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Did God Create Evil?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by FHII, Dec 3, 2011.

  1. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Did God create evil? We have this verse:

    Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (KJV)

    It is pretty strong evidence. Yet some want to say that this verse really means God created calamities like earthquakes. The problem is, it doesn’t fit in context. The Lord made light, and darkness. That could mean the Sun and “the absence of sun” I suppose, but most of the time the Lord spoke, it was spiritual light and darkness he was talking about. Furthermore, this verse wasn’t in Genesis 1, when he was creating literal light and darkness, and literal earth and space. It is in Isaiah when he’s talking about righteousness vs. unrighteousness.

    He also said he created peace and also evil. Or should that be “calamity in the form of natural disasters”? He is talking about war: an earthquake is not war. Since he was talking about war (and please read the presiding verses) it isn’t talking about beautiful spring mornings vs. an earthquake, violent thunderstorm and such. Yes, the Lord creates them too, but in proper context. He’s talking about peace vs. war or the Big E evil.

    It’s not the only verse though, that says the Lord created evil.

    Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
    Let’s break this down. He made ALL THINGS for himself. We can see that from John 1:3 as well:

    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    Second, he even says he made the wicked for the day of evil. Ok, he didn’t say here he made evil or even the day of evil. But he made the wicked, and he made them for himself. But it does say he made all things… That would include the day of evil and the evil.

    It just doesn’t seem right saying “The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of earthquakes and thunderstorms.

    Here is another one:

    Amo 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?


    There was evil in the city and who was responsible? The Lord.

    If you are going to say that “evil” is the absence of “good”, then there are many other problems to contend with. First, God, I assume, created the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. It does not say – nor does it make sense to say – the Lord created the tree of knowledge of Good and the knowledge of the absence of Good.

    If I have knowledge of good, and the knowledge of the absence of good, how can I have absence of Good? It really doesn’t make sense. It wasn’t like they got the knowledge and then forgot it, either.

    Genesis 3:22 says they knew good and evil. If evil is the absence of Good, then they didn’t know anything. But they knew good and evil.Sticking with that, let’s look at Deu 1:39

    Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    If evil is the absence of good, it’s redundant to say they had no knowledge of good, and false to say they had no knowledge of evil. If they knew evil, then they would have no knowledge of good, but they didn’t know evil. If they knew good, they wouldn’t have knowledge of evil.
    No, I don’t like these deep philosophical discussions either, but that’s what it takes sometimes if you are not going to simply accept Isa 45:7 says what it says without saying, “well sometimes evil means natural disasters!”

    Some more verses with short comments:

    Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    Well, in the human mindset, that was pretty stupid! It’s like the Simpsons episode where they had a “God Gun”. Why bother having it? Why did God even bother including “the knowledge of evil”? I’ll give you the answer: Because if he didn’t there was no reason for him to already die some 6000 years later. Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world, which means, before God even planted that tree.

    Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

    It doesn’t say the devil or even Lucifer sent it. God sent the evil spirit!

    1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

    From Who? The LORD! He also sent David with his harp and music to fix the problem.

    1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

    It puts a new twist on “God cannot lie”. No, he can’t, nor did he… He sent someone else to do it. God sent a lying spirit and spoke earthquakes (I mean “evil”) concerning them.

    Mic 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.
    God devised evil… It’s a good one for those who believe we have free will.

    Mic 1:12 For the inhabitant of Maroth waited carefully for good: but evil came down from the LORD unto the gate of Jerusalem.

    Evil came from Lucifer, Satan and the Obama Administration via the Bush Administration. NO! It came from the Lord!

    Amo 9:4 And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.
    Well, that sounds preplanned to me!

    Dan 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
    The Lord watched upon the evil, and BROUGHT it.

    He didn’t bring the absence of good. That would be holding something back. Furthermore, this work God did (and it was a righteous work) God brought it!

    You may liken good to evil as heat to cold. It is said that cold is the absence of heat. Maybe that’s in Pro 10:34 or somewhere…. But I can’t find it. Nor can I find in the Bible that Evil is the absence of Good. They are on opposite ends of the stick, but that does not mean that evil is nonexistent. The Lord could not have brought something that didn’t exist, nor could he create a knowledge of something non existent or absent.

