Did Jesus say that adultery is grounds for divorce? - Nope.
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Absolutely, Ste Van Gogh! I'm glad to hear you're in theological hog heaven. If the Calvinist comedy script brings a smile to your face and keeps the theological vibes grooving, then we're doing something right in this divine comedy dance. Let's keep the Gospel laughter rolling and untangle the intricacies of theology with a dash of humor. #CalvinistComedyClub #GospelLaughs
Exactly.
Where do we go from here.
Since the virgin loophole was an aspect of Jewish law, it seems to me the modern interpretation is that there are NO grounds for divorce.
But then I want to immediately start adding exceptions, like for marital abuse. (whatever that means) Who will define it?
Maybe divorce is just a horrible thing. There are no grounds for it. (whatever that means) Who will define it?
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Porneia has lots of possible meanings, and has been used in the NT to refer to all kinds of sexual immorality (Acts 21:25; 1 Cor. 6:13, 18; 7:2; 2 Cor. 12:21; Gal. 5:19; Eph. 5:3; Col. 3:5; 1 Thess. 4:3). Fornication by one's betrothed (or by her prior to betrothal) is not the only or even the most common interpretation. In the LXX, porneia is used dozens of times, but not once to refer to infidelity during or prior to betrothal. Hosea uses the word six times (1:2; 2:6; 4:11,12; 5:4; 6:10) to describe the adultery of Hosea’s wife, Gomer.Ah, you've brought us into the divine courtroom, examining the evidence of what Jesus actually said about divorce. In the Calvinist comedy club, let's unpack this theological puzzle and sprinkle in a few Gospel punchlines!
So, the church and society at large often claim that adultery is the golden ticket for divorce, right? But, hold on to your theological seatbelt, because it seems we might have a case of misquoting Jesus!
The NIV version suggests that Jesus said, "Anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality (adultery), and marries another woman commits adultery." But let's take a peek at the KJV translation, which throws in the term "fornication."
Now, here's where it gets interesting – fornication, in the cultural context of the Israelites, wasn't about a post-marriage affair. It was more like a "Whoops, we got a non-virgin bride on our hands" scenario. Like a biblical version of "I ordered a virgin, and this is not what I signed up for!"
So, Jesus seems to be saying, "Listen up, folks, the only legit reason for divorce is discovering your bride wasn't the virgin package you ordered." It's not about catching your spouse in an extramarital escapade; it's about the integrity of the original marriage deal.
Now, consider the Israelite setup – brides being presented as virgins, and if that turned out to be false advertising, there was a fornication loophole for divorce.
But the church today might be a bit off in interpreting this. It's not about catching your spouse in post-marital misconduct; it's about a bridal switcheroo.
So, where do we go from here? Maybe a collective theological facepalm? Perhaps a reevaluation of the cultural nuances Jesus was addressing? And let's not forget a healthy dose of Gospel grace – Jesus, the ultimate Redeemer, sorting out even the messiest marital mishaps.
In the grand comedy of redemption, let's remember that Jesus isn't just a divine divorce lawyer; He's the Savior who turns our broken stories into tales of grace. Because in the Calvinist comedy, even our theological plot twists find their resolution in the finished work of Christ!#CalvinistComedyClub #GospelLaughs
While moicheia is more specific as a refernce to adultery, porneia is more general, and includes adultery, fornication and other forms of sexual immorality as well. The context of a passage may well tell us that porneia is intended to mean fornication during betrothal (I see John 8:41 as such an instance). But not in Matt. 5:32 and 19:9. It's just unclear, and will have to remain unclear, how Matthew intended the word to be understood in these passages.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Since my wife can put 30 rounds in a 1-inch circle at 25 yards with her AR (and is not bad with her Glock 48 either), adultery could be hazardous to my health. As Ruth Graham (the wife of the famous evangelist Billy Graham) said, "I don't believe in divorce - but I do believe in murder."
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It is personal. I've seen men on this forum skip around this and try to explain why it's okay to get another wife (polygamy).
@RedFan @Aunty Jane
Yes, this word (porneia) even includes incest and idolatry. It makes sense that a spouse would be allowed to divorce so that they are no longer yoked to a person given to idolatry and sexual perversions. There are women who have been forced into prostitution and occult practices by their husbands. Do we really believe God expects those women to stay in such circumstances, even being "one flesh" with such men?
Yes, this word (porneia) even includes incest and idolatry. It makes sense that a spouse would be allowed to divorce so that they are no longer yoked to a person given to idolatry and sexual perversions. There are women who have been forced into prostitution and occult practices by their husbands. Do we really believe God expects those women to stay in such circumstances, even being "one flesh" with such men?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I thought I already did…..I “spelled it out” as best I could from the Bible, so not just my opinion.
1) She has sex with someone who was not her husband….she was guilty of sexual misconduct. (porneia)
2) If caught in the act of adultery, both parties were put to death. But sexual crimes do not often have the mandatory “two or three witnesses” demanded under the law, which was put in place so that the death penalty could not apply on hearsay.…or lies told to rid themselves of a nagging wife. Men had all the rights because women were viewed as “property”.…paid for with a dowry.
3)The first one is a general term for “sexual immorality” which could be any number of things and the second is specific, meaning “adultery”.
“Porneia” is the umbrella term…..”moichaō” is the specific under the umbrella……is that clear enough now?
