Did Jesus return around 70 AD?

[shepherdsword]

Is there any physical evidence of dead believers before 70AD? We have evidence of unbelievers like mummies and such but I haven’t seen anyone present evidence of the remains of known believers. We have James’ ossuary but it’s empty.

So that means they rose? What about the dead in Christ now?

 

[shepherdsword]

How do you know these things didnt happen? What if Jesus returned around 70 AD, took all his followers, and brought them to a better world? And the people who were left in this world are the unworthy, and we are the descendants of the unworthy? What if

What if a bullfrog had wings?

 

[grafted branch]

So that means they rose? What about the dead in Christ now?

Well, some people argue there was a resurrection in 70AD. Obviously there are dead bodies of believers in the graves today, but to disprove a 70AD resurrection I would think physical evidence of a believes body would shut down that argument.

 

[rwb]

Matthew 16:27-28
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay each one according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

Some of the first century disciples of Christ who were standing there did not die before seeing, not through physical sight, but through knowledge; understanding and also believing Christ who says evidence the Kingdom of God has come as He cast out devils/demons. These first disciples of Christ could not have understood the Kingdom of God they thought the coming Messiah would usher in would not be a physical Kingdom as the days of Old, but is the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. With His coming to make atonement for sin and defeat death, the gates of heaven leading into the Kingdom of God in heaven was opened that since His coming all who are born again have known and entered the Kingdom of God through the Spirit of Christ within.

SEE- G1492 - εἴδω eídō, i'-do
a primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent G3700 and G3708; properly, to see (literally or figuratively); by implication, (in the perfect tense only) to know:—be aware, behold, × can (+ not tell), consider, (have) know(-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

The first century disciples standing there with Christ would understand the Kingdom of God has come with Christ when the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost. Just as Christ promised they would know once the Holy Spirit was sent with great power.

John 14:26 (KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

After these first century disciples of Christ received the indwelling Spirit of God, they possessed eternal spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in them. From the moment they understood they were born again of the Spirit and as the spirits of just/justified men made perfect they spiritually entered into the Kingdom of God in heaven where they have been living and reigning with Christ and shall be there until the last trumpet sounds that time given this earth whereby man might be saved has expired.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[shepherdsword]

Well, some people argue there was a resurrection in 70AD. Obviously there are dead bodies of believers in the graves today, but to disprove a 70AD resurrection I would think physical evidence of a believes body would shut down that argument.

The book of revelation only records two resurrections. The first and the one at the great white throne. Which one happened in 70ad?

 

[rwb]

Seek Truth,
Yeshua never left, you are reading the wrong words, can be confusing. Focus on the words in red His words some examples:
John 14:18 (KJV) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:23 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Matthew 28:20 (KJV) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This is not the second coming of Christ physically, rather it shows Christ spiritually sending His Spirit to whosoever shall be born again. It is through His Spirit in us that Christ says, "I will come to you."

 

[Davidpt]

Is there any physical evidence of dead believers before 70AD? We have evidence of unbelievers like mummies and such but I haven’t seen anyone present evidence of the remains of known believers. We have James’ ossuary but it’s empty.

Is the same true about Daniel, for instance? According to Daniel 12 he is to continue resting until the end of the days. Surely the end of the days haven't arrived yet.

 

[Davidpt]

Well, some people argue there was a resurrection in 70AD. Obviously there are dead bodies of believers in the graves today, but to disprove a 70AD resurrection I would think physical evidence of a believes body would shut down that argument.

What should shut down that argument is that there is not one Scripture in the entire Bible that supports it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am not stating that i blieve so. I am just stating that it gives me this impression.

Nope! Rome is Rome and Babylon is babylon. The antichrist is a person not a nation. the mark was never issued. Too many things have to happen to make these passages come to pass.

If Jesus returnd in 70Ad He is a very impotent ruler! sin is advancing and the darkness is growing. the bible clearly says in the OT prophets that when Jesus returns, He will rule with a rod of Iron and He will vanquish his enemies. this is also confirmed by the Olivet discourse and the book of revelation.

