Did Jesus really mean that Muslims or Hindus would go to hell?

[stunnedbygrace]

''/but the law was there before it was given. If you don't think Adam and Eve were under the law(they had to be under some law to sin), Cain was. It was a sin to kill. That was in force before Moses. Even the dietary laws were in force.. Noah know the difference between clean and unclean.

The Israelites had to know what was considered unlawful because they had been away from God for so long. At the beginning, the Lord probably just told man the law.

mmm…I don’t think so. Paul talked about before the law was given sin was not held against people, even if they didn’t disobey an explicit command of God as Adam did, they did still sin.
It’s sort of how laws work that unless and until a law is written, you certainly can’t expect a man to abide by it or convict him. The law is needed to convict him. Now after the law is written, even if he never heard it, he’s held to it and can be convicted if he breaks it. The whole ‘ignorance of the law is no excuse’ thing.

Adam and Eve were under a command to not eat the fruit. They broke that command because they became convinced what God said about them dying wasn’t true. The first sin was disobedience because of a lack of trust in what He said. They received punishment for disobeying Gods command/law. But it reads like the children they had, who now had sin in them because they were born of two people who now had sin in THEM, were not held accountable because the law was not yet given. It’s fascinating to think on, isn’t it?? They had only one command/rule/law. Because of the effects of breaking one command, it all went ugly and rolled downhill until the flood and the law and even after it’s still heartbreaking and even seeming to get worse in the world lately. It seems like there’s been a decrease of love and hope even over just the last few years. Or maybe it’s just my imagination or maybe I’m just more aware than I was a few years ago…some say it’s nowhere near like as in the days of Noah yet but I wonder if we’re closer to the tipping point when I see how quickly it can go bad real fast…

 

[amigo de christo]

How can they go to heaven if they reject the provision of Gods salvation?

Its not about how much we love, We can;t love enough no matter what religion or nationality or faith we follow.

Its about the sin problem and the sin debt.

Exactly my friend . We must continue in the one true gospel . That alone is the only hope for mankind .
We cannot ever believe this other end time love gospel that more and more are now believing .
Stick to the original gospel of JESUS Christ . Who so ever believes in Christ will be saved , whoever does not
JESUS said will be damned . Too many folks are getting infected with another sensual version of a love
but that love cometh not from God . Satan desires all souls to burn with him in a lake of fire
thus he presents this false love gospel which has folks believing that all religoins are fine . YET that dont save them now ...........DOES IT .
AND thus you gotta know who authored that one . The devil did . We must stick to the orginal gospel my dear friend .

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Jesus words could then be understood as: “Love is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to God but by loving”.

Jesus is love, but in this verse, He points to Himself, a person, the source of love. Since He is the Creator, no other person can claim this nor direct anyone to themsleves, not Brahma, not Mohammed, not Buddha, not anyone else.

This doesn't seem that irrelevant to me since Jesus' main commandments are to love God and to love our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40 and Mark 12:30-31). So how one calls God and the way one chooses to love Them is maybe not that important.

Again, to love God, you must have the knowledge of the true God. If by strapping a bomb to your chest in a suicide mission and killing Christians and Jews, you are demonstrating your love and obedience to Allah, where does that get you ...
Heaven with 70 virgins?

I like that point of view because I just don't feel that a very loving Muslim or Hindu behaving like a saint will go to hell just because they don't believe in Jesus in his human form or because they don't conceive God the way we do.

Ah, but that is a "salvation by works" view that didn't work for the Jews or anyone else. This is why Jesus had to die for our sins. We could not get rid of them. So you think you see good people, based on your standards; but God sees dirty rags. You cannot have one blemish and make it into heaven!
You must be perfect, pure, clean ... washed by His blood!

As a matter of fact, this is how I understand John 10:16. Love would be the shepherd and people loving God in different ways would be the sheep from another sheep pen

You are leaning on your own understanding.
Jesus was teaching and preaching to the Jews at the time and meant the Gentiles (as sheep of another fold). His sheep hear His voice.

Christianity has been spreading tremendously through India and China ( both having over 100 million Christians each). This is the whole purpose of spreading the gospel to a world filled with false religions.
Many faithful loving people that you identify with may be sheep that will later hear His voice. Scriptures from the Bible likely are lying dormant in their hearts and prior to their deaths, God may lift their veils and they will call out to Jesus.
This is exactly what happened to my Mom, when all her life, she loved people, was kind and thoughtful, friendly, happy and joyful. People admired that, thought she was a blessing to their lives. She was to my brother and I as well. But she also believed in reincarnation, the universal energy force, followed Astrology and basically glorified and worshipped herself, her own goodness that would earn her salvation. She was adament and negative about priests and nuns, having been brought up in a Convent/orphanage due to both her parents havimg TB and in the hospital. Her Dad.ended up dying and so her religion.(at 10 years old) failed her, so she was angry at God, rebelling against Him for her entire life. I tried for 30 years to chip away at those false beliefs of hers and slowly she just stopped expressing her beliefs- at least to me. Three days before she died (@ 88 years of age), something happened. I was on the phone with her and she was singing about Jesus, how He loved her and always has, had His hand on her shoulder, then singing to her granddaughter that Jeaus loved her too. My daughter was with me and we were both floored, stunned. She never responded at all to Christ in a loving way before , or sang about Him, reflecting any such admiration and love. God lifted her veil of blindness - finally!

