Did Jesus return around 70 AD?

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TribulationSigns

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So your position is that the nature of the 2nd coming is not observable, political, or with physical plantings, but is instead a spiritual event?

The establishment of God’s kingdom in power was SPIRITUAL, taking place at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon Christ’s people. Did you carefully read and consider the verses I quoted? You cannot simply ignore the scriptural context and force these events into a first-century fulfillment that the passages do not support. The coming of God’s kingdom in power at Pentecost was NEITHER the physical Second Coming of Christ NOR an event that took place in AD 70.

Let me make this distinction absolutely clear: The PHYSICAL Second Coming of Jesus Christ is indeed still FUTURE! It will occur at the Last Trump, on the Last Day—not in the first century. This event will take place AFTER the sealing of all the New Testament Elect (Revelation 7:1-4) through the testimony of the Two Witnesses has been completed, and AFTER the Great Tribulation.

Do not confuse the spiritual establishment of Christ’s kingdom with His future, visible, physical return.
These are distinct events, and Scripture must be allowed to speak for itself rather than being forced into a Preterist interpretation. Selah!
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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You know what is really odd? You quote Matthew 24. But if you would consider the first verses of Matthew 24, you would realize it refers to the events around 70 AD.
You think the following is talking about events that happened around 70 AD?

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

You think all the tribes of the earth mourned when seeing the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory in 70 AD? You think that He sent His angels to gather the elect in 70 AD? You think heaven and earth passed away in 70 AD? You think that just as the flood of Noah's day killed all unbelievers, that is what happened in 70 AD as well (all unbelievers were killed)?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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How do you know these things didnt happen? What if Jesus returned around 70 AD, took all his followers, and brought them to a better world? And the people who were left in this world are the unworthy, and we are the descendants of the unworthy? What if
We know this because scripture doesn't teach that anything like that would happen.
 

TribulationSigns

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You know what is really odd? You quote Matthew 24. But if you would consider the first verses of Matthew 24, you would realize it refers to the events around 70 AD.

You are assuming that the stones Christ spoke about in Matthew 24:1–2 must refer exclusively to the physical stones of the temple building and that His prophecy must therefore be confined to the events of AD 70. But have you considered how Scripture itself uses stones to represent God’s people and His spiritual house, humm?

Christ’s words must be understood in the broader context of God’s redemptive plan, not merely through the physical destruction of a building.

In Matthew 21:42–43, Christ identifies Himself as the rejected stone and declares that the kingdom of God would be taken from those who rejected Him and given to a nation bringing forth its fruits. This judgment followed Israel’s rejection of the Messiah, the Prince. The old covenant congregation, as the kingdom’s former representative, was judged, and its kingdom privileges were taken away.

Now consider how the New Testament describes God’s true spiritual temple:

1 Peter 2:5 declares, “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”

Likewise, Ephesians 2:19–22 describes believers as the stones being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ Himself as the chief corner stone. The whole building grows into a holy temple in the Lord. These living stones are born-again believers in Christ, including Jews who believe in Him, joined together into the New Testament congregation.

Therefore, the fall of the old covenant congregation must be understood in light of the judgment upon those who rejected their Messiah and the establishment of Christ’s spiritual house. The kingdom was not ultimately about preserving a physical temple made of dead stones, but about the living stones whom Christ builds into His spiritual temple. The destruction of the old order must not be confused with the ultimate fulfillment of Christ’s prophetic teaching concerning His coming and the end.

Now consider Matthew 24:20: “But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day.” Why must we automatically restrict these words to literal weather conditions and Jewish Sabbath observance? Scripture frequently uses physical circumstances to communicate spiritual realities.

The Sabbath signifies rest from labor. Hebrews 4:9–11 speaks of a rest that remains for the people of God and urges us to enter into that rest. In the prophetic application I am presenting, the Sabbath signifies the time when the opportunity to labor in the kingdom’s work has ended. When that appointed time arrives, no one can continue the work of the present day of salvation.

Winter, likewise, can signify the passing of the harvest season. Christ teaches in John 4:35, “Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.” The harvest imagery reminds us that there is an appointed time for gathering. Spiritually understood, winter represents the passing of the harvest opportunity—the time when the gathering of the elect has ended and the day of salvation is no longer available.

