Do Catholics Talk to Dead People?

[BreadOfLife]

I certainly do.

No!

Then you believe iin ONE God in THREE distinct Persons with THREE distinct roles.
As I stated before - MY Bible says that Jesus is the Author of Faith - and the Holy Spirit is the Authoir of Scripture.

What does YOUR Bible say?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Go ahead and pray to sinners who have died. I will pray to God.

As I stated earlier - YOU pray to LIVE sinners here on earth.
You prayed to ME several times on this thread.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And you can pray to the moon too. I pray to God.

Sooooooo, you CAN'T refute that those who have left this world in Christ can SEE and HEAR us.

That's what I thought . . .

 

[kcnalp]

No, you are making that up. Mary was spared from original sin by the merits of The Cross retrospectively. That's why Mary rejoiced in God her savior. Luke 1:47.
Did Mary receive Jesus as her personal savior at the Temple at an altar call given by the rabbi? Your anti-Mary animus is ridiculous.

More "Bible Christian" cults are rejecting the doctrine of Original Sin (Romans 5) at an alarming rate. The mid 18th century modernist heresies have infected Protestantism like a cancer, made popular on the last 50 years. It's fad theology.

None of that says Mary was sinless. YOU are making it up.

 

[kcnalp]

Then you believe iin ONE God in THREE distinct Persons with THREE distinct roles.
As I stated before - MY Bible says that Jesus is the Author of Faith - and the Holy Spirit is the Authoir of Scripture.

What does YOUR Bible say?

My Bible says Jesus is God.
John 1 The Word was God.

 

[kcnalp]

As I stated earlier - YOU pray to LIVE sinners here on earth.
You prayed to ME several times on this thread.

I don't pray to you nor any person. I pray to God. You are TWISTING my comments.

 

[kcnalp]

Sooooooo, you CAN'T refute that those who have left this world in Christ can SEE and HEAR us.

That's what I thought . . .

Go ahead and pray to sinners who died. I will continue to pray to God.

 

[Illuminator]

Go ahead and pray to sinners who died. I will continue to pray to God.

So do Catholics. Over 90% of the Mass is directly to God. But prayer ONLY to God is a man made tradition, it's not in the Bible. "Pray to" does not mean "worship" and that is where your problem lies.

I don't pray to saints in heaven according to Calvin's rigid, narrow definition of "pray to". One does not need to be a Calvinist to dogmatize his near sightedness.

How is it possible for Jesus and Peter to raise the dead without simultaneously telling the dead person to rise??? This alone demolishes the illogical man made tradition that prayers to dead people is not found in the Bible, along with other biblical evidences.
This question appears in the "Apparitions of the Virgin Mary" thread,
post # 505 and no one answered it. Now I am asking you.

Don't accept the doctrine of the Communion of Saints? Fine. I don't care. But you have no business attacking it with 200 year old diabolical opinions that insults the uniqueness of the Incarnation.

 

[Illuminator]

Go ahead and pray to sinners who died.

A non-sequitur fallacy. Those in heaven are not sinners.

I will continue to pray to God.

Another one of Calvin's either/or false dichotomies.

 

[BreadOfLife]

My Bible says Jesus is God.
John 1 The Word was God.

So does mine.
Now, show me where it says the Son is the Author of Scripture and not the SUBJECT of it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't pray to you nor any person. I pray to God. You are TWISTING my comments.

Wanna bet??

In post #169 - YOU said:
"Do you pray to God?"

By ASKING me that - you PRAYED to me.

As I have educated you before - "Pray" simply means to "ASK".
"Worship" is a SECONDARY definition:

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yes, I'm well aware of Gehenna - but that wasn't my point.
I merely showed you that the Greek word for "soul" (psyche) regarded the SPIRITUAL realm as well as the physical.

Our conversation began when YOU said: "Those who believe you can talk to the dead don't believe in death."
The WHOLE point of asking those in Heaven to pray for us is that they are fellow members of the Body of Christ - who have been made PERFECT in Christ. NOTHING imperfect can enter Heaven (Rev. 21:27).

