Dispensationalism

[Dave L]

Dave, no offense, but if scripture commands that as much as is in us we are to be at peace with all men then you and I had better to stay away from each other. You incessantly make demands for people to quote scriptures but leave out their interpretations, as if you alone have the sole right to do that, which I find unbelievably offensive in the extreme.

If I desire to discuss something with you I will post you directly. Otherwise, I suggest you not tempt me.

Asking as courteously as I know how.
Hidden In Him

If you do not want to honor my sincere request for documentation for your position, I accept your refusal.

 

[Dave L]

Hello Dave L

I must contradict you, for there is no resurrection when we are born from above.

Those two references speak of our identification with Christ, in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection and ascension to God's right hand, but that is in God's sight, in spirit: we have yet to be reckoned as being 'asleep in Christ' before that day of God's choosing, when we will appear with Him in glory. Our life is hid with Christ in God until that day.

To speak of it as a resurrection is deceptive.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I am not sure I understand you. But Paul most certainly described the new birth as a resurrection. “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” (Ephesians 2:1)

“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” (Colossians 2:12–13)

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you do not want to honor my sincere request for documentation for your position, I accept your refusal.

Petty, immature, and childish response, which is why you don't belong having conversations with adults. I have asked you respectfully to stop posting me, yet you persist with your childish little games, which I detest. Congratulations on "honoring my request."

 

[Dave L]

Petty, immature, and childish response, which is why you don't belong having conversations with adults. I have asked you respectfully to stop posting me, yet you persist with your childish little games, which I detest. Congratulations on "honoring my request."

You seem to have some pent up hatred for me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Come on man. If we see someone is weary, needs a break, why push it??

 

[Hidden In Him]

You seem to have some pent up hatred for me.

I get over things quickly after I've dealt with sinners like yourself. Feel free to keep posting me after I've asked you three times not to.

 

[Dave L]

I get over things quickly after I've dealt with sinners like yourself. Feel free to keep posting me after I've asked you three times not to.

Truth has nothing to fear.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Truth has nothing to fear.

Dave, with every post you prove what kind of person you are. It has nothing to do with the truth. But I'm sure you will ignore my 4th request like you did every other one.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, with every post you prove what kind of person you are. It has nothing to do with the truth. But I'm sure you will ignore my 4th request like you did every other one.

We always judge ourselves when we judge other's motives. Because, we only know our own heart, and assume their motives are the same as ours.

 

[Hidden In Him]

We always judge ourselves when we judge other's motives. Because, we only know our own heart, and assume their motives are the same as ours.

Yes, yes. "Pure as the driven snow." That explains why you appear to have no conscience about the things you do. I believe there's a term for it; a particular psychological condition. Only in your case it's a type of justification, so maybe in some ways that's even worse.

Continue justifying yourself, but you will not be your own judge, and neither will your "conscience."

 

[Dave L]

Yes, yes. "Pure as the driven snow." That explains why you appear to have no conscience about the things you do. I believe there's a term for it; a particular psychological condition. Only in your case it's a type of justification, so maybe in some ways that's even worse.

Continue justifying yourself, but you will not be your own judge, and neither will your "conscience."

If you want me to disappear, why do you keep dredging me up?

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you want me to disappear, why do you keep dredging me up?

I didn't post you, Dave. You posted me, and I requested that you stop... four times in fact, all of which you ignored. You are intelligent, but I honestly think something's a little wrong with you. I don't dislike you, but this is precisely why I ask you politely not to pester me. I have to take valuable time away from other things to have to go around and around with you on nonsense, and it never ends.

Hopefully, if we do have another conversation in the future it will be a good one. But for now please stop posting me.

 

[Dave L]

I didn't post you, Dave. You posted me, and I requested that you stop... four times in fact, all of which you ignored. You are intelligent, but I honestly think something's a little wrong with you. I don't dislike you, but this is precisely why I ask you politely not to pester me. I have to take valuable time away from other things to have to go around and around with you on nonsense, and it never ends.

Hopefully, if we do have another conversation in the future it will be a good one. But for now please stop posting me.

Then stop reactivating our discussion.

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos, I've watched some of the video, and Steve Gregg does indeed seem like a nice fellow, but he's misrepresenting the truth about Dispensationalism's origins. He asserts (incessantly) that Darby was the founder of Dispensational thought, and doesn't seem to be aware that Irenaeus was teaching it in the 2nd century in great detail, and with surprising accuracy.

I can provide some quotations if you're interested.

Sure. I like Irenaeus against the gnostics...

 

[charity]

Thanks for taking time with this. I don't see any direct mention of a 7 year tribulation or pre-trib rapture. But you read these concepts into passages that do not lend themselves to that interpretation. For example; Paul places the Rapture after the resurrection of the Just. And Jesus places this on the last day. Direct quotes follow.

“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:13–17)

“Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”” (John 11:24)


“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28–29)


“Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake— some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence.” (Daniel 12:2)


“And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.” (John 6:39)ESV

Hello @Dave L,

You did not see any mention of the 7 year tribulation period, because as my opening remarks showed in #212, I was not dealing with that subject. I was discussing your other point entitled, 'the pre-tribulation rapture'.