    Likewise, God created Satan, and he did not create him as some wonderful, beautiful, perfect being who went bad. That would suggest that God created a faulty being. God screwed up! Some will say, “God gave us free will and Satan had free will!” Well then, Satan wasn’t a murderer and a liar from the beginning, then. Was he? But the Bible says he was, and with foreknowledge, God created Satan… Knowing and promising what he would do.
    I have a verse that says Jesus always existed and was slain before all this happened. The cure was sent before the disease!
     
  2. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I appreciate your post, it is well laid out and I am looking forward to researching a response soon - for now, I am off to bed
     
  3. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I've seen this debated around and around in circles by some.

    Because many refuse to look at the Gen.1:1-9 Scripture more closely, and other Scripture like Rom.8, 2 Pet.3, Jer.4, etc., some are totally unaware that the time of Satan's first rebellion against God was not at any time during this present creation, but was even before God's creation of Adam. By the time God formed Adam in His Eden, Satan as "that old serpent" (Rev.12:9) was already at work as the adversary.

    Our Lord Jesus and His Apostles declared the time when God ordained His Salvation Kingdom to come and those chosen to serve was before the foundations of this world (Matt.25:34; John 17; Eph.1:4, etc.). That means before the creation of this world also, and once again points back to the time of Satan's rebellion as before that even.

    So when reading some of those verses you posted, this perspective has to be considered time-frame wise. One of the reasons is because God said in Ezekiel 28 that He DID originally create that cherub that covereth (Satan) "perfect in his ways" until iniquity was found in him. Not only that, but God pronounced that cherub's death sentence in that same Ezek.28 chapter in verse 18.

    This reveals that any 'evil' God allows for THIS PRESENT world is linked only to the time AFTER Satan had rebelled against Him. And that does NOT make God the author of evil, but reveals that Satan is the originator, and author of evil. This is why Apostle John said that the devil sinned from the beginning, pointing to first sin actually being with Satan's rebellion of old (1 John 3:8). That would mean also, AFTER Satan had rebelled is when God ordained the wicked for the day of evil, and not before.

    This is one of the reasons why the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is symbolic of Satan himself, because God did originally create him 'good', but he then did 'evil' when he rebelled in coveting God's Throne that was originally his job to protect.

    If one refuses to address the time of old when Satan drew a third of the angels in rebellion against God, then they will keep making the mistake of assigning the origin of evil to God, instead of to the devil and his angels that rebelled with him.
     
  4. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    All things were created by Him for Him. That includes everything "all things." My human reasoning is not ample to understand why. His ways are not my ways, His thoughts are not my thoughts.
    I submit to the sovereignty of God, knowing I am made righteous through Him.

    Understand God is the only good. Matthew 19:17 Luke 18:19
    That means all the rest are evil, even if we are just a little evil.
    I can explain it this way, If God was a color it would be white for white is void of all color, everybody else are shades of grey, the darker your soul, or evil your ways, the blacker your shade.
    God wants all of His creation to return to Him, but can not change His color, for God never changes. By the blood of Christ we are made pure or white.
     
  5. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I think some of you believe I am trying to claim that evil doesn't exist! Evil most certainly exists and it separates us from God - all I am saying is that evil is not a separate force. Instead it is the lack of good.
     
  6. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Just because the mere 'idea' of evil could happen when Satan first rebelled against God still does not mean God was its author.

    Obviously, God created Satan and the angels with free will, and not as robots. And as written, all things were created for God's pleasure! (Rev.4:11)

    So how can any believer on Jesus Christ The Saviour be just in saying that God created evil for His pleasure???

    The specific sin Satan committed against God was with coveting God's Throne, wanting to be God in His Place. Satan rebelled against God in doing that which began the first 'sin' in the beginning. FROM THAT SIN WHICH SATAN COMMITTED is where the ORIGIN of evil first began. That's why GOD is not, and was not, the author of that evil, not even by giving Satan and his angels the free will to even be able... to do that.

    P.S. - In Gen.3 when God placed flaming cherubim to guard the way to the tree of life in His Garden, that reveals God created specific Heavenly beings to protect His Throne (the specific beasts in Rev.4) that have no free will like He created Satan with. The whole purpose of our having been created with free will instead as robots never able to make our own choice to love God, is because real love can only come by an individual's choice to give it, and not by robotic force. God doesn't want to make us love Him, He wants us to love Him of our own choice, which makes free will necessary to do that.
     
