Dispensationalism

[Naomi25]

As an amillennialist you do not want it to make sense.

No...that had nothing to do with my eschatological understandings, and everything to do with the fact that what you wrote barely made a sensible sentence.
It also had to do with the fact that your own 'proof site' supported my point, not yours.
And, it had to do with you dodging around the clear wording of the verse in question. That, my friend, has nothing to do with Amillennialism, but just the literal reading of a text. When a text says "promised TO Christ" and you say "it doesn't say promised TO Christ"...then you have bigger issues at hand than my Amillennialism.

 

[CoreIssue]

No...that had nothing to do with my eschatological understandings, and everything to do with the fact that what you wrote barely made a sensible sentence.
It also had to do with the fact that your own 'proof site' supported my point, not yours.
And, it had to do with you dodging around the clear wording of the verse in question. That, my friend, has nothing to do with Amillennialism, but just the literal reading of a text. When a text says "promised TO Christ" and you say "it doesn't say promised TO Christ"...then you have bigger issues at hand than my Amillennialism.

 

[complete]

Our coming to Him is not a 2nd Coming of Christ. Ours (rapture) is heavenward, His 2nd Coming is earthbound.

Hello @prism,

I have just found a study on the subject of the rapture, which you may be interested in:-
http://www.acts28.net/therapture/

I confess that I have not read it through: but will do so hopefully this evening. I do not normally give links to something which I have not previously read for myself; and become assured of, by measuring it against the plumb line of God's Word; but perhaps, if you do take the time to read it, you and I could consider what it has to say together. If you don't wish to, then that's fine, no problem. :)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[farouk]

Hello @prism,

I have just found a study on the subject of the rapture, which you may be interested in:-
http://www.acts28.net/therapture/

I confess that I have not read it through: but will do so hopefully this evening. I do not normally give links to something which I have not previously read for myself; and become assured of, by measuring it against the plumb line of God's Word; but perhaps, if you do take the time to read it, you and I could consider what it has to say together. If you don't wish to, then that's fine, no problem. :)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I do like and appreciate the way in 1 Corinthians 11.26 the Lord's Supper is connected with the rapture of the church.

 

[complete]

I do like and appreciate the way in 1 Corinthians 11.26 the Lord's Supper is connected with the rapture of the church.

'For as often as ye eat this bread,
and drink this cup,
ye do shew the Lord's death till He come.'
(1 Corinthians 11:26)

Hello @farouk,

In what way does this connect with the 'rapture'?
Are you thinking particularly of the words, 'till He come'?

* I believe we need to consider to whom Paul was speaking, here? This was the Acts church, who were believing Jews, and those believing gentiles who had been grafted into the Olive tree of Israel. This was written before Israel was laid aside, temporarily, in unbelief, and before the revelation of God to Paul concerning the church of this present dispensation.

* The words, 'till He come', spoken to these believers, was their imminent expectation; but which depended on the repentance of Israel for it's fulfilment. This did not occur, and therefore the prospect of Christ's return had to await a future day. The Thessalonian hope was the hope of believing Israel, and the believers grafted in among them, in that day. It is not the hope of the Church which is the Body of Christ, of which He is the head, in this dispensation. The hope held by this company is the appearing of Christ in heavenly places, where they will appear with Him.(Ephesians 1:15-2:9: Colossians 3:3,4)

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[farouk]

'For as often as ye eat this bread,
and drink this cup,
ye do shew the Lord's death till He come.'
(1 Corinthians 11:26)

Hello @farouk,

In what way does this connect with the 'rapture'?
Are you thinking particularly of the words, 'till He come'?

* I believe we need to consider to whom Paul was speaking, here? This was the Acts church, who were believing Jews, and those believing gentiles who had been grafted into the Olive tree of Israel. This was written before Israel was laid aside, temporarily, in unbelief, and before the revelation of God to Paul concerning the church of this present dispensation.

* The words, 'till He come', spoken to these believers, was their imminent expectation; but which depended on the repentance of Israel for it's fulfilment. This did not occur, and therefore the prospect of Christ's return had to await a future day. The Thessalonian hope was the hope of believing Israel, and the believers grafted in among them, in that day. It is not the hope of the Church which is the Body of Christ, of which He is the head, in this dispensation. The hope held by this company is the appearing of Christ in heavenly places, where they will appear with Him.(Ephesians 1:15-2:9: Colossians 3:3,4)

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I would indeed see it to be connected with the church, actually.

 

[prism]

Hello @prism,

I have just found a study on the subject of the rapture, which you may be interested in:-
http://www.acts28.net/therapture/

I confess that I have not read it through: but will do so hopefully this evening. I do not normally give links to something which I have not previously read for myself; and become assured of, by measuring it against the plumb line of God's Word; but perhaps, if you do take the time to read it, you and I could consider what it has to say together. If you don't wish to, then that's fine, no problem. :)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks Chris, I'll take a look at it later. But just looking at the title without looking at the article, my guess is that it is Bullingerism, where the Church didn't start until Acts 28, instead of Acts 2, and thus there is no need for baptism or the Lord's Supper. Bullinger was gifted with the languages but not sound exegesis. :)
...but I may be wrong.

