Did God Give His Only Son? Fresh Look @ John 3:16
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That is right @marks: Jesus Christ was the embodiment of everything God was about presented by the holy spirit of God with-in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is why He mentions that - If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. - Which is seen by the actions and deeds of the Lord Jesus Christ in which was produced by and through the Spirit of the Father. How eye opening! 
You know that the language spoken in this scripture, as most in the NT was koine common 1st century Greek? It is not even modern Greek let alone the rough TRANSLATIONs we are left with into MODERN ENGLISH. You do understand this important fact?
And then one has to understand the idioms and idiosyncrasies of the time of the spoken language. So expressions are figurative as in the one in John 17:5. And there are many more like it.
Jesus was now speaking to his Father before his impending death and wanting him to bring glory -IMMORTALITY to Christ, his Son, FOR THE FIRST TIME. God, his Father planned his glory of immortality for our salvation in ancient past - before the world (any age) began. This is entirely in context with what John was speaking about if you care to read it all instead of just cherry picking a verse or part of a verse here and there to suit your theories and narratives.
You don't think that Jesus was very eager even desperate to gain immortality as his Father promised him, after his trip to the Cross? Well I do!
On the other hand, you might just see it as an non-eventful cry to his Father, an exercise only put on for our sakes, as a future modern reader to get all emotional about his humanity, since Jesus was going back to his supposed immortal state and shed his humanity anyway before his birth then, right?
You missed the pivotal Greek saying or idiom in the verse. Glorify me as I had before.... => What his Father had promised and planned for his immediate future. To have his glory or immortality next to his Father's glory, or immortality in heaven. Jesus never had anything before his birth, because he never existed in physical or spiritual life form.
John already voiced this first and initial glory of Yashua after the Cross. And John 17:5 is the final confirmation of it.
The Father says he gave/granted Yahshua immortality after his death on the cross and not or never before that time, since his birth (see John 5:26).
If Yahshua had immortality before his birth his Father and even Yahshua himself would have said so to make it perfectly clear. It was not to be because this was NEVER the subject in John 5:26 and 17:5.
Another thought to ponder, and with other idioms of the NT..
Now if Jesus was actually saying, give me my immortality and even my own divine nature back, then why in verse 17:5 did Jesus not say, “before when I was” or “came down from heaven,” instead of “before the world was created” ? That would have made it very clear. It was not to be because this was never the meaning of this scripture.
Of course. My Koine Greek class was a little over 20 years ago, but I do remember that much!
How do you figure? What if this was exactly what Jesus intended to communicate? What if Jesus meant exactly what He said?
No I don't.
John 13:2-5 KJV
2) And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
3) Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
4) He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
5) After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Much love!
Interestingly, this is where I am in my lunchtime reading . . .
John 16:26-28 YLT
26) 'In that day, in my name ye will make request, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father for you,
27) for the Father himself doth love you, because me ye have loved, and ye have believed that I from God came forth;
28) I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'
This seems clear to me.
I see no reason to not accept the face value of what Jesus prays in the next chapter.
Jesus knew Who He is, knew where He had come from, and knew He was returning there.
Much love!
John 16:26-28 YLT
26) 'In that day, in my name ye will make request, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father for you,
27) for the Father himself doth love you, because me ye have loved, and ye have believed that I from God came forth;
28) I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'
This seems clear to me.
I see no reason to not accept the face value of what Jesus prays in the next chapter.
Jesus knew Who He is, knew where He had come from, and knew He was returning there.
Much love!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
The verse is self explanatory and furthermore the context supports it. Jesus is speaking to His Father as He is dying on the Cross, asking Him to glorify His Son as He was glorified before the foundation of the world ... a d after He died, rise from the dead and ascended, the Father granted His request.
"These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the Son may glorify thee: 2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. 3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ. 4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
This isn't really deep theology and you are'nt getting it.
Enough with the empty and idle words. Just read the entirety of John 17:1-5 out loud without you brain wanting to twist the words and what it says.