So, if you ask flawed, sinful person on earth to pray for you - WHY would you discount the prayers of those who are in the presence of almighty God and have been perfected?

First of all where in the scriptures does it say we are to ask the dead to pray for us? The only person in heaven we pray to is God through his Only Begotten Son Jesus and they are not dead. All others in heaven are alive as well, but the only one we pray to is The Only True God. So where in the scriptures does it say we should ask those in heaven to pray for us?
As for the word Soul in the scriptures is either talking about an animal or human or the life of the animal or human. In revelations always remembering that revelations was told to John by an Angel in signs, the Souls under the alter we're not literal beings under the alter but represented or were symbolic of the sacrificial lifes of those who spread the good news about The True God and his Only Begotten Son Jesus and the kingdom of God, who were martyred. I keep telling people that in the scriptures they will not see the word soul as being immortal. The Soul that is sinning dies the scriptures tell us. Man doesn't have an immortal soul that superates at death. The only persons, other than the Angels, The True God and his Only Begotten Son that are in heaven are those humans who were resurrected from the dead who when resurrected received a resurrection like Jesus and was given immortality and inherited in corruption. These persons when resurrected have been changed from mortal beings to immortal spiritual beings, so there are no literal Souls in heaven because as I said we humans don't have immortal souls.
Those who believe we have immortal souls that separate at death and goes to either heaven or hell don't truly believe in death but instead like the pagans believe death is just a doorway to another plain of existence. This view is saying God is a liar because this view is saying no one really dies but continues to exist in another form either in heaven or hell. Doesn't this sound unreasonable? For instance you said in a previous post that the souls of the Apostles and disciples were in heaven waiting to get glorified bodies which if I haven't misunderstood you they will get during the resurrection. Well the word perfect in scripture means complete. Yet you said nothing imperfect can get in heaven but you're saying these souls who are the Apostles and disciples of Jesus are waiting to get there glorified bodies which means they are not perfect yet. However you're saying they are in heaven even though you said nothing perfect can enter heaven. Now I do agree with the thought that nothing imperfect can enter heaven but going by what you're saying well it's against scripture. For one thing there is no dead persons in heaven and the word resurrection means standing up again to life. Also it's when the dead are raised back or stand up to life again is when they get their glorified bodies, just as Jesus did. The scriptures show that at the second presence of Jesus Christ is when the resurrectsion starts and those who are resurrected get their glorified bodies and Jesus takes them home to himself. But Jesus home is in heaven and you're saying these souls we're in heaven awaiting their glorified bodies during the resurrection. Also when it comes to those unrighteous persons many say are in hell and many saying hell is a fiery torment place why would God resurrect them from such a place if he has already judged them to deserve to be in such a place. Why would God after Judging that such people deserved to be in such a place, resurrect them only to judge them again to be deserving to be in such a place.

 

[Taken]

Wanna bet??

In post #169 - YOU said:
"Do you pray to God?"

By ASKING me that - you PRAYED to me.

As I have educated you before - "Pray" simply means to "ASK".
"Worship" is a SECONDARY definition:

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Review the definitions.
Asking questions does not simply mean to PRAY, as you imply.


1) PRAY-
The Word PRAY is actually Said..
See example

2) PRAY-
No need for another to ever be aware.

3) PRAY-
Asking in a Humble manner.
Example:
Dear sir if you would be so kind to tell me...
blah, blah, blah

4) PRAY
Addressing God.

Observe questions Asked on this forum...

Tell me ...
Where does Scripture say...?
What? LOL you've got to be kidding...
Wanna bet?


Those do not fall under the definition of PRAY.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Review the definitions.
Asking questions does not simply mean to PRAY, as you imply.


1) PRAY-
The Word PRAY is actually Said..
See example

2) PRAY-
No need for another to ever be aware.