This is why the warning is so serious: Pray that you are not left until the spiritual winter comes or until the Sabbath rest begins, when the opportunity to do the work appointed for this present age has passed. Do not presume that the door of salvation will remain open indefinitely.

So, no, I do not accept your assumption that Matthew 24 must be reduced to a prediction about physical stones falling in AD 70, with so-called "Judean Christians" fleeing Jerusalem, literal winter weather, and Sabbath restrictions. Those are physical interpretations, but the New Testament repeatedly directs our attention to the spiritual realities of Christ’s kingdom, His living temple, His harvest, and His judgment.

The essential issue is this: God judged the old covenant congregation with stone falling (professed Jewish believers) for rejecting the Messiah, and Christ is building His New Testament congregation out of living stones (Born again Christians). We must understand His warnings in the light of that redemptive transition and the urgency of completing the harvest before the appointed time ends. The Olivet Discourse was not for physical nation Israel in the first century, but for the New Testament congregation AFTER the fall of Old Testament congregation (verse 1-2) right prior to the Second Coming.

Selah!
 

rwb

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Christ is not the one coming back to life in Revelation 20, the martyred saints are. Revelation 20 is not about Christ's bodily resurrection. Where are you getting that idea from?

And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. How can 'they' plural be meaning Christ 'singular'?

The martyred saints died possessing ETERNAL life. Why would saints faithful unto death need to come to life AGAIN since the life they have in Christ is ETERNAL? The martyred souls did not come to life AGAIN! Death took their mortal body, but death could not take their life. They were NOT bodily resurrected to mortal life AGAIN when their body succumbed to death. Instead, leaving their mortal, corruptible flesh behind to return to the dust of the earth, their ETERNAL spirit returned to God in heaven a spiritual body as living souls.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 (KJV) Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Because Christ was bodily resurrected from the grave, all who have part in His resurrection have ETERNAL life. Because Christ is the "first resurrection", the FIRST to be resurrected from the grave to never die again. The first resurrection is physical and pertains to the resurrection of Christ we must all have part in to overcome the second death. WE are of the first resurrection through Christ, when we have been born again.

1 Corinthians 15:14 (KJV) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Acts 26:23 (KJV) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Revelation 1:5 (KJV) And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Colossians 1:18 (KJV) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

When the last/seventh trumpet sounds the DEAD, not them who are alive in Christ, but the DEAD shall all be resurrected from the graves to stand before the GWT to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Born again faithful saints will not be resurrected from the graves to be judged with the unbelieving dead who are condemned through what is written. Born again saints will be bodily resurrected immortal & incorruptible everlasting life to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

Two physical resurrections mentioned in Rev 20. 1) The first resurrection that is the physical resurrection of Christ. 2) The physically dead in the graves shall ALL be bodily resurrected to damnation or everlasting life.
 

rwb

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This is the First Resurrection, when we were raised up in Christ spiritually to live and reign with Him on earth, sitting in heavenly places.

This is when believers have been born again through the Spirit of Christ. It is when we spiritually have part in Christ, Who is the "first resurrection." I agree this happens in life before we die, when we have part in the first resurrection partaking of Christ's resurrection life, our eternal spiritual life, living and reigning with Him physically on earth, but spiritually in the Kingdom of God in heaven.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Those are good ones.
They are? How do you think that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 supports the idea of Jesus returning in 70 AD? And Matthew 16:28 doesn't support it, either. That verse is related to Christ's transfiguration that is described immediately after that verse.

So the question is, how does the NT present the “nature” of the coming of Christ?
You mean the second coming of Christ? It presents that He will come in like manner from heaven as He ascended there, which was visibly and bodily (Acts 1:9-11). That did not happen in 70 AD. It presents His coming as being from heaven to "the air" where He will meet His people who are gathered to Him, including the resurrected dead in Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:14-17). That most certainly did not happen in 70 AD. It presents it as Jesus destroying the heavens and the earth when He returns (Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Peter 3:7,10-12) which certainly did not happen in 70 AD.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Christ is not the one coming back to life in Revelation 20, the martyred saints are. Revelation 20 is not about Christ's bodily resurrection. Where are you getting that idea from?