17 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
---------------------------------------------
1. Who is the TRUE GOD OF the human being called Yahshua Ron?
2. Now who wanted to be glorified Ron by his true God?
3. Does this sound like someone beside the ONE TRUE GOD had glory and immortality before the ages began according to this portion of scripture Ron?
Be honest now....
APAK
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Therein lies the lie.
"And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed." NASB
You had a chance to been brave here Ron and answer my post #27, and realized and said YES, to at least one of questions, that the only true ONE God is the Father of Yahshua. It is NOT and NEVER NEGOTIABLE! This simple statement is the foundation of monotheism in both the OT and NT. You have to agree with this, else you have a different non-biblical Yahshua and you practice and believe in non-monotheistic doctrine.
You believe Yahshua is the same as the Father - the SAME SPIRIT. Nonsense!
Do you know what an idiom is as used in scripture Ron?
Again if you realized the idiom operating in John 17:5 you would know it is not a literal meaning of Jesus being alive before the ages. It is the Father's plan set before the ages for his SON to be resurrected from the dead and gain immortality, as we will be the same. This harmonizes scripture where your forced interpretation causes chaos, not only with the immediate context of John 17:1-5, but also with other scripture of John.
And you can never say out loud in public, that the Father is the only true one God Almighty, the Father of Yahshua, because it does not agree with your non-descript triune god worship.
Do you know why it is stated in John 17:5 that both Yahshua and the Father be glorified together? You underlined it so you must know what it means? What does it mean Ron? Hint: this type of statement is used before in other scripture. Try John 17:1 as an example. It may help you understand what it means and not what you want it to mean for your set narrative.
If you can reply DIRECTLY on point only, to this post I will listen, else don't bother replying with a another avoidance response with more manufactured rabbit holes.
APAK
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I answered your post. You look right at scripture and can't see that Jesus pre-existed with the Father.
You entirely ignored Post #11..All those scriptures you ignore and just cannot see there meaning because you do not have the Holy Spirit. You also deny this person, the Comforter, the Helper who dwells in believers. But you don't believe in Him as God. HE (EKEINOS) IS A PERSON, WHO DWELLS IN US. So there you have it. If you deny the Trinity, then you not only distort and dishonor Jesus, but also the Holy Spirit. This is serious.
My question is, why would the Holy Spirit dwell in a person who does not recognize Him as God or believe that He is a person? Jesus said the Father would send "another Helper", a distinct different person than the Father and Jesus. Many scriptures describe HIM AS God. God dwells in us. True Christians are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
Amigo, Marks, myself and 100 others can tell you the same thing and you will respond as you have, in denial. Nothing more can be said.
if this is the verse you quoted:
KJV: Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
note his only begotten Son which changes everything in your OP
CEV is a paraphrased bible, not a translation, though its said to be a translation here
(From Wikipedia,)
The translators of the CEV followed three principles. They were that the CEV:
- must be understood by people without stumbling in speech
- must be understood by those with little or no comprehension of "Bible" language, and
- must be understood by all.
The translation simplifies Biblical terminology into more everyday words and phrases. An example can be found in Exodus 20:14, where the prohibition against committing adultery is rendered positively in terms of being faithful in marriage.
Moreover, the CEV often paraphrases in order to make the underlying point of a passage clear, rather than directly translating the wording. For example, compare Psalm 127:1 in the (much more literal) New International Version:
therefore its what those who paraphrased it think it ought to say, not good, not good at all.
Stop the fibbing...you never answered my last two posts Ron...right, let's just forget it and go on for now....
Anyway, to again forget and forgive all this of the past and as if you did answer me directly, let me attempt again and salvage or gain some useful traction by answering your question directly where you said,..
"My question is, why would the Holy Spirit dwell in a person who does not recognize Him as God or believe that He is a person? Jesus said the Father would send "another Helper", a distinct different person than the Father and Jesus. Many scriptures describe HIM AS God. God dwells in us. True Christians are the Temple of the Holy Spirit..."
As a start, IMO, the Spirit composition and its attributes and functions are not that well defined in scripture to be honest. There is no science or engineering diagram revealing how the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit functions and branches into other forms or functions. We can however deduce a great deal by studying scripture.