3) PRAY-
Asking in a Humble manner.
Example:
Dear sir if you would be so kind to tell me...
blah, blah, blah

4) PRAY
Addressing God.

Observe questions Asked on this forum...

Tell me ...
Where does Scripture say...?
What? LOL you've got to be kidding...
Wanna bet?


Those do not fall under the definition of PRAY.

WRONG.

the word, "Pray" is legal, juridical language that is used in police reports and court documents, where it simply means to ASK - to INQUIRE.

 

[BreadOfLife]

First of all where in the scriptures does it say we are to ask the dead to pray for us? The only person in heaven we pray to is God through his Only Begotten Son Jesus and they are not dead. All others in heaven are alive as well, but the only one we pray to is The Only True God. So where in the scriptures does it say we should ask those in heaven to pray for us?
As for the word Soul in the scriptures is either talking about an animal or human or the life of the animal or human. In revelations always remembering that revelations was told to John by an Angel in signs, the Souls under the alter we're not literal beings under the alter but represented or were symbolic of the sacrificial lifes of those who spread the good news about The True God and his Only Begotten Son Jesus and the kingdom of God, who were martyred. I keep telling people that in the scriptures they will not see the word soul as being immortal. The Soul that is sinning dies the scriptures tell us. Man doesn't have an immortal soul that superates at death. The only persons, other than the Angels, The True God and his Only Begotten Son that are in heaven are those humans who were resurrected from the dead who when resurrected received a resurrection like Jesus and was given immortality and inherited in corruption. These persons when resurrected have been changed from mortal beings to immortal spiritual beings, so there are no literal Souls in heaven because as I said we humans don't have immortal souls.
Those who believe we have immortal souls that separate at death and goes to either heaven or hell don't truly believe in death but instead like the pagans believe death is just a doorway to another plain of existence. This view is saying God is a liar because this view is saying no one really dies but continues to exist in another form either in heaven or hell. Doesn't this sound unreasonable? For instance you said in a previous post that the souls of the Apostles and disciples were in heaven waiting to get glorified bodies which if I haven't misunderstood you they will get during the resurrection. Well the word perfect in scripture means complete. Yet you said nothing imperfect can get in heaven but you're saying these souls who are the Apostles and disciples of Jesus are waiting to get there glorified bodies which means they are not perfect yet. However you're saying they are in heaven even though you said nothing perfect can enter heaven. Now I do agree with the thought that nothing imperfect can enter heaven but going by what you're saying well it's against scripture. For one thing there is no dead persons in heaven and the word resurrection means standing up again to life. Also it's when the dead are raised back or stand up to life again is when they get their glorified bodies, just as Jesus did. The scriptures show that at the second presence of Jesus Christ is when the resurrectsion starts and those who are resurrected get their glorified bodies and Jesus takes them home to himself. But Jesus home is in heaven and you're saying these souls we're in heaven awaiting their glorified bodies during the resurrection. Also when it comes to those unrighteous persons many say are in hell and many saying hell is a fiery torment place why would God resurrect them from such a place if he has already judged them to deserve to be in such a place. Why would God after Judging that such people deserved to be in such a place, resurrect them only to judge them again to be deserving to be in such a place.

First of all -= show me ONE verse of Scripture that says those in Heaven in the everlasting presence of almightly God are "DEAD".

Secondly - we are told that the prayers of a "Righteous" person are very powerful (James 5:16). Those in Heaven have been made righteous and perfect in Christ.

Thirdly, show me ONE verse of Scripture that mentions the "Trinity".
How about the "Incarnation"?

NOT everything we believe as Christians is explicitly spelled out in Scripture.
Much of what we believe is implicitly taught.

 

[Mungo]

Review the definitions.
Asking questions does not simply mean to PRAY, as you imply.


1) PRAY-
The Word PRAY is actually Said..
See example

2) PRAY-
No need for another to ever be aware.

3) PRAY-
Asking in a Humble manner.
Example:
Dear sir if you would be so kind to tell me...
blah, blah, blah

4) PRAY
Addressing God.

