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Did Paul Preach The Same Message As Jesus And Peter ??

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by dan p, Jan 20, 2011.

  1. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi to all, and many believers , believe that there is only ONE Gospel and that Paul preached the same message as Jesus and Peter and John the Baptist .

    We know from Matt 4:17 , that Jesus said , From that time Jesus began to preach , and say , Repent , for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand .

    What the Kingdom of Heaven means is the Millennial Kingdom or the 1000 reign of Christ was at hand .

    In Acts 19:4 , Paul met disciples and asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit and they said , what is the Holy Spirit and said that they only received the Baptism of John and we see that Repentance and Water Baptism is still required and the the message has not changed since the beginning of Jesus ministry .

    In , othere words , they were still Law of Moses keepers as Acts 21:20 says , that they were Zealous of the Law .

    And in Acts 21:21 we see what Paul's ministry was among the Jews .

    #1 , In Acts 21:18 , the context is James and the elder from Jerusalem .

    #2 , And verse 20 shows that the Jerusalem Assembly keep the Law of Moses , for they are Zealous of the Law .

    #3 , Then Paul reveals to them how God had wrought through Paul among the Gentiles by his ministry , but Paul was also MINISTERING to Jews .

    #4 , Then James says to Paul that , We are INFORMED that thou Teachest Jews .

    #5 , Which are among the Gentiles .

    #6 , to FORSAKE or Leave Moses , which is a capital offense among the Jews , for stoning of that person .

    #7 , Saying that they OUGHT not to Circumcise .

    #8 , Neither to walk after the Jewish CUSTOMS .

    Paul was not following the Law of Moses , but was doing the OPPOSITE of Jesus , Peter and James .

    So , what was Paul preaching ????

    Paul had to be preaching another message , like Acts 20:24 ?? dan p
     
  2. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    Mathew 15

    [sup]21[/sup] Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. [sup]22[/sup] And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
    [sup]23[/sup] But He answered her not a word.
    And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
    [sup]24[/sup] But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
    [sup]25[/sup] Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
    [sup]26[/sup] But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
    [sup]27[/sup] And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
    [sup]28[/sup] Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

    Acts 9

    [sup]10[/sup] Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
    And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
    [sup]11[/sup] So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. [sup]12[/sup] And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
    [sup]13[/sup] Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. [sup]14[/sup] And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”
    [sup]15[/sup] But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. [sup]16[/sup] For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
    [sup]17[/sup] And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,[sup][b][/sup] who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” [sup]18[/sup] Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
    [sup]19[/sup] So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.


    Edit:
    70 weeks are determined for you and your people

    Danial 9:24
    [sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks[sup][a][/sup] are determined
    For your people and for your holy city,
    To finish the transgression,
    To make an end of[sup][b][/sup] sins,
    To make reconciliation for iniquity,
    To bring in everlasting righteousness,
    To seal up vision and prophecy,
    And to anoint the Most Holy.
     
  3. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi bud02 , and if you are a Pauline diapensationalist , then I agree with most of your post , and you are NOT , I look forward to the debate , dan p
     
  4. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    You asked if it was the same message. So is it or not?
    I gave you the verses that in my understanding clearly show the distinction between Israels time and the unconditional promise made to Abraham. All the nations of the earth will be blessed.

    Its clear you don't have a question " Did Paul Preach The Same Message As Jesus And Peter ?? "
    but have already made the distinction for yourself.
    Hi bud02 , and if you are a Pauline diapensationalist , then I agree with most of your post , and you are NOT , I look forward to the debate , dan p
    So I can only presume from your last reply you are laying in wait, a bated thread so to speak.
    I'll ask you this, was Christ work completed at the cross or is there more to be done? Such as saving Jews and lost tribes men simply because they are decedents of Abraham. If the latter statement is true then the Gospel both Jesus and Paul taught are untrue.
     
  5. charlesj

    charlesj Member

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    Dan, God's Kingdom is now and He rules both good and evil by His Son, Yeshua.