So, you just never know who, how or when God will call any of these people you think appear to be written off.

 

[Cassandra]

mmm…I don’t think so. Paul talked about before the law was given sin was not held against people, even if they didn’t disobey an explicit command of God as Adam did, they did still sin.
It’s sort of how laws work that unless and until a law is written, you certainly can’t expect a man to abide by it or convict him. The law is needed to convict him. Now after the law is written, even if he never heard it, he’s held to it and can be convicted if he breaks it. The whole ‘ignorance of the law is no excuse’ thing.

Adam and Eve were under a command to not eat the fruit. They broke that command because they became convinced what God said about them dying wasn’t true. The first sin was disobedience because of a lack of trust in what He said. They received punishment for disobeying Gods command/law. But it reads like the children they had, who now had sin in them because they were born of two people who now had sin in THEM, were not held accountable because the law was not yet given. It’s fascinating to think on, isn’t it?? They had only one command/rule/law. Because of the effects of breaking one command, it all went ugly and rolled downhill until the flood and the law and even after it’s still heartbreaking and even seeming to get worse in the world lately. It seems like there’s been a decrease of love and hope even over just the last few years. Or maybe it’s just my imagination or maybe I’m just more aware than I was a few years ago…some say it’s nowhere near like as in the days of Noah yet but I wonder if we’re closer to the tipping point when I see how quickly it can go bad real fast…

Then why was Cain in trouble, if there was no law? It's because there was.?Why did all those people die in the flood if there was no law and they are not accountable? It is because they were accountable.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Then why was Cain in trouble, if there was no law? It's because there was.?Why did all those people die in the flood if there was no law and they are not accountable? It is because they were accountable.

I don’t mean sin wasn’t committed. But Paul said before the law was given, sin was not held against them.
Cain was in trouble and appeared to know it because he seemed to think being the first person to ever kill someone was going to make anyone he ran across then try to kill him in retaliation. And…yeah, to be told he would be a wanderer on the earth seems like punishment but amazingly, God said, not so, anyone who kills you will receive seven times your punishment. So God protected Cain after he murdered…
It’s hurting my head to think so furiously about it all! I’m probably not going to be able to shut my brain off about it all for days.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

What about humans born before Judaism was invented?

If you do the math, it's like 99.9999% of all humans ever lived go to hell...

Well, I am a YEC. From Adam to the Flood was 1656 years. There were probably tens of millions killed. From the time Noah and his family exited the Ark to Abraham was only a few hundred years and most of their descendants had a faith in God, it was past down to them. Abraham was born about 2000 BC so that means tens or hundreds of millions lived before Christ who were lost. Disbelief in Christ could not be judged against them if they did not know Him. Abraham knew the true God and he was justified by faith. Christ's blood wasnimputed to all Jews who lived by faith, all who looked to the Savior, Messiah.
Now Romans 1 says that men are without excuse "BECAUSE That which may be known of God is manfest in them, for God has shown it to them. For the invisible things from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made even His eternal power and Godhead; so thay they are without excuse." ROM. 1:19, 20
It boes on and says they knew Bid but did not glorify Him, nor were thankful.
So before Christ and before Abraham, what if they did glorify Him and were thankful with the limited knowledge of God? That would be living by faith and God was likely merciful to those who did, judging them by what they knew.
I do think that the majority of the billions who lived on this planet existed just in the last several hundred years. 1/3 of the planet are believers in Christ. Now there is 7.8 billion people. Only 70 years ago the population was 1/3 that and so 140 years ago we likely only had 1 billion. During Christ' time the population of the planet was about 300 million.

 

[marksman]

So much hate in the name of Love...



This pretty much sums up the way all of you think. Didn't anyone read my post about Love being the Way, the Truth and the Life, not Jesus in his human expression?

Did anyone try to understand John 10:16?

Isn't there anyone to acknowledge that the way we love is more important than the way we think? Well if people like you go to Heaven, I hope I'll make it to a different mansion (John 14:2) where I get to spend Eternity with loving people, whatever their religion is.

And what you said sums up the way you think. So what is the difference? I read your post so your question is rather haughty in spirit. it is actually saying "Look I have told you what the truth is so why don't you accept what I say?"

The simple reason is that what you say is a product of your own mind, not the teaching of scripture. I have been a Christian for 69 years; been to bible college; taught scripture for many years; have three university degrees one encompassing theology, and my library is full of books written by notable theologians.