Observe questions Asked on this forum...

Tell me ...
Where does Scripture say...?
What? LOL you've got to be kidding...
Wanna bet?


Those do not fall under the definition of PRAY.

Consider the etymology of the word "pray":
c.1290, "ask earnestly, beg," also "pray to a god or saint," from O.Fr. preier (c.900), from L. precari "ask earnestly, beg," from *prex (plural preces, gen. precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE base *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (cf. Skt. prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" O.C.S. prositi, Lith. prasyti "to ask, beg;" O.H.G. frahen, Ger. fragen, O.E. fricgan "to ask" a question). Prayer (c.1300) is from O.Fr. preiere, from V.L. *precaria, noun use of L. precaria, fem. of adj. precarius "obtained by prayer," from precari.(from the Online Etymology Dictionary)

So pray means, at its root, ask earnestly, entreat, beg, request.

If you read old English plays you will find phrases such as “prithee sir” (pray you sir) or “where are you going I pray”.

Take these extracts from that great English writer, Jane Austen
“But pray, Colonel, how came you to conjure out that I should be in town today?” (Mrs Jennings to Colonel Brandon in Sense and Sensibility)
"Oh! cousin, stop a moment, pray stop!" (Fanny Price to Edmund in Mansfield Park)

Scripture itself uses the word pray in this manner:
Notwithstanding, that I be not further tedious unto thee, I pray thee that thou wouldest hear us of thy clemency a few words. (Acts 24:4 - KJV)
Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health (Acts 27:34 - KJV)

The Greek word translated pray here is parakaleo. According to a Greek dictionary this means:- ask, beg, implore, petition, pray, request, solicit, urge, woo

A different Greek word is used here:
I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours, (John 17:9).
The Greek word we translate as pray comes from the Greek erotao which means: ask, query, question.

This is the same word that Jesus uses in his parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31). At one point the rich man (now in hell) says to Abraham "I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house" (vs 27). Pray here is eroto.

And here is another one:
And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? (Acts 8:34 - KJV)
The Greek word here is deomai (G1189) meaning to beg, petition, beseech, make request

So to summarise so far, to use "pray" for "ask" is scriptural and it is in this sense that Catholics pray to Mary. They are asking her for her prayers for us.

Praying to God
Another word that is used in the NT is proseuchomai as when Jesus says: But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret (Mt 6:6).
It is this word proseuchomai that is generally used for addressing God.

Greek speaking Orthodox use proseuchomai for addressing God and parakaleo for addressing Mary & the Saints. We have only the one word, “pray”, and hence the misunderstandings that arise because most protestants, who do not pray to Mary, do not understand this distinction and assume that Catholics pray to Mary in the same way that they pray to God.

Spirit & Truth Fellowship International (not Catholic) say about proseuchomai & parakaleo:
The Greek verb proseuchomai (#4336 proseu,comai) and its noun form proseuche (#4335 proseuch,), like euchomai and euche, denote prayer in the more general sense. This means the content of the prayer may include various specific requests (aitema), supplications (deēsis), intercessions (enteuxis), etc. However proseuchomai and proseuche are only used as prayer to God (the prefix pros means towards)—whereas euchomai and deēsis are not restricted in this way (Trench, Synonyms). It generally “seems to indicate not so much the contents of the prayer as its end and aim” (Thayer).

The Greek verb parakaleō (#3870 parakale,w) and its noun form paraklēsis (#3874 para,klhsij) have a very wide range of meaning. Further, they appear quite often in scripture (109 verb uses; 29 noun uses). The words’ basic meaning is to call to one’s side. “To call some one hither, that he may do something…to use persuasion with him” (Bullinger). The calling along can be meant to appeal or plead; encourage or urge; to comfort; summon or invite; only once is it applied to God and that by the Lord Jesus (Matt 26:53).

Their text on this lists many words Greek words that are translated as “pray” – euchomai, proseuchomai, erotao, aiteo, deomai, parakaleo, entynchano with explanations and examples in the NT.

