Dispensationalism

[Naomi25]

This should be a clue when the Church began (at least it was for me, bringing me out of Mid Acts Dispensationalism)...

Acts 20:28 ESV
[28] Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

...not Pentecost, not Paul's conversion, not the closing of Acts, but at Calvary.

Hi...sorry to jump in here, but, as far as when the Church began, don't we need to look at the things scripture and Christ tells us is necessary for being a follower of his. The Church is, afterall, his body...perhaps what we would call a gathering of his body of believers.
So...while, sure, he won victory on the cross for all who would come to him, did that moment on Calvary signal the event when all his Disciples 'understood' and were 'born again'?

Consider:

And he preached, saying, “After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” -Mark 1:7–8

And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” -Luke 24:49

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. -John 14:15–17

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. -John 14:26

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. -John 16:7–11

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. -John 16:13

And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” -Acts 1:4-5

But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” -Acts 1:8

When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. -Acts 2:1–4

Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. -Acts 2:37–42


We can see a few things from these passages. That only true Christians will recieve the Holy Spirit. That the Holy Spirit is a necessary part of Christian life; both living, understanding and growing the faith outwards. Christ himself tells his Disciples they must wait for the Spirit to descend upon them before they take up the 'Great Commision'. And, indeed, as soon as the Holy Spirit fills them, Peter begin preaching, 3000 men are saved; they recieve the Spirit, and we see that they "devoted themselves to teaching, fellowship and the breaking of bread and prayers."

Now...personally, I think this speaks very, very strongly for the case that 'the Church', as we call it, started at Pentecost. Because as we can see in scripture, and as we know, without the Spirit, there IS no union with Christ and no forgiveness for our sins. To avail ourselves of the victory he won on Calvary, we need, as Jesus said, the Helper.

 

[prism]

So...while, sure, he won victory on the cross for all who would come to him, did that moment on Calvary signal the event when all his Disciples 'understood' and were 'born again'?

Could you address the phrase, 'which He purchased (obtained) with His own blood'?
How can He 'purchase' or 'obtain' something that does not exist? When He purchased it at Calvary, can't we say at least it then began (if not earlier)?

περιποιέω. 1aor. mid. περιεποιησάμην; only middle in the NT; (1) preserve (for oneself), save (LU 17.33); (2) gain or acquire (for oneself), obtain (1T 3.13); pay the price for, acquire with much effort (AC 20.28)(ANLEX)

 

[farouk]

Yes as all things are eternal in God's mind. But I truly am speaking in time and space, just as others who argue the Church began in Acts 2,Acts 9 or Acts 28. I am speaking in those terms. Maybe 'conceived' wasn't the best word, how about 'first gestated'?



It did give birth to the preaching of the Gospel (Death-v.23, Burial-v.27 and Resurrection-v.24, faith in Christ for the remission of sins-v.38 as well as the imparting of the Holy Spirit-v.39 and thus the new birth (Jer 31:33), followed by their core acts of a Church (Acts 2:42), no?



Yes, I don't doubt that Paul was a chosen instrument to the Gentiles to explain and preach the mysteries not known in other generations just
as Peter was to the Jews (even though Paul did his share of ministering to the Jews).


Thank you for addressing them and mine were 'just thoughts' as well, in return.

The church began at Pentecost; the Old Testament does not speak of the revealed mystery of the church seen in the New Testament.

 

[prism]

The church began at Pentecost; the Old Testament does not speak of the revealed mystery of the church seen in the New Testament.

Could you please explain this verse? How can you purchase something that doesn't yet exist, and if it did exist then Pentecost was too late to say it 'began'. I can only conclude that it began at least at Calvary, if not earlier.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Act 20:28)

 

[farouk]

Could you please explain this verse? How can you purchase something that doesn't yet exist, and if it did exist then Pentecost was too late to say it 'began'. I can only conclude that it began at least at Calvary, if not earlier.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Act 20:28)

I don't understand the question, or where you may be coming from. I do by God's grace understand that the church is distinct from Israel.

 

[prism]

I don't understand the question, or where you may be coming from. I do by God's grace understand that the church is distinct from Israel.

Read Acts 20:28 and ask your self, 'If the Church began at Pentecost, how is it that Jesus purchased/obtained it with His blood at Calvary?'

 

[farouk]

Read Acts 20:28 and ask your self, 'If the Church began at Pentecost, how is it that Jesus purchased/obtained it with His blood at Calvary?'

I don't limit Alpha and Omega. I really don't understand the purpose of the question. I would rather not get into this further.

 

[prism]

I don't limit Alpha and Omega. I really don't understand the purpose of the question. I would rather not get into this further.

