Did God make a covenant with Abram while he was in deep sleep?

[TonyChanYT]

Genesis 15:

1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision [G4236]: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”

5 Hebrew words are translated to "vision". G4236 is used least often, only 4 times in the OT.

9 He said to him, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.”

This part of the vision happened while he was awake, probably while lying down.

10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.

Abram performed the above physical acts.

12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him.

Brenton Septuagint Translation Genesis 15:

12 And about sunset a trance fell upon Abram, and lo! a great gloomy terror falls upon him.

The LXX Greek word is ekstasis, Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

STRONGS NT 1611: ἔκστασις

1. universally, in Greek writing, any casting down of a thing from its proper place or state; displacement (Aristotle, Plutarch).
2. a throwing of the mind out of its normal state, alienation of mind

God put Abram in a non-awake trance state to inform him of some bad news:

13 Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know for certain that your offspring will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs and will be servants there, and they will be afflicted for four hundred years.

The trance did not last long. Then, back to the physical reality:

17 Now it came about, when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, a smoking oven and a flaming torch appeared which passed between these pieces.

The above was a supernatural happening in the physical realm.

18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram.

Did God make a covenant with Abram while he was in a trance?

The covenant involved a sequence of events intertwining spiritual visions (revelation) and physical (ritual) actions.

 

[Randy Kluth]

NASB Genesis 15:

Brenton Septuagint Translation Genesis 15:

The LXX Greek word is ekstasis, Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

There is no mention of Abram waking up. The context shows that it was a deep profound sleep of a supernatural nature. It wasn't a dream. It was a vision. Abram saw realities. The prophecy was confirmed in verse 17:

That didn't happen in his dream. The sleep here signifies some kind of vision in the spiritual realm.

So you're saying that Abraham had a vision while he was dreaming? Or, he wasn't really dreaming? I'm a little confused!

Regardless, this is a most profound historical moment. God grants prophecy to Abraham showing what His purpose will be for the rest of history. It involved Israel, and also many nations who would share the faith of Abraham. It constituted his "fatherhood," both biological and spiritual. All of OT Prophecy is predicated upon this singular event, and accompanying promises.

 

[Dr. Jonathan Österman]

I'm a little confused!

He confused the living bejeezus out of me!

 

[Dr. Jonathan Österman]

That didn't happen in his dream. The sleep here signifies some kind of vision in the spiritual realm.

According to an 800-year old consensus of the Vatican theologians,
the above mentioned mystical vision in the spiritual realm
was the result of a simple Christian meditation of self-emptying
that we study in the following thread :
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/christian-meditation-and-interfaith-dialog.60309/post-1740603

 

[TonyChanYT]

So you're saying that Abraham had a vision while he was dreaming? Or, he wasn't really dreaming? I'm a little confused!

Good questions.

I modified and elaborated. Please reread the OP and follow up. Thanks.

 

[TonyChanYT]

He confused the living bejeezus out of me!

I modified and elaborated. Please reread the OP and follow up. Thanks.

 

[Dr. Jonathan Österman]

I modified and elaborated. Please re-read the OP and follow up. Thanks.

Sorry, I have no time to re-read it, because I am very busy writing my new Christian meditation interfaith dialog book. The following is a fragment from my upcoming New York Times best-seller:

" Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God is coming, and he answered, The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is within you.” — Luke 17:20–21

Christian mystical Non-Duality means that we have never been separated from God, because the kingdom of God has always been deep within us. We have been children of God all along, and forever after, and God will never disown us, despite naturally being, like a loving mother, compassionately angry with us whenever we happen to harm ourselves with our sins, and threatening us with eternal Hell to sober us up. Because, being spiritually immature, we all, in essence, live lives of the prodigal son (or daughter) from the Biblical parable, God being a stern, but loving and forgiving Father, has been kindly allowing us to keep reincarnating for as long as we need in order to purify our mind by spiritually growing in our unconditional Love for all living creatures, including all the Buddhists, because Christ urged us to love even our enemies. For in God’s Heaven, there is only Divine Love and perfect harmony, all revelling in the Non-Dual divine Glory of God’s Holy Light.

