Since you know next to nothing about Bible prophecy, you should remain silent until you educate yourself. Sometimes silence is golden.This is NOT there in Scripture and can only be discovered by those who accept man made systems of theology.
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Since you know next to nothing about Bible prophecy, you should remain silent until you educate yourself. Sometimes silence is golden.This is NOT there in Scripture and can only be discovered by those who accept man made systems of theology.
Since you know next to nothing about Bible prophecy, you should remain silent until you educate yourself. Sometimes silence is golden.
Those who have not been clouded by prejudice will take me seriously.Such gall. You have it backwards as usual. How can you expect anyone to take you seriously?
Show any biblical evidence that there are 2 Jerusalems in eternity.
What if it is not a "man made system" but the way that God has presented His revelations to man and this is "the mystery of His will"?
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation* of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him (Eph 1:9,10)
HELPS Word-studies (from Bible Hub for Strong's 3622)
*3622 oikonomía (from 3621 /oikonoméō, "a steward, managing a household") – properly, a stewardship, management (administration), i.e. where a person looks after another's affairs (resources).
[A "dispensation" can also refer to a special period of time (management). But this is a secondary (not primary) meaning of 3622 (oikonomía).]
1. So while the primary meaning of oikonomia is a stewardship or an administration, the secondary meaning is a special period of time.
2. Now if there is a dispensation of the "fulness (or completion) of times" (which is the eternal state in the Kingdom of God and Christ), it follows that there have been other dispensations or periods of time before that.
3. The previous dispensations generally coincide with God's covenants as shown in Scripture. There was no covenant with Adam (as many claim), but there were covenants with Noah and Abraham, and then with Israel (the Old Covenant), followed by the New Covenant ratifed with the shed blood of Christ. And now we live in the Church Age or the Gospel Age under the New Covenant, but that is not where everything ends. We still expect the Resurrection/Rapture, the second coming of Christ, the Millennium, and then the establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth (which will usher in the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times).
4. All of this is discovered by a careful study of the Word of God, and no honest person can deny that these are the things revealed in Scripture. What is also clearly revealed in Scripture is that God has an eternal plan and purpose for redeemed and restored Israel ON EARTH, which runs parallel to God's eternal plan and purpose for the Church IN THE NEW JERUSALEM. The two Jerusalems will exist for eternity and will also be in communication with each other. This is all there in Scripture and can be discovered by those who reject man made systems of theology.
Those who have not been clouded by prejudice will take me seriously.
PROPHECIES OF ETERNAL JERUSALEM (ZION) UNDER GOD AND CHRIST
So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy. And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction. Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem. Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem. (Zech 1:14-17)
And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her...Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. (Zech 2:4,5,10-12)
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; [CHRIST] and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. (Zech 6:12,13)
Again the word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying,Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. (Zech 8:1-8)
Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities: And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also. Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you. (Zech 8:20-23)
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited... And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain... In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. (Zech 14:6-11;16,17, 20,21)
And there are many other prophecies which I have not even posted here or in other threads. As I said earlier, educate yourself in Bible prophecy before you say another word.
Observable or not, it is. And anyone who is in Christ, anyone who is, or becomes, part of the Church, becomes part of the Kingdom. Wouldn't you say?Jesus' kingdom comes without observation. “Now when the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus performed, they began to say to one another, “This is certainly the Prophet who is to come into the world.” Then Jesus, because he knew they were going to come and seize him by force to make him king, withdrew again up the mountainside alone.” (John 6:14–15)
Absolutely. We are in the kingdom and it's forever. not for a measly 1000 years of sickness and suffering.Observable or not, it is. And anyone who is in Christ, anyone who is, or becomes, part of the Church, becomes part of the Kingdom. Wouldn't you say?
Absolutely. We are in the kingdom and it's forever. not for a measly 1000 years of sickness and suffering.
I've never understood what the purpose of the "millennium" is.
Apart from not seeing it supported in scripture,
why would God set us up in what, essentially, is a "do over"?
