Dispensationalism

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Naomi25

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There is no such thing as "replacement Theology". It's a straw man attack that speaks of the cluelessness of the attacker.

THIS!!!

Oh! I am SO SICK of reading Dispensational authors, or hearing their speakers say "these people believe in replacement theology, which means this...." and then go on to teach something that is so bizarre and wrong, I don't know where they pulled it!

Apparently "Replacement Theology" means, among other things; that we believe:
  • that the Church 'replaced' Israel. - Wrong, by the way.
  • that national Israel has zero right to the land she currently occupies. - Also wrong.
  • That regarding apocolyptic prophecy in a figurative light leads directly to anti-sematism. - Just bizarrely wrong.
  • that we fed the growing foundation of Nazism that led directly to the deaths of all Jews in WW2. - What??
  • thus we do not teach "the importance of Israel in God's redemptive plan for the world". - Funny....I thought God's plan was Jesus. Israel's role was to bring forth Christ. Mission accomplished.
  • We purposely sway Political leaders to support Muslims and terrorists organisations who want to wipe Israel from the land. - Again, so wrong.

Perhaps I could go on. @CoreIssue ....."replacement theology" is a bogus term that Dispensationalists refuse to 'get right'. They like leaving it as it is, because leaving it as is paints us as monsters. That fits nicely with your 'shame on you liberal spiritualizers' agenda.
How about you actually listen to what we truly believe about Israel and what the bible says about the whole situation, and then address it from there? Or, do you enjoy fighting against smoke and mirrors that you yourself have erected?
 
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Naomi25

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You have not been paying attention. Both the Catholic Church and the Protestant churches believe in Replacement Theology -- that the Church has replaced Israel in God's plans and purposes. However, that is simply not true.
How nice of you to tell us of what we believe in! Goodness...we hadn't noticed up until now!
Too bad the label you give it and the description you tack to it don't actually line up with what we believe.
But...by all means...do go on trying to claim you understand it better than we do, or that you don't have any sort of bias for misrepresenting what we understand. At all.
 

Naomi25

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Promises Abraham were unconditional.

The one promise was to Abraham about Jesus, not to Jesus.

You are talking replacement theology.


Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

The promises were made TO Abraham AND TO his offspring. Offspring (single) referring TO ONE....Christ.
Does it, or does it not, say that? The promise was made to Abrahams offspring, Jesus.
Call it what you want, but that's what Paul just said.
 

farouk

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JohnNelsonDarby.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/JohnNelsonDarby.jpg

I like J N Darby
 

prism

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When you pull them out of thin air, it gets confusing.

The air may be thin, but at least it's real and not imaginary...

1 Thessalonians 4:17 ESV
[17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
 
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Dave L

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The air may be thin, but at least it's real and not imaginary...

1 Thessalonians 4:17 ESV
[17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
This is typical for dispies, selling one idea on the merits of the other.
 

CoreIssue

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Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

The promises were made TO Abraham AND TO his offspring. Offspring (single) referring TO ONE....Christ.
Does it, or does it not, say that? The promise was made to Abrahams offspring, Jesus.
Call it what you want, but that's what Paul just said.

You need to do some study:
Covenants

The promises were to Abraham and fulfilled Jesus Christ. Not to Jesus Christ.

There were later covenants with his descendents concerning the Abrahamic covenant. But that does not make them part of his covenant.
Who are the seed of Abraham?
Galatians 3:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Again you are not reading in context, but shopping carting verses.
 
D

Dave L

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I 'bolded' my response in #148 to help clarify it for you.
You shift the rapture from the last day after the resurrection to sometime before the resurrection before the last day..........
 

prism

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You shift the rapture from the last day after the resurrection to sometime before the resurrection before the last day..........
Au Contraire, you have shifted the rapture from sometime before the resurrection before the last day to the last day. (See how silly this can get?)
 

prism

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I have scripture....you do not.
I gave you Scripture in #148 and you said 'this is typical for dispies' in #149. Then in #155 you say I don't have Scripture. Please make up your mind.
 
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Dave L

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I gave you Scripture in #148 and you said 'this is typical for dispies' in #149. Please make up your mind.
You are twisting Paul's words to fit your scheme. The rapture happens AFTER the Resurrection. And scripture says this happens on the last day.
 

prism

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The rapture happens AFTER the Resurrection.
That makes no sense. Are you saying our bodies first get raptured, then our spirit? Or are you saying our spirits are already seated in heavenly places with our bodies to follow or the rapture happens after Christ's resurrection?

Maybe a few Scriptures on your part will be helpful.
 

Naomi25

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You need to do some study:
Covenants

The promises were to Abraham and fulfilled Jesus Christ. Not to Jesus Christ.

There were later covenants with his descendents concerning the Abrahamic covenant. But that does not make them part of his covenant.
Who are the seed of Abraham?
Galatians 3:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Again you are not reading in context, but shopping carting verses.

