Did Charismatic movement injure Church?

[Jane_Doe22]

Do you believe in the deity of Jesus

Yes.

 

[Gary Urban]

Do you believe in the deity of Jesus

The deity of Jesus must be defined.There are many ideas some use three as thier opinion others two working as one .

A clear understanding of the Son of God as to its usage and the son of man as to the distinction must be applied. The father of lies who has no literal body would say it all one in the same and we need a man seen to teach us .

Like the negative example of Peter the serial denier (Mathew 16:22-23) whom the lord used to rebuked giving Jesus the chief apostles sent by the father with words from the father (The Lord rebuke you.. . ) Satan get behind me (walk by faith ) not by sight following Peter

.Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus . That window of opportunity ended when Jesus disappeared never to reappear in the flesh .One outward demonstration was all that was needed to fulfill the Old Testament law. (Isaiah 53)

Mathew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

I am not a Mormon as those of the number comparing one self outwardly to one self commending venerating one another flesh .They are under a hierarchy of men. Venerable men lording it over the faith or understanding of the pew sitters. (Abomination of desolation)

 

[Pearl]

Yes.

:cool:

 

[Pearl]

The deity of Jesus must be defined.

Deity = God. Jesus is God the son. But not the God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It pains me...
But I might have to concede.
"For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God [proclaiming the Father’s own message]; for God gives the [gift of the] Spirit without measure [generously and boundlessly]!" (John3:34).

I have incorrectly assumed that it is Jesus who received the Spirit without measure, but the Scripture is quite clear that God gives the Spirit generally without measure, and that clearly includes us who have been baptised with the Spirit. So, it is clear that the extent the Spirit flows through us is according to the level of our faith.

Wow!!! ;)

 

[Curtis]

Actually "Mormons" believe that Jesus Christ was the 100% divine Son of God before being born of Mary, during His mortal ministry, and after.

Mormons believe in three separate Gods for their trinity - not one God manifest as three persons.

The Mormon Heavenly Father is an exalted man of flesh and blood, who became a God, one of a plethora of other gods who sit together at the council of Gods.

The Mormon Jesus was conceived through sexual intercourse, thus was not born of a virgin, and the Mormon Jesus is Satan’s brother.

 

[Pearl]

Mormons believe in three separate Gods for their trinity - not one God manifest as three persons.

The Mormon Heavenly Father is an exalted man of flesh and blood, who became a God, one of a plethora of other gods who sit together at the council of Gods.

The Mormon Jesus was conceived through sexual intercourse, thus was not born of a virgin, and the Mormon Jesus is Satan’s brother.

I've read stuff like that before when trying to find out about what LDS believe or are taught.

 

[Pearl]

Deity = God. Jesus is God the son. But not the God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.

Not three separate person though.

 

[Curtis]

Destroying the foundation of the doctrine of tongues (prophecy) in the end of the matter exposes those who do seek after signs that cause men to wonder wonder and wonder. . Prophecy for those who believe as the anchor of thier new born agin soul.

The word unknown was added by sign and wonder seekers . Teaching others that God’s tongue which bring His prophecy as senseless a sounds that cause a person to fall back slain in the spirit as evidence and we must seek the private interpretation of senseless sounds is not a Biblical doctrine.

The Bible is God’s interpretation .He warns us of those (antichrists “other teachers”) as false prophets who say we do need a man to teach us .(1 John2) We abide in Him the one teacher as Lord .Again the idea of us seeking after a private interpretation is not of the things of God but is clearly of men

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

No such thing as sign gift .Spiritual gifts that work from within "not seen". . yes .The two words sign and gift are not shown as working together as evidence of anything other than self-edification, self-righteousness (Look I did it) . Prophecy is for the believer sign for those who do not believe prophecy .

Lying signs are for those who seek after signs before they will believe God. They made Jesus into a circus seal like saying . . . . Show us a miracle then we will come to faith.

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

According to the foundation of tongues in Isaiah 28 it teaches us men who refuse to be taught by all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) makes it really clear to who the sign is against. It does not support those who make senseless sounds . yet for all that to show they have no faith as it is written they still refuse to hear prophecy

Believers and prophecy (green)

Sign and wonder seekers (black)

The foundation ( Law of the lord).

