Did Jesus claim to be God?

[JohnD]

Fact. Unequal authority means not equal.

Even a deceiver like you can understand that while you are equal in humanity with a judge adjudicating your trial, you are not equal with the judge's authority.

Using your deceptive reasoning, that would mean you are less than human because you are not equal with the human judge.

Hmm.

What Watchtower Boo Boo and Back Track Society people won't do to avoid the truth and to deceive others.

Wow.

 

[JohnD]

Nope....John 5:18...
“For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.”

“Calling God his Father”, did not make him God, or even equal with his God....
The Jews were wanting to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus because they were looking for any excuse to silence him. Blasphemy was a capital offence.

I re-highlighted what the verse actually means.

And I italicized your deception below.

 

[Fred J]

The Son in his previous form (God the Word John 1:1-3) who later became the Son (John 1:14) note:

The Son of GOD became the son of man in the linage of king David. The last king of Israel, whose Kingdom is forever and ever.

Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The incarnation did not take place until when he entered into the world. Prior to that he was not a Son (Hebrews 1:5b) and the Father was not a Father (Hebrews 1:a). shall be / will be mean prior to that point neither were true.

Your rating just dropped by that, because prior to that, He was still the Son and the Word. And, He is the God of all creation, even subjected to the FATHER. The FATHER was still His FATHER, as the FATHER did proclaim in John 3:16, you missed the famous quote.

 

[Peterlag]

The Son of GOD became the son of man in the linage of king David. The last king of Israel, whose Kingdom is forever and ever.

Your rating just dropped by that, because prior to that, He was still the Son and the Word. And, He is the God of all creation, even subjected to the FATHER. The FATHER was still His FATHER, as the FATHER did proclaim in John 3:16, you missed the famous quote.

Yes Jesus has a Father. Jesus has a God even in his resurrected form. God does not have a God.

 

[Taken]

Yes Jesus has a Father. Jesus has a God even in his resurrected form. God does not have a God.

God is His own God…inasmuch as a President is his own President…or a king his own king.

God is subject to God clearly revealing His boundaries, such as He can not Lie.

 

[Taken]

Scriptural testimony clearly reveals…

* Jesus came forth out from God.
(Human men do not).

* God called His Word …JESUS….that God sent forth out of His mouth, Revealed Him, in the LIKENESS AS a man.

* God later Revealed, JESUS IS THE CHRIST,
Power, Wisdom, Maker of the Worlds (ie Heaven and Earth)

* God said, He would BE A FATHER to Jesus.

* God said, JESUS would BE a SON to God.

* God said, JESUS would be CALLED “THE Son of God”.

Men can hear, read and decided and choose to BELIEVE the Lord God or Not.

John 10:
30: I am “MY” Father are one.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus claimed equality in John 5:18 and Philippians 2:6 states it as well.

LOL. Again, equality is not equal in one way. An agent speaking for the principle is STILL not the principle.

Jesus was told what to say and how to say it. This is not equality. Your Strawma argument is pathetic! The OP is not about equality but being the Being. You pretend if Person A has one thing equal to Person B, that makes Person A to be Person B.

 

[GracePeace]

LOL. Again, equality is not equal in one way. An agent speaking for the principle is STILL not the principle.

Jesus was told what to say and how to say it. This is not equality. Your Strawma argument is pathetic! The OP is not about equality but being the Being. You pretend if Person A has one thing equal to Person B, that makes Person A to be Person B.

No one has seen God + the Word incarnated and was seen by men = the Word is not God?

 

[APAK]

Jesus claimed equality in John 5:18 and Philippians 2:6 states it as well.

Your problem is you don't believe the scriptures but act as if you do.

Deceiver or deceived, I don't know which one you are.

JohnD:

The 'equality' with God issue. You are still very confused...

John 5:18 The Jews reacted to Jesus say he was he son of God thus making himself 'equal' with God his Father of course.

