Did Jesus need a redeemer? Or was He The Redeemer?

[Robbie]

That's cool... loving the truth is good...

 

[Duckybill]

Spiritual death is being separated from God... if Jesus said, "Father why have you forsaken me?"... what do you think He meant Ducky? Was He separated from the Father in that moment?

The verses I already quoted clearly show that spiritual death comes from committing sin. Jesus didn't die spiritually. He was not a sinner. He was without spot or blemish.

1 Peter 1:18-19 (ESV)
[sup]18 [/sup]knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, [sup]19 [/sup]but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

Genesis 2:17 (ESV)
[sup]17 [/sup]but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Ezekiel 18:4 (ESV)
[sup]4 [/sup]Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

Matthew 8:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

Luke 15:24 (ESV)
[sup]24 [/sup]For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’

1 Timothy 5:6 (ESV)
[sup]6 [/sup]but she who is self-indulgent is dead even while she lives.

 

[Alethos]

Heb 2:18 For in that he (Jesus) himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour (help) them that are tempted.

How did Jesus suffer being tempted? And what gives him the ability to help those who suffer likewise? Heb 4:15 provides evidence to the fact that Jesus shared our sinful human nature with all its weakness. Jesus now being our High Priest, how does his position differ from Gods? Knowing that He cannot be tempted, unlike His Son? James 1:13.

The question still must be answer...What type of flesh and blood did Jesus share?

I say "sins flesh" or sinful flesh" or "body of sin" BUT if you have him in another kind of flesh please explain :)

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

I say "sins flesh" or sinful flesh" or "body of sin" BUT if you have him in another kind of flesh please explain :)

I say He was without spot or blemish.

 

[Duckybill]

Perhaps Satan's last gasp is to make Jesus sinful?

 

[goodshepard55]

True Ducky...He was without sin or blemish...that is why He was a sacrifice...however, in His last moment He felt ever sin know to the world..all because of us.....Ever Sin....not just the ones we can think of ...but the ones we have never encountered before......He was as someone said...separated from the Father and felt the pain of that lost as well....Mercy...Thank You Lord for my life, and for the life You gave for me....After knowing His perfect love..how would we feel if He removed that from us......the lost, the pain, the emptiness....

 

[Alethos]

True Ducky...He was without sin or blemish...that is why He was a sacrifice...however, in His last moment He felt ever sin know to the world..all because of us.....Ever Sin....not just the ones we can think of ...but the ones we have never encountered before......He was as someone said...separated from the Father and felt the pain of that lost as well....Mercy...Thank You Lord for my life, and for the life You gave for me....After knowing His perfect love..how would we feel if He removed that from us......the lost, the pain, the emptiness....

Hi Shep,

Thanks for at least acknowledging Jesus was a sacrifice (flesh & blood). How did he take into himself every sin known to the world if he himself could not be tempted to sin?

What did he overcome in his own body?

Now I am not suggesting you believe Jesus couldn’t sin, only that some here believe Jesus did not share our human nature. I can’t for the life of me understand what he was, if not flesh and blood. No one has been willing to provide an alternative.

Some here do not believe Jesus could be tempted Heb 4:15; Heb 2:14, sin or die Rom 8:3 2 Cor 5:21. Although countless scriptures suggest otherwise.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

He was as someone said...separated from the Father ...

Many have said that, but in what way do you mean?

 

[Alethos]

I say He was without spot or blemish.

I agree Ducky...thats why His Father raised him.

 

[Robbie]

Jesus paid the price for our sins... not for His sins... but what was the price for our sins.. know that He paid that...

 

[Alethos]

Mark 15:34

This afternoon I have been giving this some further thought as to why "forsaken" on the cross.

Forsaken: in the Greek is "Enkataleipo" means to leave, withdraw.

