Did God Give His Only Son? Fresh Look @ John 3:16

[Wrangler]

The CEV translation reads, "God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die." In this thread I want to explore 2 questions:

1. If God gave his son, how can Jesus be with God still?
2. Given God gave his son, how can his son be God?

Both questions are a matter of definition, logic and language usage. The 2nd question shows that Jesus is not God. Subjects of sentences are not objects of sentences. Compare with, "President Trump gave Rush Limbaugh the Medal of Freedom." President Trump and God are the subjects of the sentence; they do the acting. Rush Limbaugh and Jesus (his son) are the objects of the sentence; they are acted upon.

One attribute of giving something is that you no longer have it. It seems more like God lent his son for ~33 years. Is there another example you can point to where you give something while also retaining that very same thing? By contrast, if I lend you my baseball glove and you return it, with normal wear and tear but it remains the same glove. It is not like I give you my baseball glove and you give me back a totally different, brand new glove.

 

[marks]

Both questions are a matter of definition, logic and language usage. The 2nd question shows that Jesus is not God. Subjects of sentences are not objects of sentences. Compare with, "President Trump gave Rush Limbaugh the Medal of Freedom." President Trump and God are the subjects of the sentence; they do the acting. Rush Limbaugh and Jesus (his son) are the objects of the sentence; they are acted upon.

But that's treating the matter as already concluded. Your argument here is a that these can't be the same because they are different. The trinitarian assertion is more like, though different, still the same. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are each three grammatical subjects, but that's not the question. Do they in fact transcend the ordinary collection of people?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It is not like I give you my baseball glove and you give me back a totally different, brand new glove.

I give you love!

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Your argument here is a that these can't be the same because they are different. The trinitarian assertion is more like, though different, still the same.

Right! You got it. Again definition, logic and language usage. The very reason we use certain words is to differentiate ideas that are not the same - because they are different. For theological reasons, you are treating antonyms as synonyms. For instance, in a math equation X + Y = Z, the very reason we use different symbols is not that they could the same but that they could be different.

Things that can be different ARE different from things that cannot be different. X + X = X.

While things could be the same in some way does not mean they are they are different in every way. Again, this makes them different. A great example of this is in politics. On Topic A some of your friends may be your opponents on Topic B.

 

[marks]

Right! You got it. Again definition, logic and language usage. The very reason we use certain words is to differentiate ideas that are not the same - because they are different. For theological reasons, you are treating antonyms as synonyms. For instance, in a math equation X + Y = Z, the very reason we use different symbols is not that they could the same but that they could be different.

So then, people have been trying to solve the concept of a Triune God with logic for centuries.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

So then, people have been trying to solve the concept of a Triune God with logic for centuries.

Much love!

I don't find the big mystery.
God without beginning, without ending.
God creator and maker.

God...has WILL,
God...has WORD,
God...has POWER.

God created mankind, out of the Earth.
God made mankind, in Gods Likeness.

Man...has WILL,
Man...has WORD,
Man...has POWER.

WILL - desires, wants, ideas, attempts, picks, choices, etc. ( in the MIND & in the HEART )

WORD - spoken, written, gestured, OF; ideas, wants, desires, demands, options, likes, dislikes, etc. Expressed.

POWER - ability, talent, stamina, position, strength, status, authority, etc. TO; ACHIEVE / ACCOMPLISH ideas, wants, desires, demands, options, likes, etc., ..... and stave off, reject; dislikes, hate, abuse, rejection, wickedness, etc.

Gods WORD, WILL, POWER...are ALL the ONE SAME Heavenly Lord GOD Almighty....Working together in Absolute Truth and "Harmony"
His own WILL, His own MIND and His own HEART and His own WORD and His own Power, ALWAYS in agreement.

Mans WORD, WILL, POWER...are ALL the ONE SAME man....
And OH OH OH....all day long;
The majority of men's; word, will, power.... are in constant disharmony/ conflict, one being AGAINST the other.