The purpose of the question centers around 'when did the Church begin?", which has been the issue the last couple of pages. There are different schools of dispensationalists, some say Pentecost, some Acts 9, others Acts 28 etc. I am simply proposing that it began at Calvary, due to Acts 20:28.

No one is limiting Alpha and Omega,except what He has revealed about Himself in His Word...without which, we would be living under the 'limts'/'constraints' of a cult leader or a Pope in the dark ages.

 

[Dave L]

The purpose of the question centers around 'when did the Church begin?", which has been the issue the last couple of pages. There are different schools of dispensationalists, some say Pentecost, some Acts 9, others Acts 28 etc. I am simply proposing that it began at Calvary due to Acts 20:28.

No one is limiting Alpha and Omega,except what He has revealed about Himself in His Word...without which, we would be living under the 'limts'/'constraints' of a cult leader or a Pope in the dark ages.

The church is the "congregation of the Lord" in the OT.

 

[prism]

The church is the "congregation of the Lord" in the OT.

Actually, the Church (ekklesia) are the 'called out' ones of the Lord. The word 'con-gregation' implies 'gathering together' sort of like the word 'syn-agogue' where members are 'brought together'. In either case, ek (out of) is different from 'con' (with) or 'syn'(drawn together).

 

[Naomi25]

Could you address the phrase, 'which He purchased (obtained) with His own blood'?
How can He 'purchase' or 'obtain' something that does not exist? When He purchased it at Calvary, can't we say at least it then began (if not earlier)?

περιποιέω. 1aor. mid. περιεποιησάμην; only middle in the NT; (1) preserve (for oneself), save (LU 17.33); (2) gain or acquire (for oneself), obtain (1T 3.13); pay the price for, acquire with much effort (AC 20.28)(ANLEX)

What Jesus did on the cross was pay for the sins of the world. However...it IS conditional. On what? On a person coming to faith in him. Right? At that moment on the cross, what he did secured the freedom for all who would believe upon him. Except, while that freedom was secured, it had not been accepted by anyone, with perhaps the exception of the theif on the cross next to him, and the OT Saints who had placed their faith in the promised one to come.
So, until a person accepts Christ, receives the Holy Spirit and becomes born again, that work on the cross is not theirs, is it? It is available TO them, but unless they accept they are sinners in need of grace and accept that grace through faith, they are not welcomed into the family of God.

So, while the cross WAS the most pivitol event in history, and without it we would not be saved, the Church still did not start until people started receiving the Holy Spirit and repenting for their sins, accepting that sacrifice was for them.

Now...when we look at the 'Church' and when it began, and the OT Saints, then things tend to get a little blurry. Because we see in the NT that the OT believers did, in fact, come to be saved by faith, not by law. So do we suppose then, as you suggest, that the Church actually began in the OT? I think it depends. The bible is clear that there is only one way for people to be saved; faith in Christ. In the OT we see that played out in trust and faith in the promised Messiah, even if they didn't know who he was, exactly. And we see that God spoke to them through Prophets.
In the NT we see that faith is directly in Christ, and God speaks through his Holy Spirit whom he send to dwell in us directly.
Then, they seemed to be called Israel (true, spiritual Israel), now we seemed to be called the Church. Either way, we are God's elect. He just deals with us differently depending on whether we live before or after Christ. And, considering the verses I posted before, it does seem clear that in this time, after Christ, in the Church age, we live with the understanding that to be a member of the body, we must be 'born again' of the Spirit. We are not 'justified'...we do not benefit in Christ's work on the cross, until we are born again of the Spirit.

 

[farouk]

What Jesus did on the cross was pay for the sins of the world. However...it IS conditional. On what? On a person coming to faith in him. Right? At that moment on the cross, what he did secured the freedom for all who would believe upon him. Except, while that freedom was secured, it had not been accepted by anyone, with perhaps the exception of the theif on the cross next to him, and the OT Saints who had placed their faith in the promised one to come.
So, until a person accepts Christ, receives the Holy Spirit and becomes born again, that work on the cross is not theirs, is it? It is available TO them, but unless they accept they are sinners in need of grace and accept that grace through faith, they are not welcomed into the family of God.

So, while the cross WAS the most pivitol event in history, and without it we would not be saved, the Church still did not start until people started receiving the Holy Spirit and repenting for their sins, accepting that sacrifice was for them.

Now...when we look at the 'Church' and when it began, and the OT Saints, then things tend to get a little blurry. Because we see in the NT that the OT believers did, in fact, come to be saved by faith, not by law. So do we suppose then, as you suggest, that the Church actually began in the OT? I think it depends. The bible is clear that there is only one way for people to be saved; faith in Christ. In the OT we see that played out in trust and faith in the promised Messiah, even if they didn't know who he was, exactly. And we see that God spoke to them through Prophets.
In the NT we see that faith is directly in Christ, and God speaks through his Holy Spirit whom he send to dwell in us directly.
Then, they seemed to be called Israel (true, spiritual Israel), now we seemed to be called the Church. Either way, we are God's elect. He just deals with us differently depending on whether we live before or after Christ. And, considering the verses I posted before, it does seem clear that in this time, after Christ, in the Church age, we live with the understanding that to be a member of the body, we must be 'born again' of the Spirit. We are not 'justified'...we do not benefit in Christ's work on the cross, until we are born again of the Spirit.