And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. How can 'they' plural be meaning Christ 'singular'?
It says the souls John saw lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. It does not say they bodily came back to life. Other scripture teaches that Christ's bodily resurrection was the first resurrection, so that can't be ignored.

Acts 26:23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

Paul gave the order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality and indicated that Christ's resurrection was the first in order, followed by those who belong to Him at His second coming being next in order.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

So, scripture is explicitly clear that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection and we shouldn't expect Revelation 20 to be any different.

So, what does the following verse mean then?

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

This verse indicates that having part in the first resurrection is necessary in order for the second death to have no power over someone. Do you really think that a future bodily resurrection is necessary in order to avoid the second death? If that was the case, then those who are alive and remain when Jesus returns would be out of luck since they will not be dead and therefore not bodily resurrected. It says that those who have part in the resurrection are "priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years". Do you not know that Christ has been reigning since His resurrection and that His followers have been priests of God and of Christ since then? That's what the following passage indicates...

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

So, what is described in Revelation 20:6 is described in Revelation 1:5-6 as a current reality for those who belong to Christ. You need to take things like this and the verses that say Jesus's resurrection was the first resurrection into consideration when interpreting Revelation 20.

We have part in the first resurrection, which was Christ's resurrection, when we go from being spiritually dead in our sins to spiritually alive in Christ. So, passages like the following talk about how we have part in the first resurrection.

Colossians 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Being made spiritually alive in Christ is how the second death has no power over someone, not being bodily resurrected. Does the second death have power over the souls of the dead in Christ that John saw right now? No, of course not, because they were made spiritually alive in Christ. They had part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) when they were made spiritually alive in Christ and they were faithful unto death, so the second death has no power over them. Revelation 20:6 is a current reality for them, so they live and reign with Christ right now in heaven. We are priests of God and of Christ right now, according to Revelation 1:5-6. There's no reason to think our status as priests of God and of Christ changes once our souls go to heaven. I know that you think the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven just resting and doing nothing right now, but even if that was the case (highly doubtful), it doesn't change their status of still being priests of God and of Christ as they were when they were alive.
 

grafted branch

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The book of revelation only records two resurrections. The first and the one at the great white throne. Which one happened in 70ad?
In Acts 24:15 there is a soon (<3195> mello) resurrection. I would say that is the resurrection that the Preterist are saying happened in 70AD.
 

grafted branch

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Is the same true about Daniel, for instance? According to Daniel 12 he is to continue resting until the end of the days. Surely the end of the days haven't arrived yet.
In Daniel 12:1 it says at that time shall Michael stand up, or take a stand. In Revelation 12:7 Michael fights the dragon.

When did or will Michael take a stand? It has to happen after the book of Daniel was written, right? And Michael has to take a stand to fight the dragon, right?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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This is when believers have been born again through the Spirit of Christ. It is when we spiritually have part in Christ, Who is the "first resurrection." I agree this happens in life before we die, when we have part in the first resurrection partaking of Christ's resurrection life, our eternal spiritual life, living and reigning with Him physically on earth, but spiritually in the Kingdom of God in heaven.
I agree. That is the Amil understanding of the first resurrection. But, what Premils don't understand is that being born again and made spiritually alive in Christ is what is required in order for the second death to not have power over us, so that has to be taken into account when interpreting a verse like this...

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

In the Premil view the first resurrection refers to the mass bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ when Jesus returns. But, if that was the case, then that would mean that being bodily resurrected from the dead would be required in order for the second death to have no power over us. But, the second death has no power over us right now because we have been born again and made spiritually alive in Christ. And this is true of the sous of the dead in Christ that John saw, also. That means we have had part in the first resurrection since that is the case for all people over such the second death has no power. If a bodily resurrection was required in order for the second death to have no power over us, then those who are alive and remain until Jesus returns would have no way of avoiding the second death since they would not have part in the first resurrection, as Premils understand it, since they will not be physically dead and will not be bodily resurrected.
 

shepherdsword

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In Acts 24:15 there is a soon (<3195> mello) resurrection. I would say that is the resurrection that the Preterist are saying happened in 70AD.
Paul was speaking of a resurrection of the just and the unjust. This requires judgement. This has not yet happened.
"μέλλω" does not mean "soon"


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grafted branch

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Paul was speaking of a resurrection of the just and the unjust. This requires judgement. This has not yet happened.
"μέλλω" does not mean "soon"


View attachment 91414
How do you know the resurrection hasn’t happened yet? If you are using physical evidence as the reason then that needs to be presented.