See https://www.stfonline.org/pdf/rev/appendix_10_commentary.pdf

To summarise:
Catholics use one meaning of “pray” when addressing Mary and a different meaning when addressing God.

 

[Taken]

...so there are no literal Souls in heaven because as I said we humans don't have immortal souls.

Many words in Scripture require a long deep study ... and then to use the study to put a verse in context of The understanding...
According to man...
Or
According to God.

For example; words like;
Life, Death, Dead, Spirit, Soul, Man...etc.

Dead- means:
.. was alive and is no longer alive

Dead- means:
.."was or is" Alive but not with God

Dead- means:
.."was or is" Alive but, "Accounted" Dead,
BY God.

Soul- means:
.. Gods Breath of Life.

Soul- means:
.. Gods Breath of Life, Once given a man, activates (brings to Life), the man's Life.
(Here...man means Form/Body
(Here...man's Life means Blood

Soul- means:
.. the identity ... Name of man, so Also is the Soul the same Name as the man is Named.

Soul- is thus used to identify, call, understand...a Body of a man and Soul of a man--- is exclusive to ONE Individual man.

Soul- is the senses of a man activated IN the Body of a Man...
Meaning-
"A Body", without a Soul...is a Body that can not:
Hear, see, talk, touch/feel sensation, taste...

When Life ... of a Man (blood) STOPS flowing, the heart stops beating, (moving the blood), the organs and cells inside the body stop receiving oxygen and nutrients (from the Blood)...and the Body Dies.

* The "Living soul", IS Living ...By the Power of Gods Breath"...(NOT a man's Blood).

* As a BODY is "Dying"... it slips into a state of "unconsciousness"... the "senses" drift away...
Which IS..."The Living Soul" leaving/ departing the BODY.

* The Dead Body...feels, hears, says, sees, tastes.......Nothing!

* The Departed Living Soul?
Whep...here's a Note...all souls Belong To God. (You can read that in Scripture, "All souls are mine" sainthood the Lord God).

* the Departed Living soul is a Soul with Gods Breath remaining In the Soul, but the Soul is no longer in "its" Body. "It's"? Yes...Body and souls...same Name identity.

* the Dead Body- begind deteriorating / rotting...preparing to return to dust. Can be buried, burned, left in a field ...it will rot.

* and the Living Soul? What happens to That?

* depends...
What did that Body of man Decide and Do, while the Living Soul was IN His Body?
* was his Mind continuously getting his way by deceiving? Which affected his soul corruptly within him.
* was his Mind against God, continuously flapping his lips, speaking Against The Lord God? Again corrupting his soul.
* did that man seek a true forgiveness From God, for having corrupted his soul, by the thoughts and acts of his corrupt Flesh Body?

All depends on what the man (Flesh Body) chooses while the body is Still physically Alive.

God offers, a Way to all men, to be forgiven and have their Soul restored and Saved.
Restored to what?
Restored to GOOD, as God call all the things He created and made, in the Day He CREATED and MADE all things in the beginning.
Saved From What?
A damning Judgement and Sentence.
Eternal Separation From God.
Saved TO What?
The Lord Gods Peace, Joy, Comfort, Protection Via, His Power to Forever "Remain" with His Life in that Soul.

A Saved Living soul, departs a dying Body, and rises to Heaven, is With God in His Kingdom....And WAITS.

An Unsaved Living soul, departs a dying body, is lowered to Hell, is Separated From God, NOT in Gods Kingdom...And WAITS.

What is the WAITING For?
Gods plan to be Accomplished...
IOW- All Earthly men that ever HAVE or WILL be born...to be Accomplished.
Then Will God...begin MASSIVE Judgement and Sentencing...of the WHOLE of Man...
Body, soul, spirit of man.

A sentence of a Saved soul is Forever it shall remain with Gods Breath of Life.

* IMO and understanding: A sentence of an Unsaved soul is a bit more involved...