  7. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    First off, it is a very good point you made about when Satan fell. I am fully aware of when he did, and agree with you on this particular point. However, your theory has several things that should be addressed:
    1. Whether or not Satan is the originator, or God is, it all comes back to God. God made Satan, and I do not believe he made a mistake. Perhaps Satan and God were good buddies for millions of what we would call years until Satan’s rebellion. However, that seed was in him the whole time, and God put it there.
    2. Your theory doesn’t explain why God said he created evil, brought evil and sent evil and lying spirits. Satan is not credited for that, even though he may have had a hand in it (and I believe he did).
    3. God said he made all things were made by him, and without him nothing was made (John 1:2).
    4. You are making the same mistake many make when they call Satan “Lucifer”. Eze 28 is not referring to Satan, but the Prince of Tyre. This was not Satan. As with Lucifer (who was most likely Nebuchanezzer), the scripture points out this individual was a man – flesh and blood. I agree Satan had a hand in it, and it runs parallel to the actual fall of Satan, but nonetheless we are talking about an earthly kingdom and a man. I understand the keywords like “cherub” and “Eden”. These do not make him (the Prince of Tyre) Satan. This being so, the charge that Satan was made perfect and fell on his own accord is in question.

    Finally, I’d like to bring up one more account in the Bible which I forgot. Who attacked Job? Satan, yes, but who took the credit? Please read verse 2:3, and you will see God accused Satan of moving HIM (God) against Job. Absolutely, Satan did all the dirty work, but God took the credit.
     
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I added a Post Script to my last post about what God actually DID place in operation that would allow Satan to do what he did. It's called free will choice.

    I know of no one created with free will that can be justified in rebelling against God. It would be like one with free will that abuses that freedom saying to God why they rebelled, "Well, Heavenly Father, You created me with freedom to make my own choice, so it's really Your fault, since You created all things."

    When our Heavenly Father created Satan and the angels with free will, that put CHOICE and RESPONSIBILITY with how to use that freedom upon the INDIVIDUAL, and not upon God Himself, even as it still... is today.

    Another P.S. - What kind of Trust and Love does God reveal by having created Satan good originally and giving him free will? It reveals a gift of 'power' that comes with the choice of how to use that freedom. Throughout world history we can see how many born through woman's womb have abused that freedom, also as that abuse of freedom of choice still is happening today.
     
  9. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    And as written, all things were created for God's pleasure! (Rev.4:11)
    What part about "all things" don't you understand?

    Isaiah 53:10 (NASB) But the Lord was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to greif; ...
    What makes you judge over God and His pleasures?

    Just because the mere 'idea' of evil could happen when Satan first rebelled against God still does not mean God was its author.
    I agree. Romans 8:28

    This is God's story we live in. God is the creator of all things. Evil is a part of His story.

    Just a thought, If God didn't create evil, what would give Him authority over it?
     
  10. Shirley

    Shirley New Member

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    God is light and in him is no darkness at all! I believe that when he brings evil it is by removing his protection.
     
  11. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    I see validity in this.
    As in Job, Satan asked God to remove His hedge of protection. Job 1:9-11
    Also the psalmist describes God turning His face from him. Psalm 30:7

    Isaiah 45:9-10 "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-an earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands'?" "Woe to him that says to a father, 'What are you begetting?' Or to a woman, 'To what are you giving birth'?"

    All of creation is created by God. God is not created, everything else is.
     
  12. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Did God create cold?
     
  13. Comm.Arnold

    Comm.Arnold New Member

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    It's all part of his perfect plan easiest answer ever, next question please.
     
  14. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    How can you create the lack of something?
     
  15. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    What part about 'free will' don't YOU understand?


    By the time one gets around the 38th chapter of Job, with God telling Job to give answer to Him if he could annul God's Righteousness to make himself appear righteous, Job closed his mouth. Those who keep wrongly assigning the creation of evil to God Himself put theirselves in that same kind of situation as what Job was trying to do, thinking that he was righteous that he had done nothing to warrant his trials.
     
  16. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    I don't subscribe to the free will theory, either. Even still, it does not explain why God said he did indeed create evil. Genesis 2:9 says he planted the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
     
  17. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Satan first rebelled in a time before... the creation of this present world. Until the Bible student understands that per God's Word, they won't understand when and how the concept of evil began, and how God is not the author of it.

    Thinking about the world to come with God's future eternity under Christ will also lead to understanding the difference, because when God's future eternal Kingdom begins, Satan and the wicked, death, hell, and even the concept of evil, will have been destroyed. In Isaiah 65, the end of the former things is declared by God with His new heavens and a new earth.