Not once have I heard your interpretation of the passage from anyone else. So you will have to forgive me if reject it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@Vid, I’ve already been called a heretic for suggesting that Matthew 25:31-40 MAY indicate that The King (that’s Jesus) might allow into His kingdom those from the Nations (Gentiles or those who are not of God’s people to His Jewish audience) who gave food and shelter and clothing and comfort to His brothers and sisters (that’s us Christians!) in this life. Note that I said MAY indicate. In any case, it’s Jesus’s call who He allows into His Kingdom. Not mine, not yours, not theirs. Christ’s alone.

hmm…maybe consider Mathew 10:41 and 42 also…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@Vid, I’ve already been called a heretic for suggesting that Matthew 25:31-40 MAY indicate that The King (that’s Jesus) might allow into His kingdom those from the Nations (Gentiles or those who are not of God’s people to His Jewish audience) who gave food and shelter and clothing and comfort to His brothers and sisters (that’s us Christians!) in this life. Note that I said MAY indicate. In any case, it’s Jesus’s call who He allows into His Kingdom. Not mine, not yours, not theirs. Christ’s alone.

I kind of go into some sort of amazed shock for 10 or 15 minutes when I very infrequently run across someone who appears to not be indoctrinated into…a stiff board of merciless blindness…
I always marvel at how they escaped it…

 

[Lambano]

hmm…maybe consider Mathew 10:41 and 42 also…

Also possibly Mark 9:40-41 and synoptic parallels, though I don’t know if those work in their original context. Maybe the Good Samaritan, the non-Elect person who acted as the Elect should have. The principle would be that Jesus would accept those who have demonstrated compatibility with His people. I also assume that at the final judgment, it will be obvious to all that Jesus is the King and the one to whom loyalty must given. And you know what happens when I “assume”.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am curious what you think about this - are righteousness and holiness the same thing to you?

 

[Lambano]

I kind of go into some sort of amazed shock for 10 or 15 minutes when I very infrequently run across someone who appears to not be indoctrinated into…a stiff board of merciless blindness…
I always marvel at how they escaped it…

When I got saved, I also got loved.

Thank you, Stunned By Grace. I’m touched.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am curious what you think about this - are righteousness and holiness the same thing to you?

And if I might bother you with one more question, do you think the lake of fire and the outer darkness are the same place/destination?

 

[Lambano]

I am curious what you think about this - are righteousness and holiness the same thing to you?

Let me think about that for a while; it’s past midnight here on the East Coast. Years ago I did a personal study on what “righteousness” is. It wasn’t what I thought. Righteousness is Narnia’s “deeper magic” that makes forgiveness the right thing to do when justice calls for punishment. Holiness is that which sets us apart from the world for God. There is some overlap in the Venn diagrams.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yep, same time here. Nice to meet you.
A friend of mine told me one tablet concerns righteousness ( loving others) and the other tablet concerns holiness (loving God.) I could see that was true.

 

[Lambano]

And if I might bother you with one more question, do you think the lake of fire and the outer darkness are the same place/destination?

The Lake of Fire is where the Death of Death and Hell’s destruction occur.

13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

(Revelation 20:13-15)

I associate “the outer darkness” more with Hades. It’s not a pleasant place either, as the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man shows. But in the end, it will be destroyed, and there will be no more darkness, “because the Lord God will illuminate them” (Revelation 22:5).

So, one of my other heresies is that the eternal punishment, the Second Death, is non-existence, not torture. To be outside of the sight of the I AM is to Not Be. God is not a monster or a child abuser or some tin-pot dictator like so many human despots throughout mankind’s sorry history.

Your’s in Christ,
Lambano the Heretic.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I wish I could be certain the outer darkness will be done away with. I am afraid it sounds like a worse place than annihilation in the lake of fire. I think maybe when Jesus said it would be less tolerable in the end for some men than it would be for sodom, that it means there is a fate worse than the second death.

 

[Lambano]

Yep, same time here. Nice to meet you.
A friend of mine told me one tablet concerns righteousness ( loving others) and the other tablet concerns holiness (loving God.) I could see that was true.

Nice to meet you too.

That’s an astute observation about Moses’s tablets. I can see that it is true also.

 

[Lambano]

I wish I could be certain the outer darkness will be done away with. I am afraid it sounds like a worse place than annihilation in the lake of fire. I think maybe when Jesus said it would be less tolerable in the end for some men than it would be for sodom, that it means there is a fate worse than the second death.

An eternity in darkness and sensory deprivation is also a form of torture. While I understand a moral universe MUST have accountability, based on what I see in Jesus, I have to trust that God is not a monster. Otherwise, Man might be morally justified in rebelling against his Creator, and there is, in the end, no right or wrong, only Power.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

An eternity in darkness and sensory deprivation is also a form of torture. While I understand a moral universe MUST have accountability, based on what I see in Jesus, I have to trust that God is not a monster. Otherwise, Man might be morally justified in rebelling against his Creator, and there is, in the end, no right or wrong, only Power.

Yeah…
I’m hoping maybe it isn’t forever. Just because it doesn’t specifically say outer darkness is cast into the lake doesn’t mean I’m not missing something…