So there is no doubt God withdrew himself from His son on the cross. The withdrawal of the Holy Spirit is clearly evident and without question in the record. You may also note ever since the garden of Gethsemane we see no more angels. His prayers would have dispelled any fear, as he prayed Psa 22:2,3,4,19,21,22,25,28...and so on.

The reality on the cross is that Jesus Christ needed to meet with the tragedy of sin...look behind 'Father if it be possible, let this cup pass.'...this cup (of suffering) did not pass, gladly, for our sakes remained! and the Father watched as the Son was led to the slaughter like a lamb nailed to the cross, in pain and great agony being the only begotten Son he cried, 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?' In this cry dear readers there was no Hand stretched forward to save. The Father choose not to save His Son until His Son had saved us.

That's right dear readers. While Jesus hung there on the cross nailing sin's flesh with blood and water mingled and flowed down his legs into the earth. Jesus hung helpess in humilitation, he dispised the shame *Heb 12:2* with no one to save.

However, the Father did not abandon the Son for He endured Heb 12:2 His son sufferings and grieved in His heart with all long suffering and forbearence, as He watched as His son gave his last breath. This was the love of Father and Son together and we cry out in pain and anguish as this was our remedy for the defilement of our/my sin.

Who here would make light of sin in the flesh? Let us remember the love of the Father, and the love of the Son, and the Cross...and what was nailed thereon (Gal 5:24)

In Gen 22:6,8 we see Abraham (God) and Isaac (Jesus) both of them going together -- The Father went with a compliant Son and when we look at Rom 8:31,32 which is being cited from Gen 22:6,8 we can NEVER say that God abondoned the Son in totality on the cross, NEVER. Gods involvement in the Son was constant, He never left him as thier purpose was one.

"To destroy him (sin) that had the power of death, that is the devil" Heb 2:14,15

What can we say?

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Amen

 

[Duckybill]

I agree Ducky...thats why His Father raised him.

You and I are 180 degrees apart so don't start attacking my thread.

 

[veteran]

Hi there veteran,

Thanks for this.

Yes I would certainly agree its an old idea, and I believe a very scriptural one.

It seems to me that we have verses all over the scripture that demonstrate that the resurrection will be of our literal body which will then be changed 'in the twinkling of an eye' (1st Cor. 15:52)

I understand that it appears some verses point to the idea you're saying, that the flesh body is raised too. But some verses are giving metaphors, while other verses give direct statements (like 1 Cor.15:50 about flesh and blood not inheriting the kingdom of God).

I'm thinking of verses like:

Daniel 12

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I interpret that metaphorically for the idea of the dead, not as an idea that dead people are literally asleep in the ground with their flesh. That idea would directly contradict 1 Cor.15:50 and 2 Cor.5 and Eccl.12:5-7 if that were so, and also Luke 16. And it would also contradict 1 Thess.4 where Apostle Paul taught that the saints still alive on earth will in no way precede the saints who are asleep (see KJV "prevent" in the Greek). I'm only willing to consider how the "spiritual body" Paul taught of will look just like our flesh we have, feel like it, etc.

This is precisely what the Lord taught too:

John 5

28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Once again, I believe our Lord used that as a metaphor for the dead so people would well understand that He was talking about the dead and not something else.

Job appears to speak about how his flesh will decompose, only to be reconstituted again:

Job 19

25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
26 And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God,

If one's body is decomposed, or dissolved like Paul said in 2 Cor.5, then God has promised us a new body of incorruption, "an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens", which is outside the idea of literal flesh bodies like we have today. Could be Job didn't yet understand that deeper point in his day. Not everything said by Job establishes doctrine, for he eventually admitted he didn't know a lot when our Heavenly Father started asking him direct questions.

David speaks about men whose portion is in this life, and then contrasts that with his personal hope which is going to result in him awaking from his sleep of death.

Psalm 17

15 As for me, I shall behold your face in righteousness; when I awake, I shall be satisfied with your likeness.

It appears that his being made like God is something which occurs after resurrection.