Be still, and know that I am God. — Psalms 46:10

When our mind calmly meditates, we abide in stillness, in the silent presence of the occult Holy Light of the Omnipresent mind of God, and in the Holy Peace of God, which surpasses our conceptual thinking and understanding (Philippians 4:7), and thus we become more and more Enlightened by allowing our mind to gently and humbly bask in the glory of God’s all-pervading mystical Holy Light of His divine radiant luminous consciousness that is also hidden deep within our own mind being our True Self and our birth-right to have eternal life in God’s Heaven with our Lord Jesus Christ. We all are children of God’s Holy Light, including all the Buddhists, because the kingdom of God is within us all.

All of the above will be revealed also to you directly by God himself in your simple Christian meditation, which we discuss in the following thread on this forum:

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/christian-meditation-and-interfaith-dialog.60309/

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sorry, I have no time to re-read it, because I am very busy writing my new Christian meditation interfaith dialog book. The following is a fragment from my upcoming New York Times best-seller:

" Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God is coming, and he answered, The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There it is!’ For, in fact, the kingdom of God is within you.” — Luke 17:20–21

Christian mystical Non-Duality means that we have never been separated from God, because the kingdom of God has always been deep within us. We have been children of God all along, and forever after, and God will never disown us, despite naturally being, like a loving mother, compassionately angry with us whenever we happen to harm ourselves with our sins, and threatening us with eternal Hell to sober us up. Because, being spiritually immature, we all, in essence, live lives of the prodigal son (or daughter) from the Biblical parable, God being a stern, but loving and forgiving Father, has been kindly allowing us to keep reincarnating for as long as we need in order to purify our mind by spiritually growing in our unconditional Love for all living creatures, including all the Buddhists, because Christ urged us to love even our enemies. For in God’s Heaven, there is only Divine Love and perfect harmony, all revelling in the Non-Dual divine Glory of God’s Holy Light.

Be still, and know that I am God. — Psalms 46:10

When our mind calmly meditates, we abide in stillness, in the silent presence of the occult Holy Light of the Omnipresent mind of God, and in the Holy Peace of God, which surpasses our conceptual thinking and understanding (Philippians 4:7), and thus we become more and more Enlightened by allowing our mind to gently and humbly bask in the glory of God’s all-pervading mystical Holy Light of His divine radiant luminous consciousness that is also hidden deep within our own mind being our True Self and our birth-right to have eternal life in God’s Heaven with our Lord Jesus Christ. We all are children of God’s Holy Light, including all the Buddhists, because the kingdom of God is within us all.

All of the above will be revealed also to you directly by God himself in your simple Christian meditation, which we discuss in the following thread on this forum:

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/christian-meditation-and-interfaith-dialog.60309/

View attachment 39574

I'm not in the least interested in your obvious advertising campaign. Placing Buddhism together with Christianity and using terms like reincarnation have no place on a conservative Christian forum, IMO.

 

[Dr. Jonathan Österman]

using terms like reincarnation have no place

What is wrong with reincarnation, in your subjective humble opinion, Randy?

I suspect that you might be a Buddhism denier ?

Are all the Buddhists going to Hell ?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Genesis 15:


5 Hebrew words are translated to "vision". G4236 is used least often, only 4 times in the OT.


This part of the vision happened while he was awake, probably while lying down.


Abram performed the above physical acts.


Brenton Septuagint Translation Genesis 15:


The LXX Greek word is ekstasis, Thayer's Greek Lexicon:


God put Abram in a non-awake trance state to inform him of some bad news:


The trance did not last long. Then, back to the physical reality:


The above was a supernatural happening in the physical realm.


Did God make a covenant with Abram while he was in a trance?

The covenant involved a sequence of events intertwining spiritual visions (revelation) and physical (ritual) actions.

I suppose God determines how He wishes to communicate. I believe the biblical record, that things were communicated to Abraham both awake and asleep.

However God wishes to communicate it is by nature "supernatural." The evidence that it is real is both objective and subjective. It happens not just in the mind but in the realm of the senses. Whether awake or asleep, God's word is equally "real," and not just a psychological state of mind in the mind of one who is in a trance or sleeping.

