Did Jesus say that we are supposed to attend church?

[Marymog]

Only the Holy Spirit makes that decision and the "fruits" of his actions judged against scripture will determine the legitimacy of the calling. That's why WE as individuals (not a church) are commanded to discern by the scripture.



That is a question of the ages and a very legitimate one with only one answer in context to Scripture. Scripture is the judge and the Holy Spirit is the ultimate authority. No body of man meets either qualification. The individual is required to actually study, learn and discern. ( part of the growth process of a Christian)



What I said is 100% accurate and 100% Scripture



Simple, the Spirit glorifies the Son which directly goes back to the first line item. If that's not happening then that calls into question the legitimacy of the initial calling and the discernment process begins.



Not at all as the same Holy Spirit is in all. Any deviation or contradiction in various doctrines comes down to this:
A is wrong and B is correct; B is wrong and A is correct; A & B are both wrong and need correcting.

That goes back again to measuring by Scripture and discernment in accordance with the Holy Spirit

Plus in Romans (including verse 5) that was an admonishment to that specific crowd in the form of a request- not a clear directive to all humanity ( context is important)



Actually it is. In that context, the "church" is an assembly of believers ( in that also a small group as was common and composed of locals who know the individual) which is the exact "group therapy" I referenced earlier. Its fulfilled perfectly.



Its not a "theory" and has been proven in actual "combat" (not academic discussions) and it works very well.

Who taught you this???

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Sooooooo scripture makes it clear that some men were chosen by the Holy Spirit to lead the church and guide men to the Truth

"A" church ( as an independent cell). There is no "the" ( as defined as a single monolithic body commissioned and "in charge") church anywhere by anyone on Earth. Never has been nor will be.

you believe that no man has been chosen by the Holy Spirit to guide men to the Truth to guard the sheep against false teachers

Didn't say that at all. I am one of those. The key word being GUIDE as leader, teacher, provider etc. (not order as in a General)

Simply FASCINATING!

True and correct will do but yes it is fascinating at times too.

Well, according to your theory, I guess Everyman can read scripture on his own and figure out what the Truth is and no one can call another a false teacher.

Its not a "theory" its what Scripture says. Lets correct a minor omission there.

Every man can STUDY (goes much deeper than a casual read) and be individually guided by the Holy Spirit to determine the truth. In some cases multiple people ( which by definition is also a church) can get together and "reason together" to solve a more complex situation. God wants us to work together as all parts of the body do but HE (not any man or organization) is "in charge".

Identifying a "false teacher" is done by comparing and contrasting the content of the teaching against the written word. In that case, the WORD is the defining standard as to if the teacher or teaching is false ( as in a deliberate fabrication) or legitimate honest error.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Did you miss the part of Scripture that says they were chosen by the Holy Spirit?

No, I have made that clear as a requirement numerous times upthread.

I feel like you are joking with me but sadly I think you are being serious.

I give you my sincere promise, none of this is either a joke or in error.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Who taught you this???

It worries me that you ask that because its clear you don't know who and that's part of the reason we are talking so you will know.

I have faith you will see and understand.

 

[Marymog]

It worries me that you ask that because its clear you don't know who and that's part of the reason we are talking so you will know.

I have faith you will see and understand.

LOL....as I expected. You didn’t answer. Thank you.

 

[Marymog]

No, I have made that clear as a requirement numerous times upthread.


I give you my sincere promise, none of this is either a joke or in error.

Ummmmm....You said ‘leadership is by EXAMPLE (as Jesus frequently called them on)- not by appointment‘.

Soooooo if the leaders of The Church (elders, bishops, deacons) are, as Scripture says, APPOINTED by the Holy Spirit how are they NOT chosen by appointment?? You make no sense. You are saying two different things....That is defiantly and ERROR since you are teaching OPPOSITE of Scripture.

 

[Marymog]

"A" church ( as an independent cell). There is no "the" ( as defined as a single monolithic body commissioned and "in charge") church anywhere by anyone on Earth. Never has been nor will be.

Once again you are teaching OPPOSITE of what Scripture says. Each individual Christian church CAN NOT teach what they believe to be the Truth of what Scripture says. Do you not know what some of the epistles are??? They are letters from the Apostles to individual churches that started teaching what they thought was the Truth. Those letters corrected those churches in their teachings and instructed them on what Truth to teach. Do you not know that? So your theory that there there never has been nor will be a single body commissioned and in charge is patently and provably false of which your teachings are also.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

LOL....as I expected. You didn’t answer. Thank you.