I would agree with a lot of this, while I do think that Israel and the church are definitely separate in Scripture.

 

[prism]

What Jesus did on the cross was pay for the sins of the world. However...it IS conditional. On what? On a person coming to faith in him. Right? At that moment on the cross, what he did secured the freedom for all who would believe upon him. Except, while that freedom was secured, it had not been accepted by anyone, with perhaps the exception of the theif on the cross next to him, and the OT Saints who had placed their faith in the promised one to come.
So, until a person accepts Christ, receives the Holy Spirit and becomes born again, that work on the cross is not theirs, is it? It is available TO them, but unless they accept they are sinners in need of grace and accept that grace through faith, they are not welcomed into the family of God.

So, while the cross WAS the most pivitol event in history, and without it we would not be saved, the Church still did not start until people started receiving the Holy Spirit and repenting for their sins, accepting that sacrifice was for them.

Now...when we look at the 'Church' and when it began, and the OT Saints, then things tend to get a little blurry. Because we see in the NT that the OT believers did, in fact, come to be saved by faith, not by law. So do we suppose then, as you suggest, that the Church actually began in the OT? I think it depends. The bible is clear that there is only one way for people to be saved; faith in Christ. In the OT we see that played out in trust and faith in the promised Messiah, even if they didn't know who he was, exactly. And we see that God spoke to them through Prophets.
In the NT we see that faith is directly in Christ, and God speaks through his Holy Spirit whom he send to dwell in us directly.
Then, they seemed to be called Israel (true, spiritual Israel), now we seemed to be called the Church. Either way, we are God's elect. He just deals with us differently depending on whether we live before or after Christ. And, considering the verses I posted before, it does seem clear that in this time, after Christ, in the Church age, we live with the understanding that to be a member of the body, we must be 'born again' of the Spirit. We are not 'justified'...we do not benefit in Christ's work on the cross, until we are born again of the Spirit.

I agree with the born again aspect and tend not to hold that the OT saints were born again. Anyhow, Jesus said in Mat 16:18, "I WILL BUILD my Church indicating a future time (unless build has the connotation of assemble, thereby include OT believers). But assuming it was a future entity, I see no other explanation to Acts 20:28 where He purchased His Church with His blood as indicating His death at Calvary giving birth to that entity called the Church. IOW, That's when we, the Church, were redeemed, by His blood at Calvary. Eve was taken out of Adam's side and the Church from Christ's side...

John 19:34 KJV
[34] But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

 

[Dave L]

Actually, the Church (ekklesia) are the 'called out' ones of the Lord. The word 'con-gregation' implies 'gathering together' sort of like the word 'syn-agogue' where members are 'brought together'. In either case, ek (out of) is different from 'con' (with) or 'syn'(drawn together).

It's all the same church.

 

[prism]

It's all the same church.

Can you show me where the OT saints were born again? Or was this prophecy set for a better covenant in the future??

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:33)

or

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26-27)

 

[Dave L]

Can you show me where the OT saints were born again? Or was this prophecy set for a better covenant in the future??

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:33)

or

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26-27)

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit all the faithful in Hebrews 11 had.

 

[prism]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit all the faithful in Hebrews 11 had.

So, God's promise of setting in their hearts a new spirit and His law, was really not anything new. Maybe you should reread carefully...

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:33)

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Eze 36:26-27)

This is also explained in the Book of Hebrews...

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Heb 8:10)

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (Heb 10:16)

 

[Dave L]

So, God's promise of setting in their hearts a new spirit and His law, was really not anything new. Maybe you should reread carefully...



This is also explained in the Book of Hebrews...

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Heb 8:10)

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (Heb 10:16)

“The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.” (Leviticus 25:23)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)

------------

“This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted

 

[prism]

“The land shall not be sold for ever: for the land is mine; for ye are strangers and sojourners with me.” (Leviticus 25:23)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

“For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)

------------

“This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted

A non answer. You can't address the passages I gave you but instead resorted to some pre-packaged response.
That's fine, your choice. When you are ready to address the passages, just let me know.

 

[Dave L]

A non answer. You can't address the passages I gave you but instead resorted to some pre-packaged response.
That's fine, your choice. When you are ready to address the passages, just let me know.

Paul says it best if you trust him.