    Dan p:

    In Daniel 2 we see where Nebuchadnezzar is king. I don’t want to type out everything this chapter has in it, but in a nutshell, the king had a dream and ONLY Daniel could interpret it because God gave him the dream and interpretation.

    Daniel told the king (Nebuchadnezzar), you dreamed of a statue of a man (all my words) the head was of gold, the shoulders and arms of silver, the belly of brass, and the legs of iron with the feet of iron and clay. Also, a stone was seen in the dream of a stone and the stone was thrown at the feet and it struck the feet and the statue toppled down and broke to pieces. The iron clay, bronze, silver and gold were all crushed at the same time and became like chaff and the “wind” carried them away. This “stone” (kingdom of God) started small, but increased and covered the entire world.

    Daniel told the king, “you are the head of gold.” Your kingdom (Babylon) is fixing to fall and another kingdom will take it’s palce, “Medo-Persia.” (represented by the silver of the breast and two arms), then after that kingdom, there will be another kingdom, Greece (represented by brass, all inferior to the gold, Babylon) and then after that the kingdom of iron, Rome, mixed with iron and clay with it’s kingdom divided in parts by different leaders (who weren’t really loyal to Rome making Rome weak in parts).

    BUT, “IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS” (kings of Rome, Dan 2:44): "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.”

    (This Kingdom of God rules both evil and good today, by the Son of God, Yeshua)



    “…a kingdom that will NEVER be destroyed.” There it is! Rome has gone! (Civil and religious) The Third Reich is gone! Alexander, Croesus, Ghengis Khan, Napoleon and the rest – all gone!

    Psalms 89 speaks of a covenant with David which would NEVER be revoked: (READ PSALMS 89, a beautiful COVENANT) “...my covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness: I will not lie to David: His seed (Yeshua), shall endure for ever, and his throne (Yeshua) as the sun before me…” That covenant, the Davidic, would never be taken back or violated. There was a punitive element in it (89:30-32). Although God would “visit their transgressions with a rod, and their iniquity with stripes” He would “not utterly take from him” his loving kindness nor suffer his faithfulness to fail.

    The division of the kingdom in the days of Rehoboam was punishment on the house of David for its ungodliness (1Kings 11:9-13,26-40) The Babylonian captivity was also punishment on the Davidic line but it WASN’T a violation of the Davidic covenant (Jer. 23:5,6 etc.)

    Nevertheless, God was ruling Israel during the period of Zedekiah and Christ through the Gentiles. The day would come that a child of David (Yeshua) would once again occupy the throne and reign. THIS was the kingdom spoken of by Gabriel (Luke 1:31,32), heralded by the Baptist and the Messiah Himself (Matthew 3:2 and Mark 1:15), and expected by the people (Mark 11:10).



    Here is one of the basic reasons why Daniel was written, namely, to let Israel know that the Davidic covenant had not been violated (be sure to read Psalms 89:38ff). The Davidic tabernacle (family, line) would be exalted again in the Messiah Yeshua, (Amos 9:11,12; Acts 15:16-18).

    The heart of the kingdom is called “the church” (or assembly). The church is a small part of the kingdom. Certain passages mentioning the “kingdom” have only the “church” in view (eg. John 3:5; Rev. 1:5,6), but many passages make it clear that this is only one aspect of the kingdom (Rev 11:15; Matt 8:11; 21:43)



    Anyone interested in a good study on the Kingdom of God, go to amazon.com and purchased the small booklet written by Jim McGuiggan titled “The Reign of God.” It’s a classic! I purchased my copy around Nov 1979. The booklet is small and can be read in a few hours.

    Jim lives in Belfast, Ireland and written many other books on the bible.



    Your servant in Messiah, Yeshua,

    Love,

    Charles







     
  6. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi bud02 , and if you missed the question , it is , did Jesus , Peter preach the same message as Paul and the correct amswer is NO ,

    And if you were a Dispensationalist , which now I know that you are NOT , I would have gotten a different answer .


