate state. I'm sure you agree with the significance as to expressing our opinions concerning this issue, because it determines our interpretation.
Well, you probably won't be surprised that I don't agree with you, the main reason being that he is describing himself under the law. in verse 4 he specifically states: 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law . Also? Doesn't that mean.... as well as Paul and other believers being dead to the law?
Paul has stated, also, right at the start of Romans 6:1 '... Shall we continue in sin ... 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (This is the beginning of the end of the split personality he describes at the end of Romans 7.)
First of all, he is 'dead to sin' (Romans 6:2) We know this is because he has been grafted into the death of Christ Romans 6:5, through baptism into His death Romans 6:3. We also know that he has been raised in Christ (Christ is alive from the dead.) to walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4. He spends the rest of the chapter explaining how it is necessary to yield one's 'members' (body parts) to serve righteousness (because we all serve something/someone) and he quotes Jesus (effectively) when he states that we are whosever servants we obey. John 8:34. This is the beginning of the discussion which carries on into Romans 7. At the end of Romans 6 he says, v 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Do you see that 'became' is in the past tense?
He goes on:
19 even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Note the present tense.
Having explained in detail how the death of Christ - if we are baptised/planted in the likeness of it - sets us free from the power of sin, he goes on to deal with how this change has a bearing on the Jewish believer's relationship with 'the law'. The person who was putting the numbers beside the verses, deciding where to make the chapter break, correctly detects a slight change of subject, and starts a new chapter, just to cover 'the law'.
Romans 7: '... but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Paul is making the same point as in Romans 6:22. It's about good, (not bad) fruit.
Note: Paul is saying we will bring forth fruit unto God if we are dead to the law, as well as sin. The law was like a husband who died, setting his wife (those previously bound by that law) free to 'be married to another' (Christ).
He goes on: 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Paul said the same thing in Romans 6:21. He is entirely consistent. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He explains what the oldness of the letter did to him: 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. It is now clear he is referring back to when he was under the law. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me ... Let's stop right here. Paul has just said 'sin, working death in me'.
That statement is totally at variance with what he had said earlier in the chapter about being dead to the law (already), and all through chapter 6, where he was explaining the effect of being united in Christ's death with Him, so as to be raised in Him to walk in newness of life, now.
He continues: that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Again, clearly, he is talking about when he was under the law - the law which he has just exhorted the brethren (v 4) to understand they are no longer under.
How did they know they were under the law (unregenerate)? 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Paul is very sure he is not describing what it is to be walking in the Spirit. He's describing the opposite of Romans 6:20, 21.
The rest of chapter 7 is about how his body seemed to be doing its own thing, independently of his mental desire to keep the (good, holy, righteous) law. Romans 7:12. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. It is only a few lines until he states that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes him free from the law of sin and death.
Because of all that Paul has expounded already, explaining how being dead in Christ (crucified with him - Romans 6:6, Gal 2:20) releases us from sin, it is a real stretch to hold that his description in Romans 7:23 is a statement about the regenerate man. Brother Bob, there is glorious victory now for those who receive His death in its totality.
I am not saying there is no struggle, but the terms of that struggle are defined elsewhere in the NT - even in the OT, pictorially - and God's enemies are always defeated when we fight our battles His way.
Thus, when Paul asks 'who shall deliver' him from 'this death' (the working of the law of sin) which was informing his spiritual life while under the law, the answer is bound to have something to do with Christ, whom he has proclaimed in each preceding chapter, declaring how He took 'the sin' to the cross with Him, and slew it there.
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, = most definitely is destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Manifestly, Paul has declared several times that he is 'freed from sin' by the time he gets to Romans 7:13, and then, as from Romans 7:1, 2, he gives the law for context all the way through to the end of the chapter.
Had he omitted to preface his statements about the law with his v 4 exhortation to the brethren to understand that through the body of Christ they are dead to the law, it might be more possible to conclude, incorrectly, that he is describing life in the Spirit, but by the time we get to Romans 8:3, 4, he is still talking about how the death of Christ freed them from the law, in such a way as to enable them (and us) to fulfil the righteousness of the law.
This is not to be confused with being 'under' 'the law'. The dynamic effect of obedience to Christ by the Spirit, always produces righteousness.
I'm not sure if we still have a discussion going on here, Bob, because I'm satisfied that Paul is not describing life in the Spirit in Romans 7, apart from the second part of v 3, and the whole of verse 4.
The rest of the chapter is a discussion about the strengths of the law and its effects.
