Did Jesus claim to be God?

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Cooper

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GINOLJC, to all.

First thanks for your reply. not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. the Hebrew term "MAN" or "ADAM" in the creation account have two definitions. my source, the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments.

A. Adam/ManH120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Root(s): H119

THIS WILL COVER YOUR TERM G444 IN THE "GREEK". for we're looking at the Hebrew ok.

B. H121 אָדָם 'Adam (aw-dawm') n/p.
1. (person) Adam the name of the first man.
2. (location) a place in Israel.
[the same as H120]
KJV: Adam.
Root(s): H120

We suggest you study both of these two definitions carefully.


INCORRECT, the son of Man is no man's NATURAL, biological son. the Son of God is biologial, meaning Flesh and bone.


while ...not "FORGETTING?" HOLD it, let's get something straight. are you saying that the HOLY GHOST birthed the Lord Jesus or Mary? no matter, it is the Holy Spirit, that concieved the child... (flesh and bone with blood in Mary's womb), which makes the Holy Spirit the "FATHER". now, cooper, you and and anyone else can attest to this, if the Child that was concieved, is not the the conceiver the Father? so it is the Holy Ghost who is actually the title holder "Father". Uh O yes, the Holy Spirit whom many put Last is the "Father". now, that's a can of worms that needs to be open.


HIM is Jesus, for Jesus made "all things, including man". scripture, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." so it was Jesus who made "ALL THINGS", and he did't go through anyone to make all things. for, Isaiah 44:24 states that JESUS was "ALONE" and "BY HIMSELF", when he made all things. listen, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

now if JESUS, the Spirit was alone, then
A. he didn't go through anyone,
B. by being by himself, there is no other person with with or beside him. meaning this statement in Isaiah 44:24 eliminates any three person in any trinity. READ ISAIAH 44:24 AGAIN.

PICJAG.
I am very familiar with the Greek and Hebrew for man, and did if fact post one.

God the FATHER is spirit, they are One, and so is Jesus One with the Father who gave life to Mary's seed.
.
 

Truther

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I think this: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1Timothy 3:16
.
Good, you think God was manifested INSIDE the flesh of His human son...etc.

For a minute, I was worried you thought God was manifest AS flesh....
 

101G

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I am very familiar with the Greek and Hebrew for man, and did if fact post one.

God the FATHER is spirit, they are One, and so is Jesus One with the Father who gave life to Mary's seed.
.
I am very familiar with the Greek and Hebrew for man, and did if fact post one.

God the FATHER is spirit, they are One, and so is Jesus One with the Father who gave life to Mary's seed.
.
yes, God the Father is the Holy Spirit, and it is the Spirit who gives LIFE, scriptures, John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

PICJAG.
 

Cooper

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yes, God the Father is the Holy Spirit, and it is the Spirit who gives LIFE, scriptures, John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

PICJAG.
God is Spirit. ONE Spirit. This applies on earth and in heaven. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent.

Father and Son are simply the names by which we differentiate between the omnipresent God in heaven and God made visible on earth.
.
 

Truther

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God is Spirit. ONE Spirit. This applies on earth and in heaven. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent.

Father and Son are simply the names by which we differentiate between the omnipresent God in heaven and God made visible on earth.
.
No, get it right my friend...

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

....per Jesus' description of his God.
 
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tigger 2

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I think this: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1Timothy 3:16
.


1 Tim. 3:16 (“God was manifest in the flesh”)


As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God “manifest in the flesh.”

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God” as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he(NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation), “he who(ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), “who,” or “which.” Even the equally old Douay version has “which was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”). Why do the best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?


Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts ….” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp. 696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [ca. 370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.


What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!


Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:

“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.


And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

And even hyper-trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:

“The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.


The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.

Any time you can find so many trinitarian scholars and translators who agree that a trinity 'proof' verse is NOT accurate, you can be assured that it is NOT a valid 'proof.'
 

Cooper

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No, get it right my friend...

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

....per Jesus' description of his God.
That must be why there are so many false cults, they worship the wrong spirit. Notice also we are to worship in spirit and not physically by making sacrifice or head banging, or dancing naked in a circle, or building stone monuments like we see at Stonehenge. I believe the Catholics are strong on ceremony as well. This is not the worship of heart and mind where no physical action is required. What is required is a deep adoration of the Lord.

The Pharisee were very strong on physical appearance and ritual, and Jesus told them their father was the devil. (John 8:44) So let that be a warning to us, that we worship the true God, connecting our spirit with his, try that sometime, and then we shall be worshipping in spirit and in truth.
 