 

[farouk]

@charity : I guess you would not see yourself as dispensational in your thinking.

 

[complete]

Thanks Chris, I'll take a look at it later. But just looking at the title without looking at the article, my guess is that it is Bullingerism, where the Church didn't start until Acts 28, instead of Acts 2, and thus there is no need for baptism or the Lord's Supper. Bullinger was gifted with the languages but not sound exegesis. :)
...but I may be wrong.

Hello @prism,

Thank you for your frank response. I do not agree with you regarding Bullinger obviously, for I am one who believes that the new dispensation began at the end of the Acts period too. :)

With Kind Regards
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

@charity : I guess you would not see yourself as dispensational in your thinking.

Thank you, @farouk,

I am dispensational in my thinking, yes. For I believe that in the Church which is the Body of Christ, all is of the Spirit, and the flesh counts for nothing.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Chris

 

[farouk]

Thank you, @farouk,

I am dispensational in my thinking, yes. For I believe that in the Church which is the Body of Christ, all is of the Spirit, and the flesh counts for nothing.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Chris

Well, fine. I guess that in my mind the Lord's Supper is very much linked with the nature of the church and of the rapture. But we each use definitions according to our Biblical convictions.

Just out of interest, did you formally study theology? because your knowledge seems quite profound. (I hasten to add: I did not, although I have I suppose read extensively.)

 

[farouk]

Hello @prism,

Thank you for your frank response. I do not agree with you regarding Bullinger obviously, for I am one who believes that the new dispensation began at the end of the Acts period too. :)

With Kind Regards
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I have heard the word 'transitional' for Acts; which might imply a slightly more nuanced timescale to the moving from one dispensation to another, albeit with Pentecost being pivotal.

 

[prism]

Hello @prism,

Thank you for your frank response. I do not agree with you regarding Bullinger obviously, for I am one who believes that the new dispensation began at the end of the Acts period too. :)

With Kind Regards
In Christ Jesus
Chris

This should be a clue when the Church began (at least it was for me, bringing me out of Mid Acts Dispensationalism)...

Acts 20:28 ESV
[28] Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

...not Pentecost, not Paul's conversion, not the closing of Acts, but at Calvary.

 

[complete]

Well, fine. I guess that in my mind the Lord's Supper is very much linked with the nature of the church and of the rapture. But we each use definitions according to our Biblical convictions.

Just out of interest, did you formally study theology? because your knowledge seems quite profound. (I hasten to add: I did not, although I have I suppose read extensively.)

Hello @farouk,

No, but like yourself, I have studied.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

This should be a clue when the Church began (at least it was for me, bringing me out of Mid Acts Dispensationalism)...

Acts 20:28 ESV
[28] Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

...not Pentecost, not Paul's conversion, not the closing of Acts, but at Calvary.

Thank you for your post, @prism.

A new dispensation is marked by Divine revelation, or by an obvious change in administration. With the blindness which descended upon an unbelieving nation, Paul was Divinely instructed concerning the change of administration that had to take place as a consequence. Though known by God, and provisioned for before the foundation of the world. The result was The Church which is the Body of Christ, of which He, the risen Lord, is their glorious Head.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

* See:- Romans 5:12-8:39; Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

 

[prism]

A new dispensation is marked by Divine revelation, or by an obvious change in administration. With the blindness which descended upon an unbelieving nation, Paul was Divinely instructed concerning the change of administration that had to take place as a consequence. Though known by God, and provisioned for before the foundation of the world. The result was The Church which is the Body of Christ, of which He, the risen Lord, is their glorious Head.

Hi Charity, I believe what Paul spoke in Acts 20:28 was a Divine Revelation given to Paul 'revealing' when the Church was purchased and 'obtained' aka redeemed. You don't obtain or purchase something that doesn't exist. One could say, the Church was conceived at Calvary, birthed at Pentecost and revealed and declared by Paul, through the revelation given to Paul by God. (Whew)

 

[complete]

Hi Charity, I believe what Paul spoke in Acts 20:28 was a Divine Revelation given to Paul 'revealing' when the Church was purchased and 'obtained' aka redeemed. You don't obtain or purchase something that doesn't exist. One could say, the Church was conceived at Calvary, birthed at Pentecost and revealed and declared by Paul, through the revelation given to Paul by God. (Whew)

'Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,
to feed the church of God,
which He hath purchased with His own blood.'
(Acts 20:28)

Praise God!

Hello @prism,

These words (above) that you refer to in your entry, were spoken by Paul to the Ephesian elders who had met with him, on his way to the 'bonds and afflictions' that the Holy Spirit indicated were awaiting him. This church, along with all in Asia, Paul later, in his last epistle to Timothy, said had 'turned away' from him (2 Timothy 1:15). The reason for this 'turning away' can be seen by comparing the description of the content of his ministry to them to date at Acts 20, with the ministry which followed the revelation he received as 'The Prisoner of the Lord', in his epistles to the Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians.