Not the law of sense less sounds. Looks to another private interpretation,

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Clearly a sign that exposes those who believe not the tongue of God's prophecy .

Prophecy is the one source of Christen faith as it is written.

Making senseless noises and falling back slain in the spirit mocks the spirit of judgment.

The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:
“Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw Ze’er sham ze’er sham. So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him.

Or like in 1 Corinthians 14 the companion verse Yet for all tha they refuse to believe prohecy as a sign against them

Isiah 28 continuing 13 So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds" to them:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.

Prophecy given in church and interpreted is not a sign of anything. It’s a message from God to a congregation.

Your claim about seeking a sign is bogus.

Jesus rebuked the unbelievers who mocked Him and demanded He perform a sign to prove who He is, and he called them an evil generation.

This has nothing to do with the signs THAT FOLLOW THOSE WHO BELIEVE, per Jesus’ own words that laying hands on the sick and healing them are SIGNS that follow them. Mark 16.

No believer seeks a sign to prove anything - the signs FOLLOW their belief.

Your claims are simply wrong.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Mormons believe in three separate Gods for their trinity - not one God manifest as three persons.

The Mormon Heavenly Father is an exalted man of flesh and blood, who became a God, one of a plethora of other gods who sit together at the council of Gods.

The Mormon Jesus was conceived through sexual intercourse, thus was not born of a virgin, and the Mormon Jesus is Satan’s brother.

Actual “Mormon” here.

LDS Christians and Creedal Christians both believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different divine persons in one God. For example, Christ isn’t talking to Himself while He’s praying, He’s talking to the Father. Christ was divine before being born of virgin Mary, during His mortal life, and still is.

There is difference in how the belief of how three persons are one God: LDS Christians believing through unity, Creedal Christians through a shared substance.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Actually "Mormons" believe that Jesus Christ was the 100% divine Son of God before being born of Mary, during His mortal ministry, and after.

OK. I'm probably crossing my wires with the JWs.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Wow!!! ;)

I had a bit of a chuckle with the Lord after that. Just shows how memory can play tricks.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Actually "Mormons" believe that Jesus Christ was the 100% divine Son of God before being born of Mary, during His mortal ministry, and after.

Here is a bit of useful information from Wikipedia:

"Tritheism (from Greek τριθεΐα, "three divinity"[1]) is a nontrinitarian Christian heresy in which the unity of the Trinity and thus monotheism are denied. It represents more a "possible deviation" than any actual school of thought positing three separate deities.[2] It was usually "little more than a hostile label"[3] applied to those who emphasized the individuality of each hypostasis or divine person—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—over the unity of the Trinity as a whole.[1] The accusation was especially popular between the 3rd and 7th centuries AD.[1]

Though members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would probably not self-identify as tritheist, some critics of Mormonism claim that it is tritheistic or polytheistic because it teaches that the Godhead is a council of three distinct deities perfectly one in purpose, unity and mission, but nevertheless separate and distinct beings.[7][8]"

This has given me a better understanding of how Mormonism views the trinity. But I am keeping away from debating the issue, because that would be going off the topic of the thread. But you were right in correcting me about a misconception about how Mormons view the divinity of Christ and so my answer would be appropriate here.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Here is a bit of useful information from Wikipedia:

"Tritheism (from Greek τριθεΐα, "three divinity"[1]) is a nontrinitarian Christian heresy in which the unity of the Trinity and thus monotheism are denied. It represents more a "possible deviation" than any actual school of thought positing three separate deities.[2] It was usually "little more than a hostile label"[3] applied to those who emphasized the individuality of each hypostasis or divine person—Father, Son and Holy Spirit—over the unity of the Trinity as a whole.[1] The accusation was especially popular between the 3rd and 7th centuries AD.[1]

Though members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would probably not self-identify as tritheist, some critics of Mormonism claim that it is tritheistic or polytheistic because it teaches that the Godhead is a council of three distinct deities perfectly one in purpose, unity and mission, but nevertheless separate and distinct beings.[7][8]"

This has given me a better understanding of how Mormonism views the trinity. But I am keeping away from debating the issue, because that would be going off the topic of the thread. But you were right in correcting me about a misconception about how Mormons view the divinity of Christ and so my answer would be appropriate here.