    Eph 1:4
    4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
    (KJV)


    With the KJV word "foundation" in Ephesians 1:4, its Greek word 'katabole' is from two Greek roots (kata - down) and (ballo - throw down, more or less violent or intense - Strong's no.906).

    It's pointing to the time of Satan's overthrow before this world, and then God's chosing of His elect and establishing for this present world from Gen.1 to present.


    SO... what world timeframe was God speaking of when He said Isaiah 45:7 of creating evil? AFTER... Satan's overthrow and with the establishing of this present world that He setup after ending the time of Satan's rebellion. Same thing applies to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in His Garden per Gen.2. THAT was already AFTER... Satan had rebelled against God.
     
  18. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Veteran, with all due respect, you are using human reasoning to get around what Isa 45:7 clearly says. God created evil.

    I'd also like to revisit your discussion of when Satan was cast out, and when we were chosen in Him. it's not the same time period. yes, both before the creation of this PRESENT world. But the world was already created when Satan was cast out; we were chosen before the foundations were set.

    God may not be the author of evil (but there is no verse that says that), but he certainly did create it.
     
  19. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    By the definition of free will we can do good or evil. In order for free will to exist both good and evil have to exist. I agree it was Satan along with his angels that decided to commit evil, but God allowed it.
    Do you really believe God created Satan not knowing what he will do?

    Now for your verse of the serpent of old, or ancient serpent. The snake was never described that way in Genesis 3. Correct me if I am wrong, but the snake is not mentioned that way until Revelation, which by that time the snake is ancient.

    Now I am not sure I prescribe to the two creations theory. I do know from other near eastern writings that a general account is given in a text. Then the author narrows down his story, refining and giving more detail about the text.
     
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    It's OK to disagree with me on this matter. But are you sure you're disagreeing with me, and not what our Heavenly Father has shown us about Himself throughout ALL of His Word? Understanding about Satan's rebellion per God's Word requires spiritual understanding, because God did not just come right out and explain it plainly. It's a subject He scattered throughout many Books in His Word.

    I don't think you really mean to use a term like "human reasoning", but probably something like 'carnal mind' maybe.? God expects us to use 'reason' with Him and in His Word, even as He showed in Isaiah 1. It's really about understanding; not philosophy, not doctrines of men, but real understanding in His Word by The Holy Spirit.

    This subject is actually tied to the subject Peter was teaching in 2 Pet.3, and mentioned about Paul's Epistles that in them are certain things hard to understand that some wrest with.


    Ps 5:4-5
    4 For Thou art not a God That hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with Thee.
    5 The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
    (KJV)

    Ps 94:18-23
    18 When I said, My foot slippeth; Thy mercy, O LORD, held me up.
    19 In the multitude of my thoughts within me Thy comforts delight my soul.
    20 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with Thee, which frameth mischief by a law?
    21 They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.
    22 But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.
    23 And He shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the LORD our God shall cut them off.
    (KJV)


    The time when Satan first rebelled against God was in between Gen.1:1 and 1:2. It involved a perfect creation God created at Gen.1:1 which was not placed in the bondage of corruption like today's is since Gen.1:2. (see Rom.8 about the "creature" - "creation"). God's perfect creation is what the future new heavens and a new earth is going to be about, which will actually be a 'return' of His original perfect creation (with some differences).

    It was during the time of God's original perfect creation when He created Satan as a good cherub, and he was "perfect in his ways" serving God at His Throne (Ezek.28). Then in that time, Satan rebelled in coveting God's Throne, and drew a third of the stars (angels) into rebellion along with him (Rev.12:3-4). Satan setup a beast kingdom during that time that had ten horns, seven crowns, and seven heads (again per Rev.12:3-4). Then God ended that time of Satan's rebellion with a flood, which is the state of the earth at Gen.1:2 and Jer.4:23-27. God also judged and gave future sentence to Satan and those angels that rebelled with him to perish in the "lake of fire" (Matt.25:41). And then God ordained His Salvation Plan to come, and chose His elect that would serve in The Gospel, before He established the foundation of THIS present world we are still in (Eph.1:4), which began not at Noah's flood, but at Gen.1:2. Satan brought the very first sin against God when he rebelled, as Apostle John shows us (1 John 3:8).

    That's as easy as I can make it.
     
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