Did Charismatic movement injure Church?

[Amazed@grace]

I am not going to discuss this any further because I wasn't there. If people want to attack Bethel, that is up to them. I want no part in it.

No intent to offend. I'm not backing nor condemning Bethel itself.
And as stated before, I don't believe the Charasmatic movement can be judged by Bethel's example either.
Thank you for your participation in my posts.:)

 

[Amazed@grace]

Why did the black guy speaking have to wear a white sheet around his shoulders?

Are you referring to the person holding the staff?

 

[Pathfinder7]

No intent to offend. I'm not backing nor condemning Bethel itself.
And as stated before, I don't believe the Charasmatic movement can be judged by Bethel's example either.
Thank you for your participation in my posts.:)

"I don't believe the Charismatic movement can be judged by.."
- Good point.
----
My experience with the Charismatic Movement started...in 1970's.
----
There are different views/perspectives... among spirit-filled Christians. (Pentecostals/Charismatics)
- Concerning spiritual gifts, issues, etc..
- That is why..many 'camps/streams' in the movement.

 

[teamventure]

I don't disagree with God.

God disagrees with incantations and using a staff like Gandolf which you were defending so ya, you disagree with God.

 

[CharismaticLady]

God says a lot more to me than is written in the bible. He speaks to me in a variety of ways and shows me new things in a number of ways. I would worry if I wasn't hearing from God in those other ways.

I certainly would miss it. AFTER 30 years of church attendance and never receiving an answer to prayer, I finally experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit and heard God's voice for the first time; and thereafter every prayer was answered for the last 44 years because He taught me immediately to wait for WHAT to pray.

 

[CharismaticLady]

God disagrees with incantations and using a staff like Gandolf which you were defending so ya, you disagree with God.

The staff may have been like that for the actress, but for me it would have been like Moses' and would not disagree with God. I doubt that the actress even attends that church, but was just visiting.

 

[teamventure]

The staff may have been like that for the actress, but for me it would have been like Moses' and would not disagree with God. I doubt that the actress even attends that church, but was just visiting.

Wow, you're in straight deniel.
You need to listen to the Holy Spirit
What these Bethel people have been doing are NOT in tune with the Holy Spirit.

 

[teamventure]

The staff may have been like that for the actress, but for me it would have been like Moses' and would not disagree with God. I doubt that the actress even attends that church, but was just visiting.

You know who else used staffs in Egypt other than Moses & Aaron? Magicians & Sorcerers.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Wow, you're in straight deniel.
You need to listen to the Holy Spirit
What these Bethel people have been doing are NOT in tune with the Holy Spirit.

You have a mean religious spirit so there is no way you can correctly discern if Bethel is doing anything against God or not.

 

[Curtis]

God the author is the interpreter it’s glaringly obvious. Not the witness of men as private interpretations.

You forgot to look to the foundation of the doctrine of the tongues of God called prophecy (Isaiah 28) .It is the law spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14: 21-22

The Holy Spirit as the tongue of God brings His interpretation .If its "unknown" its unknown to those in whom the sign points to. . they are the ones that make senseless sounds and fall backward indicating they are slain in the spirit.

I can offer it again

Note. . .Men who believe prophecy or the tongue of God ( green)

Note . . .men who have no faith needed to believe prophecy ( purple)

Note . . the law not subject to change as after an oral tradition (red)

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law ((Isaiah 28)) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Who are tongues a sign for? (it’s glaringly obvious) Which ones does the Spirit of judgement apply to as those who do fall back slain in the Spirit . Green or purple? Jesus said. . yet for all that will they not hear me,

That’s not even close to a reasonable interpretation.

Paul wrote let two or three give a prophecy, then pray THAT ONE INTERPRET IT, and if there’s no one with an interpretation, they must remain silent.

The HS gives the unknown tongue prophecy, and gives the interpretation THROUGH believers.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

And here’s scholarship on the passage you keep citing:

With men of other tongues ... - This passage, where it occurs in Isaiah, means, that God would teach the rebellious and refractory Jews submission to himself, by punishing them amidst a people of another language, by removing them to a land - the land of Chaldea - where they would hear only a language that to them would be unintelligible and barbarous. Yet, notwithstanding this discipline, they would be still, to some extent, a rebellious people. The passage in Isaiah has no reference to the miraculous gift of tongues. and cannot have been used by the apostle as containing any intimation that such miraculous gifts would be imparted. It seems to have been used by Paul, because the “words” which occurred in Isaiah would “appropriately express” the idea which he wished to convey (see the note at Mat 1:23), that God would make use of foreign languages for some “valuable purpose.” But he by no means intimates that Isaiah had any such reference; nor does he quote this as a fulfillment of the prophecy; nor does he mean to say, that God would accomplish “the same purpose” by the use of foreign languages, which was contemplated in the passage in Isaiah.