I'm sorry, but...what? Absoultely NONE of that makes a lick of sense. At all. Any way you look at it. From a covenantal point of view, or just from a rational point of view.
How can something be fulfilled by Christ, but not ultimately be about Christ? The verse says "TO"...Christ.
How can a covenant with Abrahams decendents be based on Abrahams covenant. A covenant by itself is dead. A covenant has to be between two parties, not another covenant. A covenant with Abrahams 'decendants' has to be with the Covenant maker...or, it has to be part of the Abrahamic covenant. Otherwise it's a promise resting on a promise. And promises, without the people making them, are dead. They're just empty words.
Also...your link to "who are the seed of Abraham"?....it sort of supports my view, just fyi. That Gal 3:16 says that the promise is made to Christ, and that those who are "in" Christ are also heirs to the promise. Good link though...

Besides, you are clearly missing, or dodging, the clear wording of this verse:

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

It outright says that the "promises were made to Christ". See how that flows? The promises were made to Abraham AND TO his offspring. Those 'offspring' actually being one...Christ. Thus, the promises were made to Abraham AND TO CHRIST. Not fulfilled BY Christ, but made TO him.

Then, you quote this verse (kudos for actually using a bible verse, by the way):

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:28–29

However, I don't see how it helps your argument at all. Paul is saying that IN CHRIST there is no Jew or Gentile. There is only one people and we are Abrahams offspring, heirs to the promise. In regards to the link you posted, we are, IN CHRIST...'spiritual Israel'.

And when we look at this verse in conjunction to:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. -Romans 11:17–21

Then we can see that not all "physical Israel" remain on the 'tree'. They are no longer 'heirs to the promise'...only those who are "In Christ" are heirs to the promise.
But...this is not "replacement theology", where the Church has kicked Israel out of her place. No...Israel stands in the place she always has...true spiritual Israel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David...those elected by grace and faith in the OT who 'stood firm'...they were true Israel. And once Christ came, any of the nation who rejected him, blood or not, was 'broken off', and those who accepted him, blood or not, were 'grafted in'. This is not 'replacement theology' it is expansion theology, or adoption theology. And a good portion of us believe that Romans goes on to say:

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob” -Romans 11:23–26

I fully believe God still has a plan for 'physical' Israel. But it is not as a separate people. It is as 'spiritual Israel', just as we are...all one in Christ...our Messiah.
 

CoreIssue

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I'm sorry, but...what? Absoultely NONE of that makes a lick of sense. At all. Any way you look at it. From a covenantal point of view, or just from a rational point of view.
How can something be fulfilled by Christ, but not ultimately be about Christ? The verse says "TO"...Christ.
How can a covenant with Abrahams decendents be based on Abrahams covenant. A covenant by itself is dead. A covenant has to be between two parties, not another covenant. A covenant with Abrahams 'decendants' has to be with the Covenant maker...or, it has to be part of the Abrahamic covenant. Otherwise it's a promise resting on a promise. And promises, without the people making them, are dead. They're just empty words.
Also...your link to "who are the seed of Abraham"?....it sort of supports my view, just fyi. That Gal 3:16 says that the promise is made to Christ, and that those who are "in" Christ are also heirs to the promise. Good link though...

Besides, you are clearly missing, or dodging, the clear wording of this verse:

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

It outright says that the "promises were made to Christ". See how that flows? The promises were made to Abraham AND TO his offspring. Those 'offspring' actually being one...Christ. Thus, the promises were made to Abraham AND TO CHRIST. Not fulfilled BY Christ, but made TO him.

Then, you quote this verse (kudos for actually using a bible verse, by the way):

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:28–29

However, I don't see how it helps your argument at all. Paul is saying that IN CHRIST there is no Jew or Gentile. There is only one people and we are Abrahams offspring, heirs to the promise. In regards to the link you posted, we are, IN CHRIST...'spiritual Israel'.

And when we look at this verse in conjunction to:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. -Romans 11:17–21

Then we can see that not all "physical Israel" remain on the 'tree'. They are no longer 'heirs to the promise'...only those who are "In Christ" are heirs to the promise.
But...this is not "replacement theology", where the Church has kicked Israel out of her place. No...Israel stands in the place she always has...true spiritual Israel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David...those elected by grace and faith in the OT who 'stood firm'...they were true Israel. And once Christ came, any of the nation who rejected him, blood or not, was 'broken off', and those who accepted him, blood or not, were 'grafted in'. This is not 'replacement theology' it is expansion theology, or adoption theology. And a good portion of us believe that Romans goes on to say:

And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob” -Romans 11:23–26

I fully believe God still has a plan for 'physical' Israel. But it is not as a separate people. It is as 'spiritual Israel', just as we are...all one in Christ...our Messiah.

As an amillennialist you do not want it to make sense.