God bless you. :)
It is my conviction that his entire chapter seven discourse is in reference to his regenerate self, while in his regenerate state. I'm sure you agree with the significance as to expressing our opinions concerning this issue, because it determines our interpretation.
Well, you probably won't be surprised that I don't agree with you, the main reason being that he is describing himself under the law. in verse 4 he specifically states: 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law . Also? Doesn't that mean.... as well as Paul and other believers being dead to the law?
Paul has stated, also, right at the start of Romans 6:1 '... Shall we continue in sin ... 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (This is the beginning of the end of the split personality he describes at the end of Romans 7.)
First of all, he is 'dead to sin' (Romans 6:2) We know this is because he has been grafted into the death of Christ Romans 6:5, through baptism into His death Romans 6:3. We also know that he has been raised in Christ (Christ is alive from the dead.) to walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4. He spends the rest of the chapter explaining how it is necessary to yield one's 'members' (body parts) to serve righteousness (because we all serve something/someone) and he quotes Jesus (effectively) when he states that we are whosever servants we obey. John 8:34. This is the beginning of the discussion which carries on into Romans 7. At the end of Romans 6 he says, v 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Do you see that 'became' is in the past tense?
He goes on:
19 even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. Note the present tense.
Having explained in detail how the death of Christ - if we are baptised/planted in the likeness of it - sets us free from the power of sin, he goes on to deal with how this change has a bearing on the Jewish believer's relationship with 'the law'. The person who was putting the numbers beside the verses, deciding where to make the chapter break, correctly detects a slight change of subject, and starts a new chapter, just to cover 'the law'.
Romans 7: '... but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Paul is making the same point as in Romans 6:22. It's about good, (not bad) fruit.
Note: Paul is saying we will bring forth fruit unto God if we are dead to the law, as well as sin. The law was like a husband who died, setting his wife (those previously bound by that law) free to 'be married to another' (Christ).
He goes on: 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Paul said the same thing in Romans 6:21. He is entirely consistent. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He explains what the oldness of the letter did to him: 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. It is now clear he is referring back to when he was under the law. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me ... Let's stop right here. Paul has just said 'sin, working death in me'.
That statement is totally at variance with what he had said earlier in the chapter about being dead to the law (already), and all through chapter 6, where he was explaining the effect of being united in Christ's death with Him, so as to be raised in Him to walk in newness of life, now.
He continues: that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Again, clearly, he is talking about when he was under the law - the law which he has just exhorted the brethren (v 4) to understand they are no longer under.
How did they know they were under the law (unregenerate)? 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. Paul is very sure he is not describing what it is to be walking in the Spirit. He's describing the opposite of Romans 6:20, 21.
The rest of chapter 7 is about how his body seemed to be doing its own thing, independently of his mental desire to keep the (good, holy, righteous) law. Romans 7:12. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. It is only a few lines until he states that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes him free from the law of sin and death.
Because of all that Paul has expounded already, explaining how being dead in Christ (crucified with him - Romans 6:6, Gal 2:20) releases us from sin, it is a real stretch to hold that his description in Romans 7:23 is a statement about the regenerate man. Brother Bob, there is glorious victory now for those who receive His death in its totality.
I am not saying there is no struggle, but the terms of that struggle are defined elsewhere in the NT - even in the OT, pictorially - and God's enemies are always defeated when we fight our battles His way.
Thus, when Paul asks 'who shall deliver' him from 'this death' (the working of the law of sin) which was informing his spiritual life while under the law, the answer is bound to have something to do with Christ, whom he has proclaimed in each preceding chapter, declaring how He took 'the sin' to the cross with Him, and slew it there.
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, = most definitely is destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Manifestly, Paul has declared several times that he is 'freed from sin' by the time he gets to Romans 7:13, and then, as from Romans 7:1, 2, he gives the law for context all the way through to the end of the chapter.
Had he omitted to preface his statements about the law with his v 4 exhortation to the brethren to understand that through the body of Christ they are dead to the law, it might be more possible to conclude, incorrectly, that he is describing life in the Spirit, but by the time we get to Romans 8:3, 4, he is still talking about how the death of Christ freed them from the law, in such a way as to enable them (and us) to fulfil the righteousness of the law.
This is not to be confused with being 'under' 'the law'. The dynamic effect of obedience to Christ by the Spirit, always produces righteousness.
I'm not sure if we still have a discussion going on here, Bob, because I'm satisfied that Paul is not describing life in the Spirit in Romans 7, apart from the second part of v 3, and the whole of verse 4.
The rest of the chapter is a discussion about the strengths of the law and its effects.