 

[Paul Christensen]

To be clear, do you believe in Nestorianism or Kenosis?

cc: @Paul Christensen

The sense of the Philippians reference is that although Jesus became human, He remained God. The Scripture says that He was God in the flesh. He did not stop being God, but for our sakes, He laid aside the privileges of His divinity and became as a man. The Scripture says that He received the Holy Spirit without measure, whereas we receive a measure of the Spirit according to our faith. Also, if Jesus was just a mere man and nothing else until His resurrection, as the Mormons believe, then He could not have taken the sin of the whole world from Adam right through to the last born human being before His second coming, and suffered the eternal wrath of God in just three short hours while He hung on the Cross. Only God could have achieved that.

The notion that we can do everything that Jesus could do on earth is just sheer nonsense. He calmed a storm, fed 5000 people with five loaves and two fish, and walked on water. When He said we could do the works He did, those miraculous deeds were not included. When He did those things, He did them as God and not just as an ordinary human. When the crowd came to arrest Him, He made the same statement as God did to Moses: "I AM." That whole crowd over near 1000 people all fell backwards at just those two words. This was to show that these people were coming to arrest God as well as the human Jesus. On another occasion He told the Jews, "Before Abraham, I AM." It is interesting that those Jews didn't fall backwards - because He was not demonstrating His divinity then, just describing that not only did He exist before Abraham, but unlike Abraham, He is eternal and has no beginning.

According to the Apostle John in his Gospel, Jesus made it clear that He and His Father are one, and those who have seen Him have seen the Father. What He was saying to them was that He is God, just as the Father is God.

Historic and Traditional Pentecostals maintained the sound doctrine of the Nicene Creed and the Westminster Confession of Faith, which are the foundations of Protestant Christianity. They added the continuation and manifestation of the ministries and gifts of the Spirit to that foundation. If you read "The Foundations of Pentecostal Theology" by Duffield and Van Cleave, you will see that.

The problem with the development of the modern Charismatic movement is that the prominent independent branches have departed from that sound Reformed foundation and have introduced doctrines based on "new" revelations that are not found in the New Testament. This is because independent Charismatic Bible teachers can teach whatever they please and justify their teaching by maintaining that "the Holy Spirit told me". This is because they are accountable to no one for what they are teaching, mainly because they have made internal "revelation" of what they call "the Spirit" (whatever that spirit really is) more important than the written Scripture.

The difference between the traditional Pentecostal whose doctrine is based on sound Reformed theology resulting from careful and comprehensive study of the Scriptures and the writing of the faithful Church Fathers, and modern independent Charismatics (such as Bethel, Hillsong, Copeland, and others like them) is the latter are deciding for themselves based on their own ambitious desires to increase their religious empires, rather than the former, who are remaining faithful to God's voice in the written Scriptures.

This fulfils the Scripture where it says that some will depart from sound doctrine and will heap up teachers for themselves, having itching ears. And that there will be those who will be blown around by every wind of doctrine. Even when I was a young believer in the late 1960s, the attitude in the AOG church where I belonged at that time, was that the written Scriptures were the dead letter, and that we should listen to the Spirit's voice rather than study the written Scriptures.

The trouble is that if we put the written Scriptures aside in favour of an internal "voice", we can't guarantee from which spirit the voice is coming from.

 

[Curtis]

To be clear, do you believe in Nestorianism or Kenosis?

cc: @Paul Christensen

To be clear I believe the Bible plainly states that to be born a man and humble servant, He first EMPTIED HIMSELF, in Philippians 2:6-7.

How that’s possible I don’t have to understand- all I need to understand is that Jesus divested Himself of the use of His divine power when He emptied Himself, thus didn’t do miracles or start His ministry until He received the Holy Spirit at baptism, and He did all His works by the anointing of the HS and Dunamis power. Acts 10:38, and became an example of what His followers can do when they also receive the same HS Dunamis power Jesus had. John 14:12.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

[teamventure]

You have a mean religious spirit so there is no way you can correctly discern if Bethel is doing anything against God or not.

No one has ever accused me of a religious spirit but most of the people in this thread know you lack discernment. You are the common denominator.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The Scripture says that He received the Holy Spirit without measure, whereas we receive a measure of the Spirit according to our faith.

I need the references please. It's the middle of the night and I'll read the rest tomorrow.

Without the references I don't believe He received more than we can as born again Christians. But I could be wrong so need those references. I believe Jesus is God, but emptied Himself of the glories - the omnis. And we don't have those. And after His ministry asked that the Father restore to Him the glory He shared with the Father since the beginning. But Jesus does give us some glory now as we are glorified. But I think that is more the nature of God rather than His all powerfulness.

 

[CharismaticLady]

To be clear I believe the Bible plainly states that to be born a man and humble servant, He first EMPTIED HIMSELF, in Philippians 2:6-7.

How that’s possible I don’t have to understand- all I need to understand is that Jesus divested Himself of the use of His divine power when He emptied Himself, thus didn’t do miracles or start His ministry until He received the Holy Spirit at baptism, and He did all His works by the anointing of the HS and Dunamis power. Acts 10:38, and became an example of what His followers can do when they also receive the same HS Dunamis power Jesus had. John 14:12.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

I agree, except that Jesus was conceived with the seed of the Father and why He was sinless. Our receiving the Holy Spirit takes away our sin also. 1 John 3:9. The second baptism for us is when we can receive the gifts of the Spirit that Jesus used in His ministry and received at His baptism.