Medical Doctors call this...a whole range of things, such as depression, anxiety, mental disorder, personality disorder, etc.
(A candidate for chemical compounds.)

Scripture calls this....poor in spirit, sick, conflicted, lost, not whole, etc.
( A candidate for Jesus "the MAKER"...to make one healed and wholly whole and holy.)

God has revealed Multiple Names and Titles for His WORD, His WILL, His POWER....

Eh...surprise....an individual man has Multiple Names and Titles for his word, will, power.

Don't see the big mystery.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Given God gave his son, how can his son be God?

We have two nature's, the spirit, which is the invisible you ( if you have been born again - otherwise you are dead) AND our physical body.
Jesus physical body was given for the blood sacrifice
His body died and was resurrected on the third day. His spirit did not die.
God the Son, emptied Himself into the womb of Mary. He relinquished His glory for that time and dwelled among us as a man. He became our High Priest. In the IT. The High Priest entered the Holy Place, He made the sacrifices for the Atonement of sins. So He sacrificed himself, the Lamb of God, Who from the beginning was the Word, was with God and is God.
He is the Creator (Col. 1:16, 17)

Watch it though, because if you keep spewing out garbage, He might vomit you out of His mouth!

 

[Brakelite]

His spirit did not die.

If the Son of God didn't fully die, body, soul, and spirit, then He didn't meet our fulfill the law which requires death as the wages of sin. If He didn't die, there's no propitiation.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

If the Son of God didn't fully die, body, soul, and spirit, then He didn't meet our fulfill the law which requires death as the wages of sin. If He didn't die, there's no propitiation.

You would in error concerning the most important event in history
A blood sacrifice is required to atone for sins, it was in the OT as well. His blood and death were physical.
His Spirit did not die. Proof of this is simply He is God, but even uf yiu dont believe that, He said to the crucified man next to him that he would be _ with Him _in Paradise _ TODAY.

 

[APAK]

We have two nature's, the spirit, which is the invisible you ( if you have been born again - otherwise you are dead) AND our physical body.
Jesus physical body was given for the blood sacrifice
His body died and was resurrected on the third day. His spirit did not die.
God the Son, emptied Himself into the womb of Mary. He relinquished His glory for that time and dwelled among us as a man. He became our High Priest. In the IT. The High Priest entered the Holy Place, He made the sacrifices for the Atonement of sins. So He sacrificed himself, the Lamb of God, Who from the beginning was the Word, was with God and is God.
He is the Creator (Col. 1:16, 17)

Watch it though, because if you keep spewing out garbage, He might vomit you out of His mouth!

You said: "..God the Son, emptied Himself into the womb of Mary. He relinquished His glory for that time and dwelled among us as a man..."

So really, where did you get this garbage from, beside from your hard-wired 3-gods brain?

Talk about wanting to vomit....

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You said: "..God the Son, emptied Himself into the womb of Mary. He relinquished His glory for that time and dwelled among us as a man..."

So really, where did you get this garbage from, beside from your hard-wired 3-gods brain?

Talk about wanting to vomit....

Here comes a few slam dunks ...!

"Who existing in the form of God did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness." Phil. 2;6, 7
He did not expect us to grasp this concept of Him being God. It would take much counsel, study of God's Word and the Holy Spirit's personal revelation. [That is called a double pumper slam dunk.]
"Because of this , Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself EQUAL WITH GOD." John 5:18
The Jews knew what He was implying ... they were little brighter, they actually grasped what He was saying, just did not believe it!
Another incident:
"The Jews answered Him. saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make yourself God." John 10:33 [Dribbled right through his opponents legs, jumped over another opponent who dove for the ball and jammed it in his face.]

"Therefore the Lord shall give you a sign, Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a Son and shall call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14
OT prophecy confirms, Jesus will be called God who dwelt among us! [The opponent trips over his teammate, falls to the ground, hits his head and is knocked out cold! They take him off the court in a stretcher ... someone else takes his place.]