 

[rwb]

The book of revelation only records two resurrections. The first and the one at the great white throne. Which one happened in 70ad?

Both resurrections in Rev 20 pertain to being physically resurrected in body of flesh from the grave. The first resurrection pertains to the bodily resurrection of Christ from the grave, and the other, the bodily resurrection of ALL the DEAD from the graves to stand before God to give account according to what is found written in the books and the book of life.

There is no mention in Scripture pertaining to Preterits imagination of any resurrection in 70 AD.

 

[Davidpt]

Both resurrections in Rev 20 pertain to being physically resurrected in body of flesh from the grave. The first resurrection pertains to the bodily resurrection of Christ from the grave, and the other, the bodily resurrection of ALL the DEAD from the graves to stand before God to give account according to what is found written in the books and the book of life.

There is no mention in Scripture pertaining to Preterits imagination of any resurrection in 70 AD.

Christ is not the one coming back to life in Revelation 20, the martyred saints are. Revelation 20 is not about Christ's bodily resurrection. Where are you getting that idea from?

And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. How can 'they' plural be meaning Christ 'singular'?

 

[Davidpt]

The antichrist is a person not a nation.

To add to that. Whatever it is it has to match something that can be cast into the LOF alive then be tormented for ever and ever.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Christ is not the one coming back to life in Revelation 20, the martyred saints are. Revelation 20 is not about Christ's bodily resurrection. Where are you getting that idea from?

And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. How can 'they' plural be meaning Christ 'singular'?

Good question, indeed. Looks like I need to explain the First Resurrection again for anyone who want to enlightened with.

A solid basis for Christians to understand the first resurrection was provided by the Scriptures interpreting themselves, and they clearly declare that the first resurrection was Christ. But they also declare that we were raised up with him, thus having part in His first resurrection. Those are the unadulterated words of God.

Colossians 2:11-12

• "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
• Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Please, stop me when I post Scriptures that are you believe are not true. Because those aren't my words, I am merely bearing witness to the words of my God. You see, the first death was our death in Adam. For in him we are all dead in trespass and sin. As God told Adam, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And in Adam, we all died, which means that we are all dead in trespass and sin. This is the first death. Not physical death. Get it? As it is written:

1st Corinthians 15:21-22

• ""For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Did Adam die when he ate of the tree? Yes, but not physically, he died spiritually. Therefore the first resurrection from THAT death is also not physical, but spiritual. It is in Christ, as He is the firstfruit.

Ephesians 2:56-57

• "Even when we were Dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, by Grace ye are Saved,
• and hath Raised us up together, and made us to sit in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

This is the First Resurrection, when we were raised up in Christ spiritually to live and reign with Him on earth, sitting in heavenly places. Not physically as you thought, but spiritually by preaching the Gospel to the world on behalf of Christ. Again, this is the apostle Paul speaking under the inspiration of God, not I. He declares he is reigning with Christ, while he is on this earth, and sits (rule) in His kingdom. True or false?

What raising up or "resurrection" from the dead is this? If it's not the "first" then all scripture is untrustworthy and nothing to be believed! Because God says Christ is the First born from the dead, that in all things he might have preeminence. Is that true or not? These souls reigning with Christ reign because they were in Christ when He went to the cross, and were raised up with Him (The First Resurrection) to be seated in heavenly places, having been given Judgment with Power, because God dwells within them. This is what being born again is all about! Anyone who tries to tell you that the first resurrection hasn't happened yet, either doesn't know the scriptures very well or is deliberately ignoring them! Selah!

If you recall when Mary's brother Lazarus died, Jesus came to her and she said, I know he will be raised at "The Last Day". Well, the last day is the day of the Rapture, right? But it's the second resurrection, not the first! But Jesus made it perfectly clear to her of another Resurrection. The First! Consider wisely..

John 11:25

• "Jesus said unto her, I Am The Resurrection and the Life. He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live,
  and whosoever that liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believeth thou this?"