On a personal note, I have had dreams myself in which God spoke to me. It certainly transcended the psychological state of my mind while dreaming! These "words from the Lord" often wake me out of my sleep!

Your pointing out that both of these elements, trance awake and trance asleep, were involved indicates, properly, that God's Covenant was established in the surest possible way. Philosophy today would place a premium on evidence, as well as on experience. Both elements were present. Being asleep does not make the experience of God's verbalized word any less a real experience.

I do agree that God began with a vision while Abraham was awake, confirmed the vision in his sleep, still speaking to him in reality, and then again spoke to him while he was awake. I concur. Interesting post. Thanks much!

 

[Randy Kluth]

What is wrong with reincarnation, in your subjective humble opinion, Randy?

I suspect that you might be a Buddhism denier ?

Are all the Buddhists going to Hell ?

No, as I've said before I admired Buddhism before it emerged as a form of idolatry. It was a reform movement, I believe. It wanted to reduce things from the strictly mystical to a practical means of controlling one's behavior. It helped stabilize the mind in our crazy world.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Buddhism. It was just my 1st impression as I looked at "comparative religions."

No, certainly I don't believe Buddhists automatically "go to Hell!" God is kind and merciful, and judges all men not on their upbringing or influences, but more on their heart. It helps to have truth, which is why we have the Gospel being preached. But even the Gospel can be corrupted by flawed men--we are all flawed in some ways.

This is why I don't want to see advertising here--just discussion so people can make up their minds and judge what is truth without being manipulated. Thanks for asking.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Are all the Buddhists going to Hell ?

Good question. See What about people of other cultures, ancient Chinese, ancient Australians, Islamic, Hindu, etc?

 

[Dr. Jonathan Österman]

No one will be condemned to hell by God because of something that they did not know.

I would hope so, too, Tony.

But, what about these Buddhists, who know about the Gospels?

 

[Freedm]

I'm not in the least interested in your obvious advertising campaign. Placing Buddhism together with Christianity and using terms like reincarnation have no place on a conservative Christian forum, IMO.

I would never support the abolition or discouraging of certain types of discussions. If he's right, you could learn something. If he's wrong, you have an opportunity to prove it. Either way, something good can come from discussing such things.

Don't forget that even Billy Graham said Buddhists would be in heaven. How is that possible? It's certainly not, with traditional Christian understanding, but perhaps traditional Christian understanding is not all it's cracked up to be. How did Billy Graham come to that conclusion? Try to understand that, and you may understand Randy.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Don't forget that even Billy Graham said Buddhists would be in heaven.

Some would. See What about people of other cultures, ancient Chinese, ancient Australians, Islamic, Hindu, etc? and follow up there.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I would never support the abolition or discouraging of certain types of discussions. If he's right, you could learn something. If he's wrong, you have an opportunity to prove it. Either way, something good can come from discussing such things.

Don't forget that even Billy Graham said Buddhists would be in heaven. How is that possible? It's certainly not, with traditional Christian understanding, but perhaps traditional Christian understanding is not all it's cracked up to be. How did Billy Graham come to that conclusion? Try to understand that, and you may understand Randy.

That's nothing new to me. I've had similar beliefs for a long time. So have Catholics, though I'm not Catholic.

The idea that God saves people despite themselves is not a new concept. The idea that He is the source of Salvation, and not ourselves is also not a new concept.

The idea of a Christian forum is to discuss Christian ideas. If this was a forum for construction contractors they wouldn't want people into vegetarianism. Off topic--not a judgment.

 

[Freedm]

The idea of a Christian forum is to discuss Christian ideas. If this was a forum for construction contractors they wouldn't want people into vegetarianism. Off topic--not a judgment.

I don't disagree, but I believe Christianity is about so much more than the gospel story. It's also about seeking and knowing the truth. And in order for us to know God, we have to understand his creation, especially the stuff we don't typically talk about.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I don't disagree, but I believe Christianity is about so much more than the gospel story. It's also about seeking and knowing the truth. And in order for us to know God, we have to understand his creation, especially the stuff we don't typically talk about.

I also favor liberty to discuss more rather than stiff restrictions on meandering conversations. Thanks.