"The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; for that reason also the Holy Child will be called the Son of God." Luke 1:35
Let's put these concepts together: He emptied Himself and the Holy Spirit came upon her and she was conceived.
He is Holy because He is God. Only God is Holy! [I threw a pass to my teammate, the opponent was hit with the ball, and it ricocheted off his face and into the basket for a score! I guess he wasn't paying attention!]

"For unto unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon His shoulder and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6
Wow, what a mouthful, so rich, so deep, so profound. We have here a child, Who becomes the Savior of the World. After He performs His purpose, He is given ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH, which requires omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. Only God can control the universe! [That was a triple spin, backward slam dunk!]
Then the second part of the verse is harder to grasp, especially for the blind.
He will be called Wonderful Counselor, which is a reference to the Holy Spirit.
The Migthty God! There it is, how can someone mistake the meaning of this verse - even if you are blind?
The Everlasting Father! Jesus said, I and the Father are ONE. Since He is the Creator as clearly explained in Col. 1:16, 17, He is God. "
The Prince of Peace! This is the easy one to digest, unbelievers grasp this.
So in one verse we have the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- ONE GOD, three persons.

"For by Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Col. 1:16, 17 He is not a created being! He is the Creator and did not create Himself, since this verse says HE CREATED ALL THINGS. Notice also, He existed "before all things".

[Game over, the opposing team suffered a tragic loss. Though they were injured, discouraged, broken and humiliated, they are still alive, for God did not vomit them out of His mouth yet! I think He wants to teach them more lessons!]

 

[APAK]

@Ronald David Bruno this is not a game to played here as you treat this topic. It is getting to the truth and really understanding the words of God...

So you do not believe in John 3:16 then, that the Father, the only true God created a man called Jesus. He called him his only Son because he especially became the only immortal man upon his resurrection, and shares in the power of his Father today.

The scripture you displayed and your very brief misunderstanding of them does nothing to support your case that the Father's Son is the same divine Spirit as his Father and his Spirit.

Yes it is ridiculous I know, and this is what you believe in I gather.

APAK

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So you do not believe in John 3:16 then, that the Father, the only true God created a man called Jesus. He called him his only Son because he especially became the only immortal man upon his resurrection, and shares in the power of his Father today.

The physical baby Jesus was born, created. But God's Spirit was not. He pre-existed with the Father.
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." John 17:5

The scripture you displayed and your very brief misunderstanding of them does nothing to support your case that the Father's Son is the same divine Spirit as his Father and his Spirit.

You are blind. It is right there and you cannot see it. Don't be like the Pharisees.
You don't even have logic. Jesus, having authority in heaven and earth should be enough for you to accept Him as God. It requires omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. But you will find a way to misinterpret every one of those scriptures, or ignore them, which is exactly what you just did, you deflected onto another scripture.
Ask yourself, Do you have peace with God, the joy of the Lord, fruit of the Spirit? Or do you just seek to attack and insult Trinitarians? I suppose your primary motivation in life is to get up every morning and devise ways to dismantle our views? That is how you started your dialogue with me. Shining your light I suppose, spreading your joy?
So I took it and played along as if in a game. You started it.
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
I am being kind. I gave you what you asked for, scriptures. You can't respond to them so you go off with another false accusation.

*There is no reason to continue with someone who will ignore, reject, deflect, distort the Bible and attack me. I have learned patience but also know when to dust off the dirt from my sandals and move on because it is a dead end conversation with non-trinitartians, futile and hopeless.

 

[MatthewG]

God was with-in his son by the Holy Spirit wasn't He? That is why Jesus Christ second name was Immanuel - God with us - which was with them back in their age.

 

[amigo de christo]

But that's treating the matter as already concluded. Your argument here is a that these can't be the same because they are different. The trinitarian assertion is more like, though different, still the same. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are each three grammatical subjects, but that's not the question. Do they in fact transcend the ordinary collection of people?

Much love!