See? If you believe in Christ while you are alive on Earth, you already experience the first resurrection which is being born again, spiritually! Not physically! That is what many people missed!

Perhaps we should ask the Theologians of the Premillennialist churches today if Jesus indeed was the Resurrection, because it doesn't appear that they believe this is true. Jesus was telling her, the first Resurrection unto Life is in Me, ...it's right here! I Am the Resurrection! He says he that liveth and believeth in Me shall never die! In other words, neither Lazarus nor you have to die physically and wait until the end of the world (The resurrection at the Last Day as Martha says) to be resurrected. In fact, if you do wait till that time to be resurrected, you won't see life! The First resurrection is right here and has to take place right now, and without it, you are still "dead" in trespass and sins and so are still subject to the second death like the "rest of the dead"! But if you have part in this "First Resurrection" in Christ, the second death has no power over you. And that is exactly what Revelation 20 said about the First Resurrection.

Revelation 20:6

• "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Selah! Those who make the claim that the first Resurrection is not in Christ are contradicting God's Word. God tells us point-blank in Acts 26 that Christ is the First Resurrection! And he who hath an ear, let him hear and receive it.

Acts 26:23

• "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Let that sink in, friends. So then, who are we going to believe, God or man? His interpretation, or our own? These are the exact same two Greek words used in Revelation chapter twenty ([protos anastasis], First Resurrection. So there should be no debate that Christ's raising from the dead is the 'First Resurrection,' ...according to God's word. Again, this is not an interpretation, or my spin on it, it's a direct unadulterated "Quote." That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the 'First Resurrection' from the dead. And we, raised up in him have part in that First Resurrection. We are the Church of the Firstborn from the dead, aren't we?! For example:

Colossians 1:18

• ""And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

Hebrews 12:23

• "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."

So again, it is the witness of the Word (interpretation from God) that Christ "IS" indeed "The First Resurrection," and that we, raised up in Him by believe in him, "ARE" the church of the first born from the dead.

Selah!

 

[claninja]

Matthew 16:27-28
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay each one according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Those are good ones. We could also add Matthew 24:33-34, 1 John 2:18-19, 1 Peter 4:7, James 5:8-9, Hebrews 10:37, and revelation 1:1,3- all which pretty much reflect a belief that it would happen within the lifetimes of the NT authors.

So the question is, how does the NT present the “nature” of the coming of Christ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Those are good ones. We could also add Matthew 24:33-34, 1 John 2:18-19, 1 Peter 4:7, James 5:8-9, Hebrews 10:37, and revelation 1:1,3- all which pretty much reflect a belief that it would happen within the lifetimes of the NT authors.

So the question is, how does the NT present the “nature” of the coming of Christ?

When we are resurrected with Christ, that is the restoration of Israel. Christ's death and resurrection serves as the restoration of Israel "because" Christ is the True Israel. When Christ gave us eyes to see, we were restored (Mark 8:25) Spiritually, not physically. The Kingdom didn't come with observation, because it's restoration was with "Spiritual power."

Mark 9:1

• "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

Either this is true and the Kingdom of God 'came' with power, or it is a lie and the Kingdom of God has yet to come. Which is it? For true Christians the answer is easy. It is true and authoritative. And note that it says that it would come with power. What power?! That is the question!

Remember what we read in Acts 1:6-8 when the Apostles asked Christ about the Kingdom? Christ said ye shall receive power when the Holy Ghost is poured out. This is Christ in us. This is the power of the Kingdom coming that some of them that were standing there would not taste of physical death, till they had seen it come first.

Yes, it is hard for some people to understand, and others will never understand the Spiritual nature of the gospel, but the oft misunderstood and long awaited restoration of Israel does not come with observation, nor with physical plantings, nor with political might, but it came with the redemptive work of Christ in his death and resurrection wherein we are made the Holy nation of Israel.

Therefore, Christ was not teaching that His Second Coming would occur in the first century, as the Preterists claim. Nor was He teaching that His Kingdom would only come in the future, as Premillennialists insist. His Kingdom was established through His death and resurrection, and it continues to advance through the gathering of His Elect, while His Second Coming remains a future event. Both errors arise from failing to distinguish between the Kingdom Christ has already established and the final consummation yet to come.