I did answer- just deliberately cryptically to evoke a response. I was gauging your response and it was as I expected given where you are at this point in your knowledge.

If you understood things as 1 John 2:27,John 14:26 and a few others- you would have known as the sheep know the voice of the Shepherd.

I just needed to know how broken you were in your true relationship with the Lord in order to prepare to fix it.

You answered that well, thank you.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Once again you are teaching OPPOSITE of what Scripture says.

No I am not

Each individual Christian church CAN NOT teach what they believe to be the Truth of what Scripture says. Do you not know what some of the epistles are???

The individual churches are to teach the word, not their version of it with their added dogma. I know what all of the epistles are.

They are letters from the Apostles to individual churches that started teaching what they thought was the Truth. Those letters corrected those churches in their teachings and instructed them on what Truth to teach.

Yes because back then even the concept of Jesus was alien to basically the entire world- there was a lot of correction going on. ( still is)

Do you not know that?

Probably more so than you given my travel and experience

So your theory that there there never has been nor will be a single body commissioned and in charge is patently and provably false of which your teachings are also.

Its no "theory" as in something to debate and nobody has disproven it at any time- including in this conversation.

I invite you to post any scripture you think does and I will correct it for you so you may see the truth this time.

You will be a powerful force once we get all this wrong stuff out of you.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Ummmmm....You said ‘leadership is by EXAMPLE (as Jesus frequently called them on)- not by appointment‘.

Lets don't confuse leadership (the principle) with leadership (the selection process), they are not the same thing and you know that.

Soooooo if the leaders of The Church (elders, bishops, deacons) are, as Scripture says, APPOINTED by the Holy Spirit how are they NOT chosen by appointment??

You seem to have confused yourself so let me fix it for you. In the NT church post the original 12 apostles, these positions are selected by the common decision of men.

They are all administrative and various support roles for the functioning of the total church body as a unit. NONE of them have either "command authority" over the people nor do they have authority to deviate from what Scripture says.

You make no sense. You are saying two different things....That is defiantly and ERROR since you are teaching OPPOSITE of Scripture.

I make perfect sense and 100% in line with scripture- the error here is in your understanding of what I am saying.

That's fine because I knew that when I began engaging with you and I am here to fix those errors for you so you can see clearly and cast off the chains that have been gnawing within you. I have plenty of patience.

 

[robert derrick]

Fair enough... I really don't see that verse saying the Church is in an individual person since God called the Body of Christ (aka the Church) one body with many members, though.

I don't see anything too wrong with someone saying "the church is in me", except when they do so for not going to Church.

I would say the Head of the church is in me. And the Spirit of the church that speaks to the church. (Rev 2:7)

If the church is in anyone, it is the Father and the Son:

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

[robert derrick]

No I am not



The individual churches are to teach the word, not their version of it with their added dogma. I know what all of the epistles are.



Yes because back then even the concept of Jesus was alien to basically the entire world- there was a lot of correction going on. ( still is)



Probably more so than you given my travel and experience





Its no "theory" as in something to debate and nobody has disproven it at any time- including in this conversation.

I invite you to post any scripture you think does and I will correct it for you so you may see the truth this time.

You will be a powerful force once we get all this wrong stuff out of you.

You will be a powerful force once we get all this wrong stuff out of you.

True. She is very zealous and sincere.

Sincerely wrong, but so was Saul of Tarsus.

Pray for her. She could be a real firebrand plucked out of the strange fire she is in.

 

[robert derrick]

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (1 Cor 15)

It is the preaching of the gospel by which we are saved, and also by which we stand in the faith.

Therefore, Scripture says we need to be hearing the gospel of the cross preached, not only to be saved, but also to stand.

That said, ministry begins in the home:

And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. (Deut 6)

Reading the Bible and ministering to our own family at home is lacking, when 'going to church' is considered the only place of ministry.

Ministers ought not just be exhorting the believers to pray and 'read their Bibles' at home, but also to minister to one another.

Unfortunately, the modern tradition of single-speaker services leads to a ministerial domination over the assembly. I believe 1 Cor 14 teaches differently on how to come together, so that any may have opportunity to stand and speak, so long as it is done decently and in order.

So, we neither forsake the assembling of ourselves together at one time in one place, but neither do we idolize it as the only place to be preached to.

Scripture says plainly we can come together for the worse, and not for the better, so staying home would be preferable to bad ministry. (1 Cor 11:17)

Even as our holiness and charity ought be with sober-mindedness, so should our ministering. (1 Tim 2:15)