There is no physical evidence that Herod killed babies in Matthew 2:16, there is no written record of it other than the Bible. We believe it happened because the Bible says so. Preterist believe there was a coming in 70AD because that’s what the Bible says (at least in their understanding).
 

shepherdsword

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How do you know the resurrection hasn’t happened yet? If you are using physical evidence as the reason then that needs to be presented.
Study the scriptures and see not only HOW the Lord will return but what happens when he does as well. He has not returned with the clouds where every eye will see him. Those that pierced him have not seen him. We have all not been changed in the twinkling of the eye, So I ask you...what proof do you have he did return?
 

Lizbeth

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I know this is a controversial matter. I know that many here are now going to call it pathetic, but honestly after I read the New Testament - and am simply objective - it is like the New Testament wants to tell me that Jesus returned around 70 AD. That the Beast was Rome and Babylon was Jerusalem. But somehow this is also confusing.
It makes sense to me that these things are a matter of "to the Jew first, then the Gentile". The Jew/Israel was judged in 70AD, but not yet the world (Gentiles). Because the scripture says not only is the gospel to the Jew first, then the Gentile, but tribulation and judgment also:

Rom 2:8-9

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


That said, there are still some questions around this that remain unanswered for me as of yet.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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How do you know the resurrection hasn’t happened yet?
Because Jesus said that the hour is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected. Obviously, not all of the dead have been resurrected yet and people are still dying, so that hour has not yet come. Very simple.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
 

grafted branch

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Study the scriptures and see not only HOW the Lord will return but what happens when he does as well. He has not returned with the clouds where every eye will see him. Those that pierced him have not seen him. We have all not been changed in the twinkling of the eye, So I ask you...what proof do you have he did return?
The proof is in the Bible. There are interpretations that cover all your questions, just like there are interpretations that explain Premill and Amill positions.

The problem I see is that folks tend to say it should be obvious there was no coming in 70AD but then fail to present any physical evidence. All it would take is to have a physically dead body of David, an apostle, or any other believer prior to 70AD. Where’s the evidence? We can’t prove a negative, so we can’t prove Christ came by saying there aren’t any physical bodies of believers but we can prove a positive, by presenting a physical body and thus proving there wasn’t a coming in 70AD.

There is no evidence as of yet that Noah’s ark existed but we all believe it because we believe the Bible is true. When a person reads the Bible and comes to the understanding that a soon coming was prophesied, they believe it and come to the conclusion that it happened in 70AD based on the secular writings of people like Josephus.
 

grafted branch

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Because Jesus said that the hour is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected. Obviously, not all of the dead have been resurrected yet and people are still dying, so that hour has not yet come. Very simple.

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Jesus most likely was talking about the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Jesus most likely was talking about the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection.
No, He certainly was not. Matthew 27:52-53 says nothing about anyone being resurrected unto condemnation at that time, as Jesus referenced in John 5:28-29. The resurrection of the dead in relation to what Jesus was talking about in John 5:28-29 will occur when Jesus returns. Scripture is clear that the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected when He returns (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23) and John 5:28-29 makes it clear that the unsaved dead will be resurrected at that time as well. And then all people will be judged at that point (Matthew 25:31-46).
 

grafted branch

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No, He certainly was not. Matthew 27:52-53 says nothing about anyone being resurrected unto condemnation at that time, as Jesus referenced in John 5:28-29. The resurrection of the dead in relation to what Jesus was talking about in John 5:28-29 will occur when Jesus returns. Scripture is clear that the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected when He returns (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23) and John 5:28-29 makes it clear that the unsaved dead will be resurrected at that time as well. And then all people will be judged at that point (Matthew 25:31-46).
In Daniel 12:1-2 it says at that time shall Michael stand up, with a resurrection of some into everlasting life and some into everlasting contempt. In Revelation 12:7 Michael fights the dragon.

Does Michael take a stand to fight the dragon at a future final coming of Christ? If the answer is no, then John 5:28 is talking about the Matthew 27 resurrection or a 70AD resurrection.