Christ comes and reinstates the world as it was, more or less, in the garden. No more getting eaten by lions, tigers and bears...oh my. People don't die because of sin (except some clause about hitting 100 and not believing in Christ...but that's only for those in 'natural bodies', which, goodness, don't get me started, has so many issues!). So, essentially all is wonderful...except, like in Eden, people can, and will, choose to sin and rebel against God and against Jesus. So much so that at the end of this period, when Satan is 'released', there's another massive battle again...and then it's really over. Basically, it's like all of human history stuffed into 1000 years. What's they point?
I know their answers: to give others a chance to choose. To fulfill the promises to Israel for an earthly kingdom...etc.
But when I weigh it against scriptural texts, I find those answers lacking. God gives us one chance to chose...this life. No one makes it through Christ's return without being judged and given their new bodies. Israel HAS received all it's promises in their Messiah. "All promises are yes and amen" in Christ. Will they receive more? Perhaps, but not a single person, Jew or Gentile, can point to anything that is left undone or unfulfilled in Christ. He is everything. And that's why there won't be a literal 1000 year earthly reign. He already reigns and will never stop reigning. His reign stretches across both unseen and seen realms. We cannot limit it.
I've read it, thanks. And I think building a doctrine as 'solid' as the Millennium...as many have...on that chapter alone...on that reference to 1000 years alone, is not reasonable. Not when we consider the usage of numbers throughout the book (symbolic), or the implications a literal millennium would have on some of the very clear teaching throughout the rest of scripture...scripture that is consider much more 'understandable' than Revelation.Huh? Read Revelations 20
This presupposes that I haven't asked for clarity...or been given it.I agree, you lack understanding of the knowledge.
God is the one to ask for His Understanding.
God Bless,
taken
What makes you think that the doctrine of the Millennium is based upon Revelation 20 exclusively? Have you searched the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation to find the underlying truth of this expressed throughout the Bible?I've read it, thanks. And I think building a doctrine as 'solid' as the Millennium...as many have...on that chapter alone...on that reference to 1000 years alone, is not reasonable.
I think a helpful thing to remember is that the church is a heavenly people heading for the Rapture in the air, while Israel is an earthly people, which will enter into earthly blessings.What makes you think that the doctrine of the Millennium is based upon Revelation 20 exclusively? Have you searched the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation to find the underlying truth of this expressed throughout the Bible?
The first thing to note about the Millennium is that the Holy Spirit -- the Author of Revelation -- repeats "a thousand years" and "the thousand years" SIX TIMES within seven verses. When something is repeated even twice, it is for emphasis. So what God is saying is that you (or anyone else) cannot lightly walk away from the truth of the Millennium. Hence the repetition.
You've quoted many verses without putting them in proper sequence or perspective. Once you put them in their proper sequence, the Millennium will fit right in. Indeed it occurs chronologically between the second coming of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment. Which is then followed by the New Heavens and the New Earth.
"The end of the age (this present evil age)" is signified by the second coming of Christ. "The age to come" includes the Millennium, the New Heavens and the New Earth, and the eternal state.
So for anyone to claim that the Millennium is presently in progress when we know that this is "the present evil age" means self-delusion and fantasy.
I've read it, thanks. And I think building a doctrine as 'solid' as the Millennium...as many have...on that chapter alone...on that reference to 1000 years alone, is not reasonable. Not when we consider the usage of numbers throughout the book (symbolic), or the implications a literal millennium would have on some of the very clear teaching throughout the rest of scripture...scripture that is consider much more 'understandable' than Revelation.
This presupposes that I haven't asked for clarity...or been given it.
Look...it's actually quite simple...to me, anyway. Other scriptures, mostly NT, but OT as well, state many certainties that we can be sure of, and it is these things that, to me, make a literal 1000 year period on earth questionable.
For example: As I mentioned before...how...how? is any person supposed to get through Christ's return to earth without being judged? And when people are judged, at his return (simultaneous event, by the way) they are given new bodies to either enjoy or endure the rewards or punishments.
Disagree if you must, but why must we start calling our brothers and sisters "knowledgeable" or "lacking in understanding". What I lack, is an agreement with you. That doesn't mean I'm stupid, however.