    I believe that Christ died ONLY once and what Jesus said in John 19:30 , " it is finished " is in the Greek Prefect Tense , which past Action which was in the Cross and the Present , Continuing Action , which means he is saving all without going back on the Cross. dN P
     
  7. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    Its cl;ear you don't know me. I am not a Dispensationalist. Darby and Scholfield have done a great disservice to the church as a whole. Maybe you should look at my long long replies to Veteran and Watchman about Danial Ch 9 and Mathew 23 &24. A Dispensationalist, I am NOT.
     
  8. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi Charles , and I believe what you have written is bibical , BUT the context is Jewish .

    We are " in Christ " and part of the Body of Christ with Christ as the head .

    Will you answer the OP ??? dan p
     
  9. bud02

    bud02 New Member

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    http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/12458-daniels-70th-week-warnings/page__view__findpost__p__87174__fromsearch__1
     
  10. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    Paul preached the same message as Christ and the other apostles. Just because the Jews continued to follow the Law does not mean Paul preached another message. Look at the Great Commission isn Mathew 28, Jesus told the apostles to go to the "nations", the Greek word is also translated Gentiles. So, Jesus told the apostles to go to the Gentiles and baptize them and teach them all that He had commanded them.
     
  11. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    Exactly.

    Let's also never mind the fact of Peter considering Paul's message to be legitimate as well.

    Peter even being one whom Paul rebuked at once! Peter didn't go back to his old ways but later supported Paul's teachings.
     
  12. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi bud02 , and it is a question , did Paul preach the same message as Jesus and Peter or what James taught and the answer is NO ,

    And Jesus , Peter and James were all Law keepers and should be a given .

    I , then pointed to Acts 20:24 , " which I have received of the Lord Jesus , TO TESTIFY the Gospel of the Grace of God .

    These are 2 different messages , are they not ????

    Acts 21:21 shows that Paul was teaching opposite what the 12 taught , and it is Law against GRACE , pure and simple , dan p
     
  13. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    Let's see what Peter (the "law-keeper" once rebuked by Paul) has to say about Paul.



    And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.



    Peter considered Paul's writings to be full of wisdom given by God, complex to where the ignorant can't even understand it, and finally he considered it to be Scripture.


    I'm sorry but your argument is full of fail.
     
  14. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi Texus , but my reading skills say different and I believe that the book and that verse Peter is refering to in verse 15 , is the book of Hebrews .

    And in 2 Peter 3:16 , Peter is says that I Peter as a Law of Moses keeper , that the Revelation that Paul has received are HARD for this law keeper to understand .

    Which THEY the people of his day and THOSE of today are Unlearned , because they refuse to study Paul and to follow his teaching as , " Be ye followers of me , even as I also am of Christ and refuse to heed his warning on 2 Tin 2:15 .

    And , Peter also says that those of today are not only Unlearned , but also Unstable or not stedfast , no anchor , and Wrest ot twist the bible to their own destruction .

    I will never see that I have failed , but that you have failed , dan p
     
  15. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    It doesn't matter what letter he was referring to. Fact is that he considered it wisdom-of-God-breathed-inspired-Scripture.
     
  16. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi TexUs , and that is right , but I also wrote what 2 Peter 3 :16 really is saying ! dan p
     
  17. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    Your assertion is Paul preached another message.
    Peter affirms what Paul preached.

    Now you are back pedaling to say Paul actually preached the same message but it was misunderstood?

    Flip floppers are notorious for not knowing what they're talking about.
     
  18. prism

    prism Blood-Soaked

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    I am not that proficient on the subject but here is a clip that makes sense taken from here...http://www.matthewmcgee.org/2gospels.html

    Peter's Gospel and Paul's Gospel

    Both Peter and Paul taught that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, that he was crucified, and that he rose from the dead on the third day. So one might ask, "What is the difference between their two gospels?"