We know per John 4 that God is a Spirit. So that Ps.17 example is actually pointing more to the idea of the "spiritual body" Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. Flesh man was created with God's likeness, but that in no way means our Heavenly Father has a flesh body. Remember 1 John 3 where he said it does not yet appear what we shall be... .

This accords with 1st Corinthians 15:

51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Its true that flesh and blood won't inherit the kingdom which is why the 'flesh body', though physically raised is 'changed'. It becomes 'imperishable'. It becomes 'immortal'.

I think you've misread what Paul said there. Those who are 'changed' only applies to the saints still alive on earth at Christ's coming. To enter into the heavenly our corruptible flesh body must put on a body of incorruption, the "image of the heavenly" Paul mentioned.

There is no flesh body reference with "this mortal body" in the Greek. It's only one Greek word that means 'liable to die' (thnetos). That Greek word is about a condition of being able to yet die. It's not specific as to a flesh body. The KJV keeps the idea better for it is rendered as "this mortal" only. How we can know this is by understanding how those of the "resurrection of damnation" are still subject to the later "second death" along with Satan (lake of fire destruction at the end of the thousand years).

The whole context of 1st Corinthians 15 is about resurrection. And its noteworthy that in this context and by way of analogy in order to explain the process, Paul speaks about seeds which are sown in the ground.

37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.
43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.

Here's how the KJV renders that...

1 Cor 15:36-37
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
(KJV)

Paul's statement in bold reveals the body that is sown is NOT the body that will eventually be. His analogy is that the flesh body that is sown in corruption is not the body that sown in incorruption.

Think plant and seed horticulture. A plant contains seeds made up of a shell with an embryo inside it. When you sow that seed, it germinates with the shell opening and the embryo produces a NEW plant. What happens to the OLD plant it came from? It eventually dies and is no more. Apostle Paul gave us a lot of info about our flesh and spirit makeup with that seed analogy. He then put it in perspective about the difference between a flesh body and a spiritual body...

Ask yourself, "What is that it part he was speaking about?" when reading the following...

1 Cor 15:42-49
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(KJV)

I'm going to reveal something deep here. Hebrews 4 reveals God created us with three attributes to our being, spirit, soul, and flesh. All three parts make up our 'being'. However, because of what God's Word reveals about heavenly beings, like the angels, we know those have no flesh body, for they are not born flesh as we. So just what parts do they have? They have a soul and a spirit. That was the state of the "spirits in prison" in the heavenly that our Lord went and preached to after His death on the cross. Their type body is a spirit body, the "image of the heavenly" Paul also declared in 1 Cor.15. That "It" part in the above is the soul part. Our soul is sown with spirit into a flesh body of corruption in the womb, and our soul is raised in a spirit body of incorruption after death. That is the state of the angels, which is why our Lord Jesus said in Matt.22:30 that in the resurrection they are as the angels of God in heaven.

The Lord had demonstrated a physical resurrection:

John 11
43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”
44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”

Christ's flesh Body was transfigured, or 'changed' to the Heavenly, and His Body still bears the marks of His crucifixion. The resurrection body looks like a flesh body, feels like a flesh body, and can even eat food like a flesh body. We know that because of the examples of our Lord's resurrected Bodily appearance on earth to His disciples after The Father raised Him. And also per Bible examples about angels, like Gen.18-19.

Lazarus in John 11 was a different case than the resurrection Paul was talking about. Or do you believe Lazarus never died again after that, and received a resurrection body and lived eternally on earth after Christ raised him? Our Lord Jesus did that to show that He had Power of Life. We have to be careful with interpreting those miracles our Lord Jesus did during His Ministry as the yet unfulfilled resurrection that's to occur at the end of this world.

And in Ezekiel 37 we have a prophetic passage, that although prophetical, witnesses to the scriptural concept of resurrection of a 'fleshly body' from the literal grave.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8 And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them.