God bless you. :)
Hi Brother - I'm not sure what you mean by, "he is describing himself under the law," when v 4 describes him not being under the Law, but dead to the Law.dragonfly said:
The phrase "dead to sin" does not intend a state of absence of our sin nature, nor the absence of sin's effect on the believer, for the sin nature still resides within and still effects the believer; but no longer to the extent of "reigning" or "domination" (Rom 6:12, 14). This also answers to the intention of "free from sin"; not free from its presence or effect but free from its guilt and rule.dragonfly said:
"Though believers are entirely dead to sin as justified persons, yet not perfectly so as sanctified: they are indeed dead to sin, but sin is not dead in them; it struggles, it makes war, leads captive, and threatens absolute and universal dominion." - J Gill
No one, even the believer, can say "we have no sin" (I John 1:8); and admitting (confessing) we have sin only incurs forgiveness because of the sin, not the removal of it. The phrase "forgive us our sins" (1 John 1:9) designs God's forgiveness for the sinner, but not for sin itself, because it is "condemned" (Rom 8:3).
In Romans 7:17, 20, Paul wrote that, "it is no more I that do it"; meaning that "I" as his "new man" or new nature, is not doing the wrong because it is his old "I", or "old man", which is still present, that was doing the wrong.
In verse 25 Paul describes his final state as one regenerate with indwelling sin and chapter 8 details it all. If you will excuse me for using John Gill's commentary for this, I would be appreciative because I believe he explains it most inclusively:
"So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin"; He divides himself as it were into two parts, the mind, by which he means his inward man, his renewed self; and "the flesh," by which he designs his carnal I, that was sold under sin: and hereby he accounts for his serving, at different times, two different laws; "the law of God," written on his mind, and in the service of which he delighted as a regenerate man; "and the law of sin," to which he was sometimes carried captive.
"It should be taken notice of that he does not say "I have served," as referring to his past state of unregeneracy, but "I serve," as respecting his present state as a believer in Christ.
"Which as they are two different principles, regard two different laws: add to all this, that this last account the apostle gives of himself, and which agrees with all he had said before, and confirms the whole, was delivered by him, after he had with so much faith and fervency given thanks to God in a view of his future complete deliverance from sin; which is a clinching argument and proof that he speaks of himself, in this whole discourse concerning indwelling sin, as a regenerate person."
Hi Bob,
I'm sorry for the confusing start of my post! I can really see that now, and that I had one particular thought in my head which I didn't express at all. So, let me start again!
However, I have written three reasonably comprehensive posts to which you have not really replied except when you tried to smooth over all the differences pointed out by saying
With reference to Romans 7, within the context of the whole letter, this is the only place where Paul goes into detail of what it was like inside while trying to live under the law - apart from the second half of v 3, and the whole of vv 4 and 6.
The whole chapter is a testimony of how awful it was to live under the law, until the death and resurrection of Christ by which (they - Israelites and Jews) were finally freed from the law, legally, though not experiencing that liberty until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and subsequent revelation as the Lord had promised His disciples.
I am indebted to you for this comment:
'Condemnation', and 'Justification', are terminology from the realms of courtrooms and judges. We are no longer condemned if we are in Christ (that is, in His death and His resurrection). By faith we are justified (on God's terms only). Romans 5:1
We can't make up our own terms for justification by faith, as your post attempts to do. I cannot say strongly enough how disappointed I am that you posted such a large quote from John Gill. It is many years since I came across his commentaries being quoted online. Some portions are okay, but this was pure fantasy! It is neither the gospel of the OT nor the gospel of the NT. It is an entirely carnal fabrication which contains not one jot of meaningful good news. Do you realise that what you are preaching doesn't even make sense, far less lead anyone to eternal life?
The contortions required to accommodate John Gill's/your 'exposition' are very far removed from the beauty and simplicity of God's solution to the problem of sin, which is clearly explained by Paul in Romans 6 and 8 and many other sections of his epistles.
Earlier in the thread you were happy to refer to Christ as our Substitute. But now it turns out you want to qualify His most stupendous victory over the power of sin in such as way as to make it inaccessible to believers? I am astonished you think this is good news! The GOOD NEWS is that IN CHRIST the sin which is in us, is put to death. We receive His death by faith, and thus we receive the spiritual power (Holy Spirit) to help us starve our sinful habits out of expression. Out of existence, actually, if we have any intention to live a life which is pleasing to God, now, as the apostles taught.