The verses I gave in that entry needed to be considered carefully, taking into consideration the points of comparison between them, for they certainly were not un-related to the subject under consideration as you assert.

You thanked me for taking the time to enter, but your remarks show that you have not actually considered what I actually had to say, which is a shame.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Hello @Dave L.

You have referenced verses which relate to a resurrection which will takes place, 'on the last day'. So I looked them up, and found that this expression is only found in the gospel of John. It is used 5 times, in 6:39, 44 & 54; and in chapter 11:23, & 12:48:-

'For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.'
(John 6:38,39)

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.'
(John 6:44)

'Then Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;
and I will raise him up at the last day."'
(John 6:53-54)

'Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
Martha saith unto him," I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
(John 11:23-24)

* Martha was speaking of the hope of Israel, but little did she know that her Saviour would be revealing Himself as the resurrection and the life in the verses which followed in John 11:25-27. Praise God!

'And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not:
for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.'
(John 12:47-48)

* These verses all speak of 'the hope of Israel', and refers to the coming of the Messiah, and the term, 'the last day', is used idiomatically of 'the age to come.' which could have taken place at the end of that dispensation, had Israel repented, but now awaits a future day. Compare 1 John 2:18:-

'Little children, it is the last time:
and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
even now are there many antichrists;
whereby we know that it is the last time.'
(1John 2:18)

* See also Acts 3:19-21:-

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
.. when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
.... And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
...... Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
........ which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.'
(Act 3:19-21)

* I have found this a blessing, thank you.

Praise God! - Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Enoch111]

So I looked them up, and found that this expression is only found in the gospel of John. It is used 5 times, in 6:39, 44 & 54; and in chapter 11:23, & 12:48

And it is only after one studies the entire Bible that one discovers that Christ's use of "the last day" is a metaphor for the end of the age.

It is NOT a 24 hours period, but a period of time which extends for at least 1,007 years. That is because the resurrection of the righteous (in two phases) and the resurrection of the damned (at the Great White Throne) are separated by at least 1,007 years, and both are said to occur on "the last day".

THE RESURRECTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:40)

THE RESURRECTION OF THE UNRIGHTEOUS
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (Jn 12:48)

 

[Dave L]

Hello @Dave L.

You have referenced verses which relate to a resurrection which will takes place, 'on the last day'. So I looked them up, and found that this expression is only found in the gospel of John. It is used 5 times, in 6:39, 44 & 54; and in chapter 11:23, & 12:48:-

'For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.'
(John 6:38,39)

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.'
(John 6:44)

'Then Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life;
and I will raise him up at the last day."'
(John 6:53-54)

'Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
Martha saith unto him," I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
(John 11:23-24)

* Martha was speaking of the hope of Israel, but little did she know that her Saviour would be revealing Himself as the resurrection and the life in the verses which followed in John 11:25-27. Praise God!

'And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not:
for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.'
(John 12:47-48)

* These verses all speak of 'the hope of Israel', and refers to the coming of the Messiah, and the term, 'the last day', is used idiomatically of 'the age to come.' which could have taken place at the end of that dispensation, had Israel repented, but now awaits a future day. Compare 1 John 2:18:-

'Little children, it is the last time:
and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
even now are there many antichrists;
whereby we know that it is the last time.'
(1John 2:18)

* See also Acts 3:19-21:-

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
.. when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
.... And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
...... Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
........ which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.'
(Act 3:19-21)

* I have found this a blessing, thank you.

Praise God! - Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks for your time. If you look into Romans 11, God removed the unbelievers from Israel (Jesus and those who trust in him). And he will reattach any of the unbelievers, but only through faith in Christ. In this way, all Israel will be saved. That is, all of God's elect from among the gentiles and Jews will be saved in this way. Now here's the interesting part. Israel's restoration takes place in the resurrection from the dead, of believers on the last day, into the New Heavens and Earth. Where we remain forever with the Lord. I have scripture for this if interested.

 

[Dave L]

Hello @Dave L,

You did not see any mention of the 7 year tribulation period, because as my opening remarks showed in #212, I was not dealing with that subject. I was discussing your other point entitled, 'the pre-tribulation rapture'.

The verses I gave in that entry needed to be considered carefully, taking into consideration the points of comparison between them, for they certainly were not un-related to the subject under consideration as you assert.

You thanked me for taking the time to enter, but your remarks show that you have not actually considered what I actually had to say, which is a shame.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

But no scripture states there is a pre-trib rapture. Paul only directly mentions a rapture once, at the end of the world following the resurrection of believers. Did you know Walvoord, and LaHaye, admit in writing no direct support from scripture exists for any of the rapture theories (documentation available)? The only rapture is according to Paul and Jesus, on the last day after the resurrection.

 

[bbyrd009]

And it is only after one studies the entire Bible that one discovers that Christ's use of "the last day" is a metaphor for the end of the age.

you are supposed to die at baptism, and your new age begins then wadr.
Christ is not inviting you into Death More Abundantly