Selah!

 

[claninja]

When we are resurrected with Christ, that is the restoration of Israel. Christ's death and resurrection serves as the restoration of Israel "because" Christ is the True Israel. When Christ gave us eyes to see, we were restored (Mark 8:25) Spiritually, not physically. The Kingdom didn't come with observation, because it's restoration was with "Spiritual power."

Mark 9:1

• "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

Either this is true and the Kingdom of God 'came' with power, or it is a lie and the Kingdom of God has yet to come. Which is it? For true Christians the answer is easy. It is true and authoritative. And note that it says that it would come with power. What power?! That is the question!

Remember what we read in Acts 1:6-8 when the Apostles asked Christ about the Kingdom? Christ said ye shall receive power when the Holy Ghost is poured out. This is Christ in us. This is the power of the Kingdom coming that some of them that were standing there would not taste of physical death, till they had seen it come first.

Yes, it is hard for some people to understand, and others will never understand the Spiritual nature of the gospel, but the oft misunderstood and long awaited restoration of Israel does not come with observation, nor with physical plantings, nor with political might, but it came with the redemptive work of Christ in his death and resurrection wherein we are made the Holy nation of Israel.

Therefore, Christ was not teaching that His Second Coming would occur in the first century, as the Preterists claim. Nor was He teaching that His Kingdom would only come in the future, as Premillennialists insist. His Kingdom was established through His death and resurrection, and it continues to advance through the gathering of His Elect, while His Second Coming remains a future event. Both errors arise from failing to distinguish between the Kingdom Christ has already established and the final consummation yet to come.

Selah!

So your position is that the nature of the 2nd coming is not observable, political, or with physical plantings, but is instead a spiritual event?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know this is a controversial matter. I know that many here are now going to call it pathetic, but honestly after I read the New Testament - and am simply objective - it is like the New Testament wants to tell me that Jesus returned around 70 AD. That the Beast was Rome and Babylon was Jerusalem. But somehow this is also confusing.

Jesus did not return in 70 AD in any way, shape or form. When He returns, the dead will all be resurrected and all who belong to Him will be gathered to Him (1 Thess 4:14-17, 2 Thess 2:1, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23) and all people will be judged (Matthew 25:31-46). None of those things happened in 70 AD.

 

[ewq1938]

You know what is really odd? You quote Matthew 24. But if you would consider the first verses of Matthew 24, you would realize it refers to the events around 70 AD.

No because Jesus said one generation would see all of the things he described, not just some of them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 16:27-28
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay each one according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Those do not point to Jesus returning in the first century whatsoever. How are you coming to that conclusion? Matthew 16:28 refers to Jesus's transfiguration that is described immediately after that verse when He gave Peter, James and John a foretaste of His coming in glory at which time we will inherit the eternal kingdom of God in the new heavens and new earth.

What is it about 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 that makes you think it's talking about a first century return of Christ? None of those things have happened yet. The dead in Christ have not yet been resurrected and no one has gone to meet Christ in the air yet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus came in Judgement on apostate Israel in 70AD.

No, He did not. That was God the Father.

Matthew 22:1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. 4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’ 5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

Who did Jesus say would send an army to destroy the ones who killed his servants? The king. Not the king's son. Who did the king represent? God the Father.

Rev 1:1The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

That is not talking about the entire book of Revelation. You shouldn't read that passage and then skip this verse...

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

John wrote about things that happened before he wrote the book, while he was writing the book and things that would happen after that up until the future second coming of Christ at which point the judgment will take place and the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in.

7“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[b]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him

I believe that the beast is an demonic being influencing Rome and its leaders in the first century

Rev 13:They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

I also believe that Babylon the great city was Jerusalem

Rev 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified

Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem. Babylon is not Jerusalem, but rather the spiritual opposite of the heavenly new Jerusalem.

John 19:20 Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.

Hebrews 13:12 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.