Now from scripture study, as many believers think differently on this subject,..
1. The entire source of Spiritual life and its divine pure uncontaminated form is who I call the Father, the only one true God - 1C. He is gendered male and 'He' 'I AM that I AM' is the source and Father of all spirits as scripture says. This is the starting point.
2. When we become officially and truly believers in Christ as our Lord and our Saviour, besides our own human spirit of life, we have the Spirit of Christ and dubbed also the Spirit of Truth within us, for life. This living spirit of Yahshua is given to us by the Father of all Spirits - the Holy Spirit - the source. Yahshua had to ascend to/in his heavenly form to heaven as immortal, before we could possess this Spirit of himself. The Spirit of Christ = Spirit of Truth.
John the Baptist, besides having his own human spirit possessed the Spirit of Elijah by the Father or Holy Spirit. Even Christ directly and explicitly replied to someone as being a fact. John the Baptist never had the Spirit of Truth/ Christ for obvious reasons.
3. God, the Father of all, can create provide many types of spirit to his creation and people if he desires for different functions as he did with John the Baptist. The angels have a quite different ONE spirit, different for Christ as the immortal one, and the word of God today, and of course a human being.
So God DOES dwell in us as you say. And not to be confused with our natural life flesh spirit -soul, it is with the understanding however, that the Spirit of God is connected via the Spirit if Christ (in the middle) IN US. As the Christ is in the bosom of the Father we are in the bosom of Christ of Truth. And as you say, We are the Temples of God or in a different way, God, the Father of Spirits is in his Temple, in our human vessels within us indeed. Our human spirit is intertwined with God through his Son. There is no separation for a true believer in God via his Son's Spirit.
As an engineer of my past, I am tempted to draw all this out on a white board and then attach the applicable scripture that points to all this true spiritual reality.
No. The 2 great classes of translations are THOUGHT and LITERAL. In reality, all are both to some extent. I prefer thought translations for readability.
I learned this week that the grammar is different in Japanese. So, while we might say “I gave it to you” SUBJECT-VERB-OBJECT, the Japanese day “I you have” SUBJECT-OBJECT-VERB.
I don’t recognize the Middle English KJV as a modern American translation. It is mostly unreadable to me. Of course, noe of this has to do with the 2 points of the OP.
if you don't recognize the British know their language better then anyone else that's realy your personal problem. i showed you that the CVE is it
is a paraphrase not a translation
also, i do believe 40 experts using hebrew greek and latin were commissioned and KJV has stood over 400 years of public scrutiny. get access to a exhaustive OED dictionary that will show you the use of words in the time of the translation.
which makes the changes in public use of words irrelevant.
1. All translations should state "ONLY BEGOTTEN Son" not "only Son". This is critical since monogenes means uniquely begotten or only begotten Son. There was no mother involved, and what it means is that there is a unique and eternal Father-Son relationship within the Godhead.
2. To answer the first question God gave His only begotten Son to die for the sins of the whole world. But He did not remain dead. He rose again after three days and three nights, ascended into Heaven, and is now seated at the right hand of the Father.
3. God's Son can be God for the simple reason that the eternal Godhead consists of three divine persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is not rocket science, but beyond rocket science. God is ONE, yet exists are three persons. If you cannot fathom that, all you have to do is simply believe it. There are millions (or hundreds of millions) who have no problem believing this.
No. The KJV has many errors. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Make a blessed day.
It's NOT critical at all since all first born children are only begotten. In any event, begotten is synonymous with created. Thanks for bringing this point up.
That is not circular reasoning. All biblical theology must begin with some fundamental assumptions.
1. There is only one Lord God Almighty, who is both the Creator, the Savior and the Judge of all mankind.
2. There is only one triune Godhead, which includes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each one is fully God.
3. There is no contradiction nor confusion in holding these truths together at the same time, since this is what the Word of God reveals.
Wrong. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins..
Jesus shed His blood on the cross, that was sufficient.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
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