That said, I take the point that a person who claims to be a 'Christian' can go on sinning just as habitually as they did before they 'came to Christ', especially if they haven't made a heart decision to break with sin, but we are clear from quite a number of places in the NT that these people will be disowned by Christ. They will not inherit eternal life. Matt 7:21
Therefore, I hope for the sake of your soul you are willing to re-examine SCRIPTURE, in the presence of God with a view to revising your affiliations while you still have the grace of time to submit your confusion to the Lord for rectification, in line with the apostles' doctrine. You dare not base your hopes of salvation on John Gill's doctrine. Really. He is unsound.
I will understand if you don't want to continue the 'discussion', but please don't go away with the idea that I believe what I've been taught by some other apologist and our clash is simply a clash of third party commentators. Yes, I have sat under sound spiritual teaching, but the truths which I've expounded are also my experience of having embraced the death of Christ so that I would be met by Him on the other side of the tomb, raised to new life on this side of my physical grave.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Repentance, faith, the restoration and healing of the inner man - like circumcision in the heart/the circumcision of Christ - are spiritual milestones which make a spiritual difference to how we are in our relationship with God, forever, if we continue in Him. John Gill's suggestion that Paul 'was sometimes carried captive' to 'the law of sin' after he was regenerate is the exact opposite of Paul's testimony and teaching. In fact, it isn't in the New Testament, anywhere. Paul describes himself and all of us as totally dead in trespasses and sins until believing into Christ and being made alive in Christ.
I don't know if you are looking for an excuse to continue in sin, or you genuinely think the NT teaches what John Gill expounds, but whichever it is, John Gill's exposition bears no resemblance to the truth of the gospel. He is correct that there is a spiritual man and a man of flesh, but we take our identity in Christ from Christ not from looking at the attributes of fallen man. We trust God to make good in our flesh, the power to resist sin and Satan by the Holy Spirit. And He does.
Unless you can begin to believe that the severance of the power of sin is available to you personally, there is no good news in the cross of Christ. The power of God unto salvation is the power of God which enables us to cease from sinning as a lifestyle. If you are... willing to post your own words with an honest heart, I will be happy to continue the discussion, but I feel I have explained all that needs to be said for you to understand the gospel is good news before we die, physically.
I'm sorry for the confusing start of my post! I can really see that now, and that I had one particular thought in my head which I didn't express at all. So, let me start again!
First, I agree that Paul was regenerate when he wrote the Roman epistle. Hopefully, that is completely obvious?
However, I have written three reasonably comprehensive posts to which you have not really replied except when you tried to smooth over all the differences pointed out by saying
As I said in response, our differences are major, and since we are talking about what happened on the cross, there is no ignoring the seriousness of misunderstanding the gospel preached by the apostles.
With reference to Romans 7, within the context of the whole letter, this is the only place where Paul goes into detail of what it was like inside while trying to live under the law - apart from the second half of v 3, and the whole of vv 4 and 6.
The whole chapter is a testimony of how awful it was to live under the law, until the death and resurrection of Christ by which (they - Israelites and Jews) were finally freed from the law, legally, though not experiencing that liberty until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and subsequent revelation as the Lord had promised His disciples.
I am indebted to you for this comment:
This 'condemnation' rested upon all of us until Christ took the death penalty for us.
'Condemnation', and 'Justification', are terminology from the realms of courtrooms and judges. We are no longer condemned if we are in Christ (that is, in His death and His resurrection). By faith we are justified (on God's terms only). Romans 5:1
We can't make up our own terms for justification by faith, as your post attempts to do. I cannot say strongly enough how disappointed I am that you posted such a large quote from John Gill. It is many years since I came across his commentaries being quoted online. Some portions are okay, but this was pure fantasy! It is neither the gospel of the OT nor the gospel of the NT. It is an entirely carnal fabrication which contains not one jot of meaningful good news. Do you realise that what you are preaching doesn't even make sense, far less lead anyone to eternal life?
The contortions required to accommodate John Gill's/your 'exposition' are very far removed from the beauty and simplicity of God's solution to the problem of sin, which is clearly explained by Paul in Romans 6 and 8 and many other sections of his epistles.
Earlier in the thread you were happy to refer to Christ as our Substitute. But now it turns out you want to qualify His most stupendous victory over the power of sin in such as way as to make it inaccessible to believers? I am astonished you think this is good news! The GOOD NEWS is that IN CHRIST the sin which is in us, is put to death. We receive His death by faith, and thus we receive the spiritual power (Holy Spirit) to help us starve our sinful habits out of expression. Out of existence, actually, if we have any intention to live a life which is pleasing to God, now, as the apostles taught.
