Did Jesus return around 70 AD?

[grafted branch]

The glorification resurrection event occurs to the living and dead saints simultaneously when the Lord returns.
Not the same event as matt 27 as the disciples at the time were not glorified in body.

I’m not arguing against a glorification resurrection event and I’m not arguing against a future resurrection either.

There was definitely a resurrection in Matthew 27 that I think we all agree happened. I think that particular event was prophesied in the Ezekiel 37 dry bones and probably the Daniel 12 Michael taking a stand.

Where else can we place Michael taking a stand? It can’t be at the final coming of Christ unless you place the Revelation 12 fight between Michael and the dragon there too.

 

[jeffweeder]

I’m not arguing against a glorification resurrection event and I’m not arguing against a future resurrection either.

Ok thanks. Nice to know.

 

[claninja]

One point at a time is best.

Paul did explain, but not in that passage. But before just going to the other passage where he explains-- What scenario would make Paul's statement of "we who are alive and remain" not limited to whether he was dead of alive at any given time? Can you think of any possibility?

I understand that the first person “we” is sometimes interpreted as the church corporately. But this runs into the problem of “those who have fallen asleep” which is third person. Paul could have said “those of ‘us’ who have fallen asleep”. He didn’t.

The contrast between the third person “those who have fallen asleep” versus the first person “we who are alive”, grammatically makes the argument that Paul is talking about only the church in a corporate sense very much less likely.

 

[ScottA]

I understand that the first person “we” is sometimes interpreted as the church corporately. But this runs into the problem of “those who have fallen asleep” which is third person. Paul could have said “those of ‘us’ who have fallen asleep”. He didn’t.

The contrast between the third person “those who have fallen asleep” versus the first person “we who are alive”, grammatically makes the argument that Paul is talking about the only the church in a corporate sense very much less likely.

Yes, I read what you wrote about that before. But that is not what I purposed in reply.

Again, hypothetically...what would have to be for Paul's two statements to stand on their own and reconcile completely--without having to turn to literary or grammar reasoning--as the scriptures are not given as literature, but spirit.? Which I am only asking to help you think about things differently, to be open to a possibility you never imagined.

What would have to be for both statements to be true without issue?

 

[Davidpt]

In Daniel 12:1 it says at that time shall Michael stand up, or take a stand. In Revelation 12:7 Michael fights the dragon.

When did or will Michael take a stand? It has to happen after the book of Daniel was written, right? And Michael has to take a stand to fight the dragon, right?

I don't know how you are reading Daniel 12:1 but you at least need to be reading it like such, since no one begins a new sentence, such as---and at that time--unless there is previous context that explains at what time. Then you have to ask yourself when reading it like the following, is it still fitting your theories.

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


To prove my point. What if I simply said this. Are you going to specifically know when I'm meaning?

And at that time Joe will get in his car and drive home.

Rather than this instead.

At the end of Joe's shift that day, Joe will then clock out. Walk out in the parking lot. And at that time Joe will get in his car and drive home.