I never understood what the purpose of the "millennium" is.
why must we start calling our brothers and sisters ...("knowledgeable" or) "lacking in understanding"
What makes you think that the doctrine of the Millennium is based upon Revelation 20 exclusively? Have you searched the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation to find the underlying truth of this expressed throughout the Bible?
The first thing to note about the Millennium is that the Holy Spirit -- the Author of Revelation -- repeats "a thousand years" and "the thousand years" SIX TIMES within seven verses. When something is repeated even twice, it is for emphasis. So what God is saying is that you (or anyone else) cannot lightly walk away from the truth of the Millennium. Hence the repetition.
You've quoted many verses without putting them in proper sequence or perspective. Once you put them in their proper sequence, the Millennium will fit right in. Indeed it occurs chronologically between the second coming of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment. Which is then followed by the New Heavens and the New Earth.
"The end of the age (this present evil age)" is signified by the second coming of Christ. "The age to come" includes the Millennium, the New Heavens and the New Earth, and the eternal state.
So for anyone to claim that the Millennium is presently in progress when we know that this is "the present evil age" means self-delusion and fantasy.
I'm not sure I get your point here. You seem to suggest that one is "the wrong choice". But despite that, how is either wrong? Obviously we 'believe Jesus'. We read his words in scripture, we see them to be true, the words of God.Did scripture teach you to "build a doctrine"....or Believe Jesus' doctrine?
Because he's God...and that means he can do whatever he wants, with whatever he created...which is everything?Why would you believe that the Lord established, TIME ... hours, days, months, years.... and then claim well, not literally?
I'm a little unsure what you're saying here. Are you saying that there is zero need to let scripture interpret scripture, as God will "tell" you what everything means, independent of his own word?Why do you look in Scripture for "the understanding of Scripture?.....When Scripture reveals Knowledge and the Understanding of the Knowledge is given an individual By the Lord God Himself?
You just admitted;
You pick and choose what to believe and what you are not sure of you question, AND you have not sought HE who Has the Understanding.
You are running completely DIFFERENT events all together, and expecting ONE result.
There IS an "ORDER" To WHAT God does.
Then to consider the millions of "INDIVIDUALS", of what and when "THEY" individually ARE or ARE NOT, choosing to "DO" according TO Gods ORDER, determines WHAT WILL or WILL NOt "APPLY" to that Individual.
(In short, that is called dividing the word of truth).
I happily acknowledge that I see the events as falling together. I did not try and hide this.By your own writing in this post, you reveal you run events all together.
You are the one who said in POST # 150
I AGREED with you, about your lack of "UNDERSTANDING"....and then you post...
That IS weird!
You appear to be offended if someone calls you "knowledgeable".....AND offended if someone Agrees with what you have said of yourself.
God Bless,
Taken
I'm not sure I get your point here. You seem to suggest that one is "the wrong choice". But despite that, how is either wrong? Obviously we 'believe Jesus'. We read his words in scripture, we see them to be true, the words of God.
But his words don't float there in isolation, one sentence at a time.
His teachings, and that of his apostles, come together to help us understand what he is saying more fully.
That is, essentially, all doctrine is.
Gathering together his teachings into like subjects to learn more about what he is saying. And how can that be wrong? It isn't. So...yeah...not sure of your point.
Because he's God...and that means he can do whatever he wants, with whatever he created...which is everything?
Look, God uses numbers symbolically. He just does. All throughout scripture he does.
"He just does"
Even Dispensational teachers openly claim that. If you don't believe me, just go and look it up...I know for a fact that Jack Kelley did (he has passed now I believe):
Symbolic Use Of Numbers In The Bible – Grace thru faith
And I know Tom Hughes has mentioned it in his messages as well. Both are Dispensationalist, so it's not just my understanding of the use of numbers.
But despite their acknowledgement that God does, indeed, use numbers in such manner, they for some reason deny any such possibility when they come to Revelation, the most symbol laden, vision heavy book there is in scripture!
Exactly. To keep it even simpler, the eternal home of the Church is the New Jerusalem, whereas that of redeemed Israel is the land of Israel (from the Nile to the Euphrates).I think a helpful thing to remember is that the church is a heavenly people heading for the Rapture in the air, while Israel is an earthly people, which will enter into earthly blessings.