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Cooper

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1 Tim. 3:16 (“God was manifest in the flesh”)


As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God “manifest in the flesh.”

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God” as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he(NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation), “he who(ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), “who,” or “which.” Even the equally old Douay version has “which was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”). Why do the best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?


Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts ….” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp. 696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [ca. 370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.


What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!


Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:

“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.


And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

And even hyper-trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:

“The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.


The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.

Any time you can find so many trinitarian scholars and translators who agree that a trinity 'proof' verse is NOT accurate, you can be assured that it is NOT a valid 'proof.'

Thank you for that, you know a lot more than I do and I wouldn't dare comment. Speaking personally, I believe in One God, who made himself known to us in a very real and wonderful way both in word and deed, so that the Father might be seen in Him. May the one God bless.
 

Truther

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That must be why there are so many false cults, they worship the wrong spirit. Notice also we are to worship in spirit and not physically by making sacrifice or head banging, or dancing naked in a circle, or building stone monuments like we see at Stonehenge. I believe the Catholics are strong on ceremony as well. This is not the worship of heart and mind where no physical action is required. What is required is a deep adoration of the Lord.

The Pharisee were very strong on physical appearance and ritual, and Jesus told them their father was the devil. (John 8:44) So let that be a warning to us, that we worship the true God, connecting our spirit with his, try that sometime, and then we shall be worshipping in spirit and in truth.
Correct.

We must get back to the words of Jesus as he taught us that God is a Spirit....him....him....(John 4:24)

Christians deny that Jesus' description of God as a Spirit...him...him...is accurate.

They think Jesus subliminally meant this...

God is a Spirit/flesh, and they that worship us....us....
 

Cooper

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Regarding 1 Timothy 3:16, I see in my study bible the HE as in "He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."

Relates to Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

and

1Pe 1:20 KJV Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
 

Cooper

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Correct.

We must get back to the words of Jesus as he taught us that God is a Spirit....him....him....(John 4:24)

Christians deny that Jesus' description of God as a Spirit...him...him...is accurate.

They think Jesus subliminally meant this...

God is a Spirit/flesh, and they that worship us....us....

God is spirit made manifest in the flesh. So we know the nature of the Father, by knowing the nature of Jesus.

Try to get beyond the words people use and into what they are trying to say. Expressing oneself can be very difficult.

Lights out. Night.
 
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Truther

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God is spirit made manifest in the flesh. So we know the nature of the Father, by knowing the nature of Jesus.

Try to get beyond the words people use and into what they are trying to say. Expressing oneself can be very difficult.

Lights out. Night.
Spirit is flesh?

Jesus described God as flesh and Spirit in John 4:24?

I trow not...good night.
 

Truther

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Regarding 1 Timothy 3:16, I see in my study bible the HE as in "He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory."

Relates to Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

and

1Pe 1:20 KJV Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Is that the New World translation of the JW's?....


16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh,...
 

Cooper

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You can't read John 17 and believe that Christ was God. Its just not there.
I began reading from verse 1, and when I got to verse 5 it fair hit me between the eyes!

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:5 KJV
 

Truther

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I began reading from verse 1, and when I got to verse 5 it fair hit me between the eyes!

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:5 KJV
That was this glory......

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Which is the greatest glory Jesus had before the world began.
 

Cooper

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Spirit is flesh?

Jesus described God as flesh and Spirit in John 4:24?

I trow not...good night.
God IN Christ. God MANIFEST in Christ. God ON earth.

2Co_12:19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

Gal_3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of
God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Php_3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of
God in Christ Jesus.

1Th_5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of
God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

What is it you don't understand? Or do you just read a few selected verses and that is all you know?
.
 

101G

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You can't read John 17 and believe that Christ was God. Its just not there.
why do you say that? did not John 1:1c say, he, the Word was God?

now if John said that he, Jesus was God and "YOU" say he was not, who should we believe? the eye witness John, or you?

now, I understand why men say this, but I would like to hear what brought you to this conclusion. I always like to hear any opposing sides.

PICJAG.
 

Cooper

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Is that the New World translation of the JW's?....


16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh,...
Certainly not. I do not think you would find that in the JW Babble. It is from the King James Bible.
.
 
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Cooper

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That was this glory......

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Which is the greatest glory Jesus had before the world began.
Jesus existed before the world began. John 3 clearly tells us Jesus was the creator. Jesus is God for heaven’s sake. How much longer are you going to deny Him.
.