    Earlier in this article, we discussed rather thoroughly the difference that Paul spoke to Gentiles and Jews whereas, Peter spoke to Israel only, with the one exception of the house of Cornelius.

    A second key difference is that in making the offer of the kingdom to Israel, Peter spoke of the resurrection in order to show that the Lord was alive and could still return to be Israel's King (Acts 3:19-21). Christ's death and resurrection, the sign of Jonah, were stated as evidence. However, Peter was not proclaiming them as part of the gospel of the kingdom. But Paul taught the that the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are essential parts of our gospel of grace.

    A third difference is that Paul taught that Jesus Christ died as a sacrifice for our sins, and that we are cleansed by His blood. But in all of his sermons in the early chapters of Acts, Peter made no mention of this.

    Decades later, near the end of their lives, Peter and John each wrote of the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:2-3, 18-21, 2:24, 5:12 and 1 John 1:7 and 2:2). However, in the early parts of Acts, they never mention the blood, sacrifice, propitiation, or that Jesus Christ died for our sins. It had not yet been revealed.

    Paul also told the Gentiles that Jesus Christ willingly gave up his life for our sins (Galatians 1:4). Whereas, Peter repeatedly accuses the Jews of murder. One example is Acts 2:36, where Peter says, "... Jesus, whom ye crucified ...." Peter also says in Acts 3:14-15, "But ye denied the Holy One ... and killed the Prince of life ...." Then in Acts 5:30 he says, "... Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Finally Stephen, who also preached Peter's gospel, told the Jews in Acts 7:52, "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers ...."

    But Paul, on the other hand, constantly stressed the sacrificial nature of the death of Jesus Christ, "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation (appeasing sacrifice) through faith in his blood ..." (Romans 3:25). The blood of Christ is not mentioned by the Peter and the other 11 apostles in Acts, yet it is a vital part of the gospel of grace. One must conclude that either the twelve were negligent, or that it had not yet been revealed to them that Christ died a sacrificial death. Certainly the apostles, filled with the Holy Spirit, did not dispense an incomplete gospel, or those that heard it would have been without hope. So the sacrificial nature of Christ's death had not been revealed to them by God, just as we saw earlier in the section titled "The Mystery of the Gospel of Grace". In reference to the cross, Peter does explain in Acts 3:18 that "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled." However, Peter does not link Christ's death to the justification of sinners.

    It is of utmost importance to realize that Paul's letters are filled with the fact that the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was the sacrifice that paid for our sins. So we will allow a page or so here to look at a few example passages.

    In Romans 5:6-11 Paul writes, "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." So many people think that they have to clean up their life first before they can be saved. But this passage clearly shows that Christ did not die for the righteous, but "for the ungodly". Otherwise, His death would have been in vain, for Romans 3:10 says, "... there is none righteous, no not one."

    In Ephesians 1:7 Paul writes of Jesus Christ "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace ...." Then in Ephesians 2:12-13 Paul explains how we were "... without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

    Many other passages in Paul's letters emphasize this same point, including:

    Colossians 1:20, "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

    1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

    Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

    Romans 8:31-32, "... If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all ...."

    Romans 4:24-25, "... if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

    1 Timothy 2:5-6, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all ...."

    Ephesians 5:1-2, "Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour."

    2 Corinthians 5:21, "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

    ********************************************************************************************************************

    You have to grapple with the prophetic program involving the Kingdom/Israel on the one hand and the Mystery/Body of Christ as revealed to Paul on the other. Two separate programs but both linked at Calvary.
     
  19. dan p

    dan p New Member

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    Hi prism and you are the only that I see making any sense at all . Have you been reading who ???

    I started to read C R Stam and Charles Baker and the best is Robert C Brock who is at the top as a bible teacher .

    If these dispensationalist do not make any sense to you , disregard what I have written , dan p
     
  20. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    I believe we have discussed this before. Please show me where Jesus or the apostle taught Christians that it ws necessary to keep the Law.
     
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