That said, I take the point that a person who claims to be a 'Christian' can go on sinning just as habitually as they did before they 'came to Christ', especially if they haven't made a heart decision to break with sin, but we are clear from quite a number of places in the NT that these people will be disowned by Christ. They will not inherit eternal life. Matt 7:21
Therefore, I hope for the sake of your soul you are willing to re-examine SCRIPTURE, in the presence of God with a view to revising your affiliations while you still have the grace of time to submit your confusion to the Lord for rectification, in line with the apostles' doctrine. You dare not base your hopes of salvation on John Gill's doctrine. Really. He is unsound.
I will understand if you don't want to continue the 'discussion', but please don't go away with the idea that I believe what I've been taught by some other apologist and our clash is simply a clash of third party commentators. Yes, I have sat under sound spiritual teaching, but the truths which I've expounded are also my experience of having embraced the death of Christ so that I would be met by Him on the other side of the tomb, raised to new life on this side of my physical grave.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Repentance, faith, the restoration and healing of the inner man - like circumcision in the heart/the circumcision of Christ - are spiritual milestones which make a spiritual difference to how we are in our relationship with God, forever, if we continue in Him. John Gill's suggestion that Paul 'was sometimes carried captive' to 'the law of sin' after he was regenerate is the exact opposite of Paul's testimony and teaching. In fact, it isn't in the New Testament, anywhere. Paul describes himself and all of us as totally dead in trespasses and sins until believing into Christ and being made alive in Christ.
I don't know if you are looking for an excuse to continue in sin, or you genuinely think the NT teaches what John Gill expounds, but whichever it is, John Gill's exposition bears no resemblance to the truth of the gospel. He is correct that there is a spiritual man and a man of flesh, but we take our identity in Christ from Christ not from looking at the attributes of fallen man. We trust God to make good in our flesh, the power to resist sin and Satan by the Holy Spirit. And He does.
Unless you can begin to believe that the severance of the power of sin is available to you personally, there is no good news in the cross of Christ. The power of God unto salvation is the power of God which enables us to cease from sinning as a lifestyle. If you are... willing to post your own words with an honest heart, I will be happy to continue the discussion, but I feel I have explained all that needs to be said for you to understand the gospel is good news before we die, physically.
Hi DF - First I want to express my displeasure of your disappointment with my replies concerning your earlier posts. It wasn't that I was avoiding some of them but that, as I indicated before and appears even more so now, our believes concerning what Paul teaches in Rom 7 are too distanced from one another, in which I believe would make it difficult for either of us to express our believes without misunderstanding one another; which is evident by your accusations, of which none in my opinion are true concerning my personal convictions. I don't take offense, because I believe your intent for corresponding is truly for truth's sake, as is mine also.dragonfly said:
As you indicated, you've shared all you could and I the same, and to continue at this time would find both of us repeating ourselves. I was going to respond to the numbered lines above but decided that at this time it wouldn't improve our communications, repeating ourselves. As much as I to enjoy sharing in the Word with others, I still place brotherly-love above all else and I believe it's the same for you. Do you agree that we should give it some time before continuing this subject as I do?
Regardless, Loving You in Christ
Bob
DF - I too owe you gratitude from our communications in this thread. It caused me to look at the opinions from multiple (10) commentators and was surprised (I didn't realize any commentators accepted it as such) to find a couple who concur with your opinion, that Paul was referring to himself in chapter 7 of Romans as an unregenerate.
I wasn't aware of the minor commonality with any commentators concerning this concept, but in all this, I realized that if Paul wasn't describing the conflict of separate natures, it would mean that a regenerate person would no longer have the presence of the old nature (carnal I) to conflict with his new nature (spiritual I); unless I'm in misunderstanding, this would infer the absence of the sinful nature, which teaching is, in my opinion, clearly not in Scripture, which subject would be an entirely separate and exhaustive thread.
Thanks be to God that regardless of our opinion's concerning these things, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."
In light of this I can appreciate your reason for sharing with me in the manner you did. Thanks for the neighborly-love.
God Be Blessed
I wasn't aware of the minor commonality with any commentators concerning this concept, but in all this, I realized that if Paul wasn't describing the conflict of separate natures, it would mean that a regenerate person would no longer have the presence of the old nature (carnal I) to conflict with his new nature (spiritual I); unless I'm in misunderstanding, this would infer the absence of the sinful nature, which teaching is, in my opinion, clearly not in Scripture, which subject would be an entirely separate and exhaustive thread.
Thanks be to God that regardless of our opinion's concerning these things, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."
In light of this I can appreciate your reason for sharing with me in the manner you did. Thanks for the neighborly-love.
God Be Blessed
Similar threads