Critics of both Creedal Christains and LDS Christians hostilely use the "tritheism" label, rather than understanding a different view of one God. Honestly, the accusation gets really old.

I am glad I could clarify for you that LDS Christians do indeed believe in the divinity of Christ :)

 

[Paul Christensen]

Critics of both Creedal Christains and LDS Christians hostilely use the "tritheism" label, rather than understanding a different view of one God. Honestly, the accusation gets really old.

I am glad I could clarify for you that LDS Christians do indeed believe in the divinity of Christ :)

I think the article clarifies what you are saying. You will see that it says that "some critics of Mormonism..."etc. The reality is that because we can only see many things about the nature of God through the wrong end of the telescope, we can only make educated guesses about the nature of the trinity, so your view of it is as good as any, and in reality, not absolutely crucial to whether a person is saved or not.

 

[amadeus]

We are told to pray according to God's will and we can only do that if we sit down and ask him what he wants us to pray. Sometimes just praying in tongues without the understand and sometimes as he puts his own thoughts into our spirits. Before we pray we need to listen.

Yes our dear missing sister here @Miss Hepburn manifested to me by her posts the importance of listening carefully to God. When it is time to pray it must also be time to listen... to God!

 

[Gary Urban]

Prophecy given in church and interpreted is not a sign of anything. It’s a message from God to a congregation.

Your claim about seeking a sign is bogus.

Jesus rebuked the unbelievers who mocked Him and demanded He perform a sign to prove who He is, and he called them an evil generation.

This has nothing to do with the signs THAT FOLLOW THOSE WHO BELIEVE, per Jesus’ own words that laying hands on the sick and healing them are SIGNS that follow them. Mark 16.

No believer seeks a sign to prove anything - the signs FOLLOW their belief.

Your claims are simply wrong.

The sign is clearly against those who believe not according to 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 looking to the law the foundation of the tongues doctrine Isaiah 28 .

1 Corinthians 14: 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

They called the apostles drunks because God hid the understanding from them as he promised in Isaiah 28 .

The promise of Joel had come revealed by the promised reformation. Men and woman from the all nations sent out as apostles declaring the tongue of God, the gospel of our salvation.

Acts 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The sign is clearly against those who believe not, according to 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 as to the law the foundation of the tongues doctrine Isaiah 28 .

Read slowly prayerfully comparring it to other portions that speak of the same doctrine (tongues)

1 Corinthians 14: 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The promise of Joel the witness of God had come revealed by the promised reformation. Men and woman from the all nation sent out as apostles declaring the tongue of God the gospel of our salvation

Many from my experence ignore the work of God during the first century reformation. . the abomination of desolation (kings in Israel) As a hierarchy of athiest men. . They as a abomniation made sola scriptura the witness of God to no effect .So that they could rather do whtsoever comes from thier own mouth says.. "I heard it through the grapevine" oral traditons of faithless men (fathers kings princes and queens . . . who clearly refused to serve a unseen God as King of kings and Lord of lords. ( Jerimiah 44:15-17) as womens rights creating their own goddess Queen of heaven seperate from that of the men, Kings in Isreal

Sola scriptura as it is written restored the proper form of Government .The Father and the Son. Not Kings and Queens( human goverment)

Beleivers serve our God as King of Kings not seen Him reigning in the hearts of the son of God on earth. Therefore reversing the damage that was performed in 1 Samuel 8.. . at the time of refomation (Hebrews 9)

1 Samauel 8: 4-7 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves (not called by God) together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.(abomination of desolation) But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Just as Adam and Eve (mankind) in the garden they refused to walk by faith the unsen eternal, the glory of God departed

Again prophecy, the tongue of God is the one witness God has spoken from heaven. It is the interpretation of God not one word is of any private interpretation or personal commentary by mankind .

1 John 5:8-10 King James Version (KJV)And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. No outward signs were needed.