There once was a man who was a teacher . He went one day unto the ocean
and filled up a bucket with the water of the ocean .
He brings it unto his class . And He says , class i have brought you the ocean .
And they laughed him to mockery .
He then takes the class unto the beach . He says to the students take this bucket and fill it with THE OCEAN water .
So they do . He then says class , you have brought me the ocean .
Alas i brought you the ocean and ye mocked , and yet how was the water any different when it was in the bucket
than when it was in the ocean .
And the class marveled .

 

[APAK]

The physical baby Jesus was born, created. But God's Spirit was not. He pre-existed with the Father.
"And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." John 17:5



You are blind. It is right there and you cannot see it. Don't be like the Pharisees.
You don't even have logic. Jesus, having authority in heaven and earth should be enough for you to accept Him as God. It requires omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. But you will find a way to misinterpret every one of those scriptures, or ignore them, which is exactly what you just did, you deflected onto another scripture.
Ask yourself, Do you have peace with God, the joy of the Lord, fruit of the Spirit? Or do you just seek to attack and insult Trinitarians? I suppose your primary motivation in life is to get up every morning and devise ways to dismantle our views? That is how you started your dialogue with me. Shining your light I suppose, spreading your joy?
So I took it and played along as if in a game. You started it.
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
I am being kind. I gave you what you asked for, scriptures. You can't respond to them so you go off with another false accusation.

*There is no reason to continue with someone who will ignore, reject, deflect, distort the Bible and attack me. I have learned patience but also know when to dust off the dirt from my sandals and move on because it is a dead end conversation with non-trinitartians, futile and hopeless.

You keep misinterpreting scripture Ron. The same one all the time.

Look at your leading scripture of John 17:5 for example. It does not even imply the Son of God, the Father existed before his birth at all. HIs glory was planned and purposed in the mind of God, the Father before his Son the Christ was born. All the prophets, Abraham and Moses were looking for this glory in their their future. Why force another meaning here? It's astonishing..

Happy Trails

 

[marks]

You keep misinterpreting scripture Ron. The same one all the time.

Look at your leading scripture of John 17:5 for example. It does not even imply the Son of God, the Father existed before his birth at all. HIs glory was planned and purposed in the mind of God, the Father before his Son the Christ was born. All the prophets, Abraham and Moses were looking for this glory in their their future. Why force another meaning here? It's astonishing..

Happy Trails

Are you saying here that the glory Christ had with the Father was solely in the Father's intention for Christ, and not that Jesus was pre-existent with the Father? Am I understanding correctly?

 

[marks]

@APAK



Literally, the glory I had alongside you.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Are you saying here that the glory Christ had with the Father was solely in the Father's intention for Christ, and not that Jesus was pre-existent with the Father? Am I understanding correctly?

God did not create Christ . As i am sure you already know .
JESUS was always with GOD . HE IS the WORD OF GOD , the SPIRIT OF GOD .
How did GOD create the worlds . HE SPOKE and it was . WHO Do we think IS THE WORDS OF GOD . THEY ARE SPIRIT and THEY ARE LIFE .
JESUS IS THE VERY EXPRESS IMAGE OF GOD . The HOLY SPIRIT is GOD , IT IS CHRIST . As the word cannot be seperate from the Father
neither can His spirit be seperate . Same Spirit , same WORD , same GOD .

 

[marks]

God did not create Christ . As i am sure you already know .
JESUS was always with GOD . HE IS the WORD OF GOD , the SPIRIT OF GOD .
How did GOD create the worlds . HE SPOKE and it was . WHO Do we think IS THE WORDS OF GOD . THEY ARE SPIRIT and THEY ARE LIFE .
JESUS IS THE VERY EXPRESS IMAGE OF GOD . The HOLY SPIRIT is GOD , IT IS CHRIST . As the word cannot be seperate from the Father
neither can His spirit be seperate . Same Spirit , same WORD , same GOD .

Jesus makes it simple. "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."

Much love!