Notice that the spirit is then 'breathed into those bodies'. (Ezekiel 37:10, 14) They are animated. They are changed.

I don't suppose you'll consider how that Ezek.37 example was about the difference between spiritual death inside the flesh vs. being imbued with The Holy Spirit, through the act of 'prophesying'. Our Lord gave us several examples of a person still walking upon the earth while being spiritually dead inside their flesh, meaning without The Spirit. That's actually the type of Message with that example. Can it symbolically point to the future resurrection? Yes. But to how it will literally... occur? No. The resurrection event happens with being changed to a spiritual body and the dead raised by the sound of the Trumpet when Christ comes, not by hearing one 'prophesy' God's Word in filling us with The Holy Spirit. Being filled with The Spirit through the prophesying of The Word of God is how we are saved, but is not the actual resurrection at Christ's return.

As I understand Ecclesiastes 12, the spirit that returns to God is 'the breath of life' which He imparts to begin with.

7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

This word 'breath' is frequently found in combination with rûaḥ “spirit” which is the word 'spirit' in Ecclesiastes 12 that is also offered rendered 'breath'.

That spirit is the part of our makeup that God created us with different from our flesh body, as God said, "My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh..." (Gen.6:3). God created man with three parts, flesh, soul, and spirit. Many won't know until they die that our soul and spirit cannot be separated from each other. But our flesh can be separated from our soul and spirit, which is the meaning in Eccl.12:5-7 about that "silver cord" being severed at flesh death.

Lastly, I'd like to have a look at 2nd Corinthians 5:

Needless to say it needs to be understood in a way which is congruent with all the scripture which has come before it (which is all the passages above).

Paul is not going to come up with a 'new idea'. Doubtless his teaching will be consistent with the old ones.

Congruent with what? How you've been led to interpret the Scripture based on 'dead in the ground' type teachers? If only you would ask God about it directly and let Him show you. You cannot allow bias in favor of the dead in the ground theory to turn around Paul's clear teaching about two different bodies and states in his Epistles, just to serve an idea you've been taught by men's doctrines, probably for most of your life.

1 For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,

The 'earthly home', the 'tent' seems to be a a phrase meaning 'this flesh and blood mortal body'. The 'heavenly dwelling' would be the opposite - a 'spirit filled, immortal body'. Why is is heavenly? Because its origin is heavenly. God is immortal (1st Tim 6:16) and He it will be that gives that clothes the faithful with immortality.

Sorry, that NIV Bible translation is simply lacking compared to the KJV...

2 Cor 5:1-2
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
(KJV)

The "earthly house of this tabernacle" is referring to our flesh body. Paul is giving an analogy here, comparing our flesh body to a place of dwelling, like a house. The REAL part of us that lives in that earthly house (flesh body) seeks to be clothed with a heavenly house from God, eternal in the heavens. That reveals our flesh and our REAL self are separate parts of our total makeup for today. Our soul with spirit groans in our flesh body desiring instead to be clothed with a spiritual body house in Heaven. It's simple. And it reveals how our flesh part is only a necessary part for this present world, but not for in the world to come. It in no way disagrees with Paul saying flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, but confirms it.

And the rest...

2 Cor 5:3-8
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now He That hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(KJV)

That Scripture must be difficult to deal with for those on a 'dead in the ground' doctrine from men.

When will this happen?

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

The judgment takes place after the resurrection.

2 Timothy 4
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living (those alive at his coming) and the dead, (those to be raised) and by his appearing and his kingdom:

On the basis of the above scriptural witness, I'm afraid I have to disagree with this statement 'God's Word reveals it is not our flesh that is resurrected, but our spirit'

God Bless.

You may respectfully disagree with me, but you've got a long way to go in disproving it, especially with that last example by Paul in 2 Cor.5.

 

[Alethos]

You and I are 180 degrees apart so don't start attacking my thread.

Ducky,

Wasnt it you who responded first?