 

[CharismaticLady]

No one has ever accused me of a religious spirit but most of the people in this thread know you lack discernment. You are the common denominator.

Your meanness shows a spirit other than the Holy Spirit. I'm done talking to you and your vile accusations against faithful ministries. It seems you are a lost case and should just go on ignore. Bye.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I need the references please. It's the middle of the night and I'll read the rest tomorrow.

Without the references I don't believe He received more than we can as born again Christians. But I could be wrong so need those references. I believe Jesus is God, but emptied Himself of the glories - the omnis. And we don't have those. And after His ministry asked that the Father restore to Him the glory He shared with the Father since the beginning. But Jesus does give us some glory now as we are glorified. But I think that is more the nature of God rather than His all powerfulness.

It pains me...
But I might have to concede.
"For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God [proclaiming the Father’s own message]; for God gives the [gift of the] Spirit without measure [generously and boundlessly]!" (John3:34).

I have incorrectly assumed that it is Jesus who received the Spirit without measure, but the Scripture is quite clear that God gives the Spirit generally without measure, and that clearly includes us who have been baptised with the Spirit. So, it is clear that the extent the Spirit flows through us is according to the level of our faith.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Also, if Jesus was just a mere man and nothing else until His resurrection, as the Mormons believe

Actually "Mormons" believe that Jesus Christ was the 100% divine Son of God before being born of Mary, during His mortal ministry, and after.

 

[Pearl]

Actually "Mormons" believe that Jesus Christ was the 100% divine Son of God before being born of Mary, during His mortal ministry, and after.

Do you believe in the deity of Jesus

 

[Gary Urban]

That’s not even close to a reasonable interpretation.

Paul wrote let two or three give a prophecy, then pray THAT ONE INTERPRET IT, and if there’s no one with an interpretation, they must remain silent.

The HS gives the unknown tongue prophecy, and gives the interpretation THROUGH believers.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

And here’s scholarship on the passage you keep citing:

With men of other tongues ... - This passage, where it occurs in Isaiah, means, that God would teach the rebellious and refractory Jews submission to himself, by punishing them amidst a people of another language, by removing them to a land - the land of Chaldea - where they would hear only a language that to them would be unintelligible and barbarous. Yet, notwithstanding this discipline, they would be still, to some extent, a rebellious people. The passage in Isaiah has no reference to the miraculous gift of tongues. and cannot have been used by the apostle as containing any intimation that such miraculous gifts would be imparted. It seems to have been used by Paul, because the “words” which occurred in Isaiah would “appropriately express” the idea which he wished to convey (see the note at Mat 1:23), that God would make use of foreign languages for some “valuable purpose.” But he by no means intimates that Isaiah had any such reference; nor does he quote this as a fulfillment of the prophecy; nor does he mean to say, that God would accomplish “the same purpose” by the use of foreign languages, which was contemplated in the passage in Isaiah.

Destroying the foundation of the doctrine of tongues (prophecy) in the end of the matter exposes those who do seek after signs that cause men to wonder wonder and wonder. . Prophecy for those who believe as the anchor of thier new born agin soul.

The word unknown was added by sign and wonder seekers . Teaching others that God’s tongue which bring His prophecy as senseless a sounds that cause a person to fall back slain in the spirit as evidence and we must seek the private interpretation of senseless sounds is not a Biblical doctrine.

The Bible is God’s interpretation .He warns us of those (antichrists “other teachers”) as false prophets who say we do need a man to teach us .(1 John2) We abide in Him the one teacher as Lord .Again the idea of us seeking after a private interpretation is not of the things of God but is clearly of men

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

No such thing as sign gift .Spiritual gifts that work from within "not seen". . yes .The two words sign and gift are not shown as working together as evidence of anything other than self-edification, self-righteousness (Look I did it) . Prophecy is for the believer sign for those who do not believe prophecy .

Lying signs are for those who seek after signs before they will believe God. They made Jesus into a circus seal like saying . . . . Show us a miracle then we will come to faith.

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

According to the foundation of tongues in Isaiah 28 it teaches us men who refuse to be taught by all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) makes it really clear to who the sign is against. It does not support those who make senseless sounds . yet for all that to show they have no faith as it is written they still refuse to hear prophecy

Believers and prophecy (green)

Sign and wonder seekers (black)

The foundation ( Law of the lord).

Not the law of sense less sounds. Looks to another private interpretation,

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Clearly a sign that exposes those who believe not the tongue of God's prophecy .

Prophecy is the one source of Christen faith as it is written.

Making senseless noises and falling back slain in the spirit mocks the spirit of judgment.

The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:
“Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw Ze’er sham ze’er sham. So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him.

Or like in 1 Corinthians 14 the companion verse Yet for all tha they refuse to believe prohecy as a sign against them

Isiah 28 continuing 13 So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds" to them:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.