We are warned in 1 John 2:27-28 of them who say we need a to interpret or teach us what the Spirit says. The idea of making a senseless sound to wonder after is no exceptions.

Yes unseen signs used metaphors like the parable Mark 16 unseen to the eye signs they do follow that one has believed .We do not seek after one in order to believe we have the witness of God...no need to self-edify as self righteoussness .

I have known some I had worked with that prayed for months until one day sounds came from their mouth without meaning. Their idea to make sounds without meaning came from somewhere, someone?

Mark 16: 16-18 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Above is the casting out of demons by the witness of God’s tongue the gospel .The believers’ new tongue. They shall take up the lying witness of a brood of vipers (Pharisees with Sadducees) and the false prophesy as poison it will not harm them if they lay their hands to signify the will. . Christ can empower them to believe.

Many in attempt to self-edify oneself literally have drank poison and they died proving all the metaphors in that parable follow and not something to seek after. I did it. . it proves something.

Many ignore the outcome of the "first century reformation" making it to no effect. . the abomination of desolation (kings in Israel) As a hierarchy of men. . seing no man could serve two teaching masters it made sola scriptura the witness of God to no effect .Sola scriptura, as it is written. The refomation restored the proper form of Government .The Father and the Son working as one God . Not Kings and Queens. Our God, as King of Kings not seen does reign in the hearts of the son of God on earth. Therefore reversing the damage that was performed in 1 Samuel 8.

Again prophecy the tongue of God is the one witness God has spoken from heaven. It is the interpretation of God not one word is a private interpretation or personal commentary of mankind .

We are warned in 1 John 2 of them who say we need man seen to interpret or teach us what the Spirit says. The idea of making a senseless sound to wonder after is no exceptions.

I have known some I had worked with that prayed for months until one day sounds came from their mouth without meaning. Their idea to make sounds without meaning and faling back slain in the spirit came from somewhere, someone.?

 

[amadeus]

It pains me...
But I might have to concede.
"For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God [proclaiming the Father’s own message]; for God gives the [gift of the] Spirit without measure [generously and boundlessly]!" (John3:34).

I have incorrectly assumed that it is Jesus who received the Spirit without measure, but the Scripture is quite clear that God gives the Spirit generally without measure, and that clearly includes us who have been baptised with the Spirit. So, it is clear that the extent the Spirit flows through us is according to the level of our faith.

The level of faith, yes... and when any of us is quenching the Holy Spirit, our faith has dropped essentially then to zero or...?

What a mighty God we serve? Let us not quench the Spirit of God in us!

 

[Gary Urban]

Actual “Mormon” here.

LDS Christians and Creedal Christians both believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three different divine persons in one God. For example, Christ isn’t talking to Himself while He’s praying, He’s talking to the Father. Christ was divine before being born of virgin Mary, during His mortal life, and still is.

There is difference in how the belief of how three persons are one God: LDS Christians believing through unity, Creedal Christians through a shared substance.

I would offer there is a difference between the two divine immutable attributes of God who is not a man as our one divine supernatural God who remains without father or mother beginning of Sprit life or end thereof. . The “dynamic dual” seems to work best to reveal the work of two (one faith as a work or labor of their combined love) Two is the witness of God .Three denotes the end of a matter in parables

Not sure what you meant by LDS Christians believing through unity, Creedal Christians through a shared substance?



.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I would offer there is a difference between the two divine immutable attributes of God who is not a man as our one divine supernatural God who remains without father or mother beginning of Sprit life or end thereof. . The “dynamic dual” seems to work best to reveal the work of two (one faith as a work or labor of their combined love) Two is the witness of God .Three denotes the end of a matter in parables
.

There's not really a difference there: both LDS Christians and Creedal Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit have always existed. The Christ was physically born of virgin Mary, and that the Father is His Father.

Not sure what you meant by LDS Christians believing through unity, Creedal Christians through a shared substance?

Quoting the Athanasian Creed:
"...God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ..."

That is not a statement of belief for LDS Christians. Rather, it's believed that the Father, Son, and Spirit are three persons in one God through unity, as expressed in John 17. They have one purpose, goal, goodness, glory, will, to honor the Son is to honor the Father, etc. They are unified as one.