Secondly, how many threads have you so called "attacked"? I think those reading the above would certainly consider this statement highly hypercritical.

Walk away Ducky and I will do likewise.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Ducky,

Wasnt it you who responded first?

Secondly, how many threads have you so called "attacked"? I think those reading the above would certainly consider this statement highly hypercritical.

Walk away Ducky and I will do likewise.

Stop following me.

 

[goodshepard55]

Hi Shep,

Thanks for at least acknowledging Jesus was a sacrifice (flesh & blood). How did he take into himself every sin known to the world if he himself could not be tempted to sin?

What did he overcome in his own body?

Now I am not suggesting you believe Jesus couldn’t sin, only that some here believe Jesus did not share our human nature. I can’t for the life of me understand what he was, if not flesh and blood. No one has been willing to provide an alternative.

Some here do not believe Jesus could be tempted Heb 4:15; Heb 2:14, sin or die Rom 8:3 2 Cor 5:21. Although countless scriptures suggest otherwise.

Alethos

Ducky ...He was tempted if you remember ....Mark 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.

As we see here,

2 Cor.5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Matthew 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

Mercy.... for Mary to give birth to Him..He was flesh and blood.....

He overcome sin, He overcome death...I do not believe for one second He sinned...but I am sure He could bleed like the rest of us...

John 19:
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
37 and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

Please understand me in this...Jesus was sinless..perfect in every way...spotless and without blemish...He was the perfect sacrifice.....

Hebrews 7:
27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Mercy I do love the Word of God.....

Thanks Ducky

 

[Alethos]

Christ himself is revealed as coming under the efficacy of his own death.

Heb 13:20 "The God of peace, who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT".

Whatever you believe the blood of the everlsating covenant to be...Jesus put off the flesh nature and entered once into the Most Holy "through" his own blood.

Jesus was redeemed "through" KJV or "by" ESV the blood of the everlasting covenant.

Would anyone like to provide an explanation as the exact nature of this "everlasting" covenant?

Alethos

 

[Episkopos]

If Jesus needed a redeemer then He was a sinner who needed to be redeemed from sin. I say He is the Redeemer, the Lamb of God who takes away sin by His perfectness. If Jesus needed to be redeemed then we are all in deep trouble, forever. I say He was sinless and perfect, regardless of what Satan says. Jesus is my Savior and without sin, sinfulness or need of redemption.

2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

God's sacrifice was perfect...no blemish. God's own righteousness cannot abide with anything less than holy. So we are made pure through the blood of Christ. We then can be containers for HIS righteousness in this world. We have THIS treasure in earthen vessels. :)

 

[Alethos]

2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

God's sacrifice was perfect...no blemish. God's own righteousness cannot abide with anything less than holy. So we are made pure through the blood of Christ. We then can be containers for HIS righteousness in this world. We have THIS treasure in earthen vessels. :)

2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

How?

So Jesus is sin on our behalf?

Still looking at half the picture...present a balanced view of the Master...one that deals with his humanity...for it is here the great work of reconciliation was achieved.

Also in him being "made" sin in this he became the righteousness of God which implies righteousness in totality was not inherently in Christ before this work was accomplished.

Only through his own death did we (including Jesus) "become" the righteousness of God.

Without knowing it you have shown how Jesus Christ and us benefited through his own death.

Alethos Rom 3:22

 

[Episkopos]

2 Cor. 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

How?

So Jesus is sin on our behalf?

Still looking at half the picture...present a balanced view of the Master...one that deals with his humanity...for it is here the great work of reconciliation was achieved.

Also in him being "made" sin in this he became the righteousness of God which implies righteousness in totality was not inherently in Christ before this work was accomplished.

Only through his own death did we (including Jesus) "become" the righteousness of God.

Without knowing it you have shown how Jesus Christ and us benefited through his own death.

Alethos

He took the bullet for us. He ttok our sins on Himself. He carried OUR grocery bags....

I don't know how else to put this! :)