Phil 2:8 Jesus in the form or image of his God his Father thus making him 'equal' with his Father

Jesus knew that he possessed his Father's perfect divine attributes, his word, given to him during his inception and thus had his power, of his Father. As his Father deemed him necessary to use, and when to use it. This word and spirit was given to him. Paul confirms this fact and says Jesus did not consider it robbery for Jesus to use or experience God's own attributes of word because he had NO choice. Jesus was possessed or immersed by them. He worked the Father's plan or word as necessary, performed his will. Whether it was on the Sabbath Day or not, it made no difference.

Paul is saying that Jesus had/as no choice in the matter of being 'equal' or like his Father, as it appeared that Jesus posses his own powers, and he never did, in performing miracles. Jesus became his Father's word, remember. (John 1:14)

This is the 'equality' we are speaking about here.

It's sheer ignorance to go much further than what scripture suggests to say that God's attributes within his Son made the Son the exact same being and person as his Father, God. This is not the 'equality' we are speaking about and you must know this if you reread these two verse again. Forcing a larger square peg into a round hole will never work.

If you are really searching for the truth, then why not take a little time to read the local context of John 5: 18 by examining and understanding its surrounding verses.

John 8: 16-21:

(Joh 5:16) And for this cause the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did these things on the Sabbath.

(Joh 5:17) But Jesus answered them: My Father works even until now and therefore I also work.

(Joh 5:18) For this cause the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath law, but he called God his own Father, making himself seem like God.

(Joh 5:19) Jesus therefore answered and said to them: Truly, truly, I say to you: The Son can do nothing of himself but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever works He does, these the Son does in like manner.

(Joh 5:20) For the Father loves the Son and shows him all things that Himself does; and greater works than these will He show him, that you may marvel.

(Joh 5:21) For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom he will.(NEV)

And using the Greek NT translation of verse 21 word for word - interlinear ...if you want to be more picky in the translation.

(Greek NT INT+)
(Joh 5:18)
through that thing certainly more to seek he, she, it the Judaean to kill outright that, because no, not merely to loosen the, the Sabbath other things and a father pertaining to self to lay forth the god similar-self to make the god

Now what does this 'equality' all means again? It really means being like or similar to his God as Paul would agree NOT the EXACT SAME being as God; as you wish it. Wishing it does not make it right!

Jesus could not stop working on the Sabbath because his Father was calling him to do his will at anytime, and Jesus obeyed him, by performing all these various miracles. The Father and Son were working as one. Jesus had no choice in his heart and mind because of his unique and supernatural birth by his God and also his love and obedience to his Father in the process. Jesus never, never would say he is the exact same as his God. He was equal for sure in the works they performed together only. Jesus never works without his Father and the same is today. He always works as one with his Father, although not the same person as God of course. Jesus is one human person not God and his Father who is another person, who is the only one God.

Can you grasp this I wonder?

 

[Fred J]

Yes Jesus has a Father. Jesus has a God even in his resurrected form. God does not have a God.

GOD the FATHER does have a God the Son. (Isaiah 9: 6e / Hebrews 1: 8-10)

No one have seen GOD the FATHER at any time, but alone the Son who is in the bosom of the FATHER. (John 1:18)

The Son is the visible image of the invisible GOD the FATHER, who art in Heaven and in secret, in representation to all creation. (Colossians 1:15 / Hebrews 1: 3b)

The Son is HIS Word, in representation to all creation. (John 1:1 / Hebrews 1: 3m)

That is why, the Son replied to disciple Philip, who forced the Son to show the FARHER already in the presence of all disciples. By saying that, all the time Philip was with the Son, seeing the Son in word and action, have seen the FATHER. (John 14: 9)

The Son Himself is God of and over, all creation and to their position in function, overseen by GOD the FATHER with Him. ( Colossians 1: 16&17 / Romans 9: 5 / John 20:28 / Hebrews 1; 8-10 )

The Son Himself labored in all creation hand in hand, whether in Heaven or on earth. He also labored attaining full Salvation for all creation it may concern, where the Son made the unclean become clean. And, reconciling them back with GOD the FATHER in union, if they only believe. ( John 1: 12 / Hebrews 1: 3e )

That is why to all creation it may concern, the Son is their, 'Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlast Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His Kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth even forever.' ( Isaiah 9: 6&7 )

 

[Fred J]

Jesus has a God even in his resurrected form.