Have you seen this?
It seems polygamy was common in the early church.
I'm not promoting polygamy, but this is an indication.
Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?
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No, because I don't buy it. God started with one man and one woman, and when man went off the rails, He has consistently taken us back to the original design for marriage. What men DO is not the standard. What God SAYS ....IS the standard. I don't care if Tom, Dick, or Harry claim to be Christian and have 10 wives and 50 sex slaves. What I care about is ....what does God say?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
"Gets it?" I'm not sure I get it, SS.
I like to call people I'm chummy with by name.
Whaddya like—"SS" or "Steve?" (Let's try that one on.)
Imposing the exclusivity of the original contract and the wedding night experience on πορνείᾳ seems an awful lot like textbook eisegesis to me, ⇨Steve⇦. You seem just a little overexcited about a validation of something that escapes me as having the potential to enhance the marriage institution in a tangible way. Of course, I don't assume your motive is in question, but maybe this could just be a case of misguided interpretation? (How's that for diplomacy?)
I haven't studied this angle before (I'd really like to check and see what the Septuagint gives for the word "adultery" in the 7th commandment—I should actually already know that—I'm sure I did at one time) but, at a glance, it really doesn't look like there's much to look into.
Both the broader and narrower linguistic terms used in Matthew 19:9 are exactly appropriate for what is traditionally accepted as the interpretation of the verse. To be sure, it's not a positive command to divorce in case of the broader form of sexual sin expressed by πορνείᾳ, (now you've gone and made me hafta get out my laptop). Nevertheless, what results from an unlawfully dissolved marriage after remarriage is properly called adultery, or the narrower μοιχᾶται.
I can't see any historical-grammatical grounds for the proposed interpretation of the text.
It looks like a clear-cut case of HG (Historical-Grammatical) vs HC (Historical Critical).
You seem to be seated squarely in the HC "camp."
I don't know if that was your intention.
Sorry if this disappoints.
Friends?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Is it? Polygamy was common in many cultures and it suited God’s purpose at the time to tolerate it in Israel for reasons already stated. Jews had the practice regulated in their law so as to protect the women who really had little say in what were largely arranged marriages, in a very male dominated society.....remember too that as part of Eve’s punishment, she would be ‘dominated’ or ‘ruled’ by her husband.
When Jesus reinstated the original standard for marriage, it was “male and female” and the “TWO” would become “ONE flesh”....you cannot read polygamy into his statement here....
Matt 19:4-6...
“....Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, (not wives) and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.”
St. SteVen said:
Have you seen this?
It seems polygamy was common in the early church.
I'm not promoting polygamy, but this is an indication.
And what DOES God say about polygamy?
The Apostle makes a requirement for Elder candidates that they be the husband of one wife.
It's OBVIOUS from this statement that polygamy was common in the church.
The modern church has twisted this to say no remarried men. As if that's what the Apostle meant.
So, what does the rest of the New Testament say about polygamy? Nothing.
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Have you seen this?
It seems polygamy was common in the early church.
I'm not promoting polygamy, but this is an indication.
Wow. I said "I'm not promoting polygamy..."
And what DOES God say about polygamy?
The Apostle makes a requirement for Elder candidates that they be the husband of one wife.
It's OBVIOUS from this statement that polygamy was common in the church.
The modern church has twisted this to say no remarried men. As if that's what the Apostle meant.
So, what does the rest of the New Testament say about polygamy? Nothing.
/
I'm fine either way. The SS handle is unique to you.
But reminds me of the Secret Service. The Nazi SS.
I knew you didn't mean that.
@Tulipbee coined the handle Ste Van Gough
I thought that was amazingly creative. So I had to check out GospelLaughs on YouTube.
That's a good way to divide the approach to this.
To me, the HG approach broadened the term πορνείᾳ to the point of completely OBSCURING the HC.
Which was probably to AVOID the rabbit hole I created by suggestion such heresy.
The church reminds me of a turtle sometimes. Pulls itself into the shell when it senses danger.
But not me. I run where angels fear to tread. Call me St. Fearless. - LOL
No worries. Good thoughts as usual.Sorry if this disappoints.
Friends?
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But alas, the Apostles did not address this in the rest of the NT.
Just the requirement for Elder that he be a man with one wife.
Which infers what? (there were men in the church with more than one wife)
An situation that is not prohibited to my knowledge.
And it seems to me that a man could be one flesh with his first wife and then
add wives to whom he could not be "one flesh".
When my wife turned 40, I considered trading her in for two 20s. - LOL
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Let me know what you find if you look into that.
The word choice in the Septuagint may be revealing. How they saw it.
If fornication is the broader term, why isn't it used three times in the verse.
Does the use of the word adultery twice carry less weight, or narrow the term? Why?
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Uh, you just said that to a woman.
Maybe I'll just call you Grace(ful) - lol.
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Things I'm saying to people who care about me this morning (
) :I'm getting really good at putting things on backwards in the dark.
(And Grammarly wants me to spell that "backward."—
What would that sound like?—
King Charles—that's what it would sound like.
Oh, and it wants money to stop making suggestions like that.)
And my neighbor always beats me to plowing the snow from my own driveway.
Darn the luck!
I think my 6-year-old cheap laptop might be on its last legs—
it's winking at me in places along its frame.
,
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