The content of that (later) revelation had been 'hid in God' (Ephesians 3:9) until that moment: it was not the subject of old testament prophecy, the gospels or the epistles written by him prior to that moment. So it was therefore 'unsearchable', not verifiable by searching the Scriptures, as the Bereans were commended for doing in Acts 17. The hope and calling revealed therefore, by Paul, following that Divine visitation, with it's unique blessings and future inheritance in heavenly places was entirely new.

I commit this to your own study, and thank you for your responses so far, prism.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[prism]

'Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,
to feed the church of God,
which He hath purchased with His own blood.'
(Acts 20:28)

Praise God!

Hello @prism,

These words (above) that you refer to in your entry, were spoken by Paul to the Ephesian elders who had met with him, on his way to the 'bonds and afflictions' that the Holy Spirit indicated were awaiting him. This church, along with all in Asia, Paul later, in his last epistle to Timothy, said had 'turned away' from him (2 Timothy 1:15). The reason for this 'turning away' can be seen by comparing the description of the content of his ministry to them to date at Acts 20, with the ministry which followed the revelation he received as 'The Prisoner of the Lord', in his epistles to the Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians.

The content of that (later) revelation had been 'hid in God' (Ephesians 3:9) until that moment: it was not the subject of old testament prophecy, the gospels or the epistles written by him prior to that moment. So it was therefore 'unsearchable', not verifiable by searching the Scriptures, as the Bereans were commended for doing in Acts 17. The hope and calling revealed therefore, by Paul, following that Divine visitation, with it's unique blessings and future inheritance in heavenly places was entirely new.

I commit this to your own study, and thank you for your responses so far, prism.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Charity,
I understand and agree with the concept of 'mystery' and the ones Paul had revealed in his ministry.
I had put forward Acts 20:28 with an explanation of why I saw the Church beginning at Calvary and wondering if you had a better explanation. That was all.

 

[complete]

Hi Charity,
I understand and agree with the concept of 'mystery' and the ones Paul had revealed in his ministry.
I had put forward Acts 20:28 with an explanation of why I saw the Church beginning at Calvary and wondering if you had a better explanation. That was all.

Hello @prism,

Thank you. I am sorry that I did not address the thoughts you expressed in your earlier post, namely (quote) 'One could say,(1) the Church was conceived at Calvary, (2) birthed at Pentecost and (3) revealed and declared by Paul, through the revelation given to Paul by God.' I can understand why you said (whew!) for it is a wonderful thought; but I don't think it is necessarily true. :)

(1) For the church which is the Body of Christ was 'conceived' before the foundation of the world, wasn't it? (Ephesians 1:4) - in Christ Jesus. Just as the shedding of His blood for redemption was foreordained from before the foundation of the world (1 Peter 1:18-20. All that has come to pass historically, was conceived and fulfilled within the mind of God before it took place: and in the light of His foreknowledge was a finished work: just as our identification with Christ in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection and subsequent ascension to God's right hand is reckoned by God as complete, yet it still awaits the power of the resurrection to bring it to fulfilment, doesn't it?

(2) I believe that Pentecost did not give birth to anything: but was the potential fulfilment of God's prophecies, such as that through Joel (Acts 2:16) which did not have the founding of a church in mind, but the potential of the coming of,'the day of the Lord' in judgement: and of the promise of God concerning the coming of power from on high, though this does not do justice to the whole of the outworking of God's purpose at that time by any means.

(3) Also, the risen Lord appeared to Paul on more than one occasion as the Lord's words to him in Acts 26:16, show, 'But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;' - so Paul had, and would again receive revelation from above, by the appearing to Him of His risen Lord.

* These are just my thoughts, prism:

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[prism]

* For the church which is the Body of Christ was 'conceived' before the foundation of the world, wasn't it? (Ephesians 1:4) - in Christ Jesus.

Yes as all things are eternal in God's mind. But I truly am speaking in time and space, just as others who argue the Church began in Acts 2,Acts 9 or Acts 28. I am speaking in those terms. Maybe 'conceived' wasn't the best word, how about 'first gestated'?

* I believe that Pentecost did not give birth to anything: but was the potential fulfilment of God's prophecies, such as that through Joel (Acts 2:16) which did not have the founding of a church in mind, but the potential of the coming of,'the day of the Lord' in judgement: and of the promise of God concerning the coming of power from on high, though this does not do justice to the whole of the outworking of God's purpose at that time by any means

It did give birth to the preaching of the Gospel (Death-v.23, Burial-v.27 and Resurrection-v.24, faith in Christ for the remission of sins-v.38 as well as the imparting of the Holy Spirit-v.39 and thus the new birth (Jer 31:33), followed by their core acts of a Church (Acts 2:42), no?

* Also, the risen Lord appeared to Paul on more than one occasion as the Lord's words to him in Acts 26:16, show, 'But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;' - so Paul had, and would again receive revelation from above, by the appearing to Him of His risen Lord.

Yes, I don't doubt that Paul was a chosen instrument to the Gentiles to explain and preach the mysteries not known in other generations just
as Peter was to the Jews (even though Paul did his share of ministering to the Jews).

* These are just thoughts, prism, but you did say that you had hoped that I would have addressed this. ;)

Thank you for addressing them and mine were 'just thoughts' as well, in return.