And that is determined: by what the man did while Alive.
* rejected God and physically died?
* rejected Christ Jesus and physically died?
Then; LIFE in his soul RETURNS to God.
* the Lifeless Body and Lifeless Soul ...
BURNED UP in the Fire Pit in Hell, and Forgotten.
(He knows nothing, physically feels, suffers nothing).

** But for a man alive in his Flesh...WHO...
EXPRESSLY... preached, taught, promoted, encouraged others TO NOT Believe in the Lord God...
"They have" committed an Unpardonable Sin AGAINST the Holy Spirit.

(We know they never received a born Again "spirit"... which is a whole other topic)...

But I lean toward the belief:
That Their Body is cast into the Fire pit and burned up...
But that;
That God LEAVES his Life IN their Soul, and casts them INTO the Fire pit, from which FOREVER they suffer...fully Aware, they can never escape, rest, enjoy....and fully Aware it was Because They promoted AGAINST God.

Mortal by definition means... shall die.
Men's Body's are mortal.
Animals are Mortal.
That which It's Life Is BLOOD, is Mortal.

An immortal thing...Does NOT Depend on Blood to Live.

Gods Life does not depend on Blood.
Spirits (angel's good / or bad) are not Mortal...they can never "physically Die".
A soul is not mortal. It can not Physically Die.
Calling a soul "dead", or it shall "die"...
Is a Spiritual Understanding of Death...
Separated from God....Not a Physical Death.
Souls can be Destroyed.

A man "putting on immortality"... is his Body being "Changed" from mortal Blood LIFE that Does Die...to an immortal body, without Blood", that can never Die.
Souls do not put on Immortality...
They simply "KEEP" Gods Breath of Life IN them...
Or God Removes His Breath of Life, takes that Life back to Himself, and destroys the soul by fire.

Remember a man can Kill his own body an others body...but he can Not Kill a soul.

Hope this is beneficial to you.
Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

WRONG.

the word, "Pray" is legal, juridical language that is used in police reports and court documents, where it simply means to ASK - to INQUIRE.

No it is not wrong.
And you should have reread the meaning without a preconceived understanding.

I am Fully aware PRAY can be used to make a Formal Request to a Court, or government agency that holds a document an individual may wish to see or have a copy thereof,

You are way overboard, outside the parameter, if you think ... hey waaasup? Is an example of PRAYING a Humble question.

That is a question...without intent of humbleness, exalting, revering, respect, adoration ... or the likes thereof.

When you call upon Mary...you call out her Name...you call out to her in humble reverence and adoration. Maybe have bowed your head, or on your knees...You ARE PRAYING to her, that she be a deliverer TO God, of your Request.

Why you do Not have communication Directly with God, is a mystery... I have never heard a Catholic...Explain.

How you Bodily communicate, talking with your body's mouth... To an others Living soul, whose Body is Dead...
Is another mystery...I have never heard a Catholic...Explain.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

First of all -= show me ONE verse of Scripture that says those in Heaven in the everlasting presence of almightly God are "DEAD".

Secondly - we are told that the prayers of a "Righteous" person are very powerful (James 5:16). Those in Heaven have been made righteous and perfect in Christ.

Thirdly, show me ONE verse of Scripture that mentions the "Trinity".
How about the "Incarnation"?

NOT everything we believe as Christians is explicitly spelled out in Scripture.
Much of what we believe is implicitly taught.

Obviously you didn't read my post. I said that all in heaven are alive not dead. At no time did I say anyone in heaven was dead. Also the context of James 5:16 is talking about humans not Angels or spiritual beings. You can take a scripture out of context all you want to try to prove what you believe but it's not going to convince me. Also the Trinity and incarnation are false doctrines that's why there not in the scriptures. The scriptures are explicit when it says 2 Timothy 3:16,17 it's obvious you don't agree with this scripture.

 

[Philip James]

Also the Trinity and incarnation are false doctrines

Wow, just wow..

Lord, have mercy!