Jesus by Himself, is the visible image of the invisible GOD. And also by himself the God of and over all creation, and visited His creation to whom it may concern. ( Isaiah 7: 14 )

Jesus Himself is God in His resurrected form. He said, He Himself is able to lay down His life and able to lift it up again, and Himself made the provision for sin. ( John 10: 18 / Hebrews 1: 3end )

The Holy Spirit is the power of GOD the FATHER inside of the Son who spoke the word. And, power to perform signs and wonders went forth and came to pass in fulfillment.

 

[Peterlag]

Jesus by Himself, is the visible image of the invisible GOD. And also by himself the God of and over all creation, and visited His creation to whom it may concern. ( Isaiah 7: 14 )

Jesus Himself is God in His resurrected form. He said, He Himself is able to lay down His life and able to lift it up again, and Himself made the provision for sin. ( John 10: 18 / Hebrews 1: 3end )

The Holy Spirit is the power of GOD the FATHER inside of the Son who spoke the word. And, power to perform signs and wonders went forth and came to pass in fulfillment.

Some of this stuff you guys say just blows my mind.

1.) Isaiah 7:14 does not say... Jesus by Himself, is the visible image of the invisible GOD. And also by himself the God of and over all creation, and visited His creation to whom it may concern.

It says...

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

2.) John 10:18 means God gave Jesus a choice to use his free will to give up his life or not to give up his life. There's nothing else in that verse.

3.) Just a side note on the word Father. You do realize that the English word Father is not a life form right? It's a word we use to describe a parent. So here's a question for you...

a.) Jesus
b.) holy spirit
c.) What's the third one____________

 

[Peterlag]

GOD the FATHER does have a God the Son. (Isaiah 9: 6e / Hebrews 1: 8-10)

No one have seen GOD the FATHER at any time, but alone the Son who is in the bosom of the FATHER. (John 1:18)

The Son is the visible image of the invisible GOD the FATHER, who art in Heaven and in secret, in representation to all creation. (Colossians 1:15 / Hebrews 1: 3b)

The Son is HIS Word, in representation to all creation. (John 1:1 / Hebrews 1: 3m)

That is why, the Son replied to disciple Philip, who forced the Son to show the FARHER already in the presence of all disciples. By saying that, all the time Philip was with the Son, seeing the Son in word and action, have seen the FATHER. (John 14: 9)

The Son Himself is God of and over, all creation and to their position in function, overseen by GOD the FATHER with Him. ( Colossians 1: 16&17 / Romans 9: 5 / John 20:28 / Hebrews 1; 8-10 )

The Son Himself labored in all creation hand in hand, whether in Heaven or on earth. He also labored attaining full Salvation for all creation it may concern, where the Son made the unclean become clean. And, reconciling them back with GOD the FATHER in union, if they only believe. ( John 1: 12 / Hebrews 1: 3e )

That is why to all creation it may concern, the Son is their, 'Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlast Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His Kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgement and with justice from henceforth even forever.' ( Isaiah 9: 6&7 )

Can you pick one of these verses that says God has a God? Just one verse at a time.

 

[Waiting on him]

Can you pick one of these verses that says God has a God? Just one verse at a time.

It’s almost laughable, Lazarus was also in the bosom of Father Abraham. I guess by his theological stance Lazarus would also be God?

 

[Peterlag]

It’s almost laughable, Lazarus was also in the bosom of Father Abraham. I guess by his theological stance Lazarus would also be God?

Yeah these verses and others like them make no sense if Christ is “co-equal” with the Father because taken at face value they show Jesus is a man approved of God.

• Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).
• Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
• Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).
• Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).
• Given glory (John 17:22, 24).
• Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).
• “Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).
• “Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).
• He was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).
• He was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).
• He was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected Him (Acts 13:30).
• He was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).
• He was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).
• He was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

 

[Aunty Jane]

A JW claiming to be a Christian.

Shock horror!! I hope you understand that claiming to be a “Christian” doesn’t make you one, because you feel that the majority agree with you……just as the Jews thought of Jesus claiming to be the Messiah was impossible because he preached a very different message to what their leaders did…..the majority were wrong then….they are still wrong today. “Few” will be found on the road to life, (Matt 7:13-14) so there is no security in the ‘majority’ view. Satan has the majority because human nature does not change….and he can play them like a fiddle.

It was the "next to nothing in common" gray area that made me cover both bases.

Of course you understand that the Messiah had “next to nothing in common” with the teachings of the Jewish religious leaders of his day either…..what was Paul’s warning?…..
1 Cor 10:12….
”Therefore let the one who thinks he stands watch out that he does not fall.”

Those proud Pharisees led the entire nation into religious error, losing their place in God’s kingdom….but taught the Jews that it was the truth from God’s word, (Matt 15:7-9)….history repeats, but the “blind guides“ and those who follow them, do not “see” it. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

It’s almost laughable, Lazarus was also in the bosom of Father Abraham. I guess by his theological stance Lazarus would also be God?

What is “the bosom of Abraham”? …according to your understanding?
What was the “bosom of Abraham” according to Jewish understanding?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus Himself is God in His resurrected form. He said, He Himself is able to lay down His life and able to lift it up again, and Himself made the provision for sin. ( John 10: 18

John 10:17-18….(NASB)
”For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back.
“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I receivedfrom My Father.”

Why do you ignore the “authority” given to Jesus and from whom he gains his authority”?
This is classic manipulation of scripture…..making it imply what you want it to say.

If Jesus was God, why did he need any “authority” to be “given” to him?

Matt 28:18…
“And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.”

Just read what it says without the manipulation….you force scripture to say what it never did, to support what it never taught….just like the Pharisees.

 

[Fred J]

John 10:17-18….(NASB)
”For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back.
“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I receivedfrom My Father.”

Why do you ignore the “authority” given to Jesus and from whom he gains his authority”?
This is classic manipulation of scripture…..making it imply what you want it to say.

If Jesus was God, why did he need any “authority” to be “given” to him?

Matt 28:18…
“And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.”

Just read what it says without the manipulation….you force scripture to say what it never did, to support what it never taught….just like the Pharisees.

If you want to run with this out of context scripture doctrine witnessing of yours, ignoring the context and doctrine of the full New Testament, beware of a ditch awaits you.

 

[ElieG12]

Yeah these verses and others like them make no sense if Christ is “co-equal” with the Father because taken at face value they show Jesus is a man approved of God.

• Given “all authority” Matthew 28:18).
• Given “a name above every name” (Philippians 2:9).
• Given work to finish by the Father (John 5:36).
• Given those who believed in him by the Father (John 6:39, 10:29).
• Given glory (John 17:22, 24).
• Given his “cup” [his torture and death] by the Father (John 18:11).
• “Seated” at God’s own right hand (Ephesians 1:20-21).
• “Appointed” over the Church (Ephesians 1:22).
• He was not unoriginated. Christ was the only begotten Son of God (John 3:16).
• He was not self-existent. “I live because of the Father” (John 6:57).
• He was not immortal. Jesus died and God resurrected Him (Acts 13:30).
• He was not all wise. Jesus “grew in wisdom” (Luke 2:52).
• He was not all-powerful. Christ said “the Son can do nothing by Himself” (John 5:19).
• He was not omnipresent. Jesus said after Lazarus died “I am glad I was not there” (John 11:15).

Awesome demonstration that Jesus is not the Almighty God!!!!
I am very glad that others, and not only we JWs, recognize the truth out of the Scriptures and can clearly prove it.