Do Christians sin like the unbelievers?

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Johann

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Why feel the need to "correct" me?
There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on, and on, and on...

Why?

J.
If someone addresses me with a teaching, then I have an obligation to respond.

And, I'm not correcting you. I'm correcting what you teach.

If you want to be corrected, that is entirely up to you.

This is a doctrinal dispute forum, not a pastoring site.

I do not believe anyone should offer any personal ministerial counselling about living for Christ, to anyone that does not ask.

My only requirement, is that if someone wants to correct what I teach, they first accurately understand it, and then address specifics, which is what I do.

Too many people just talk around each other, or get personal about it.

Also, I've ceased endless arguments. If we can't agree on one or two Scriptures, then we won't agree on a hundred.

However, I do like being corrected for my own benefit, so if there is any specific point I have made, that you would like to address, I'd be glad to hear it.
[/QUOTE]

I asked you why the over 45,000 different denominations?

I have looked over your scripture quotations, out of context, not considering...

It shall help thee greatly to understand scripture
If thou matk not only what is spoken
Or written
But of whom
And to whom, With what words
At what time
Where
To what intent
With what circumstances
Considering what goeth before
And what followeth after

Miles Coverdale

J.
 

Johann

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The only " Righteousness" that anybody will ever know or posses I ins the Righteousness that is IMPUTED to them if they Trust Jesus alone to save them..
Lev_7:18 And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.

Lev_17:4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:

Rom_4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom_4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Rom_4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

Rom_4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


We need the righteousness of Christ imputed to us because we have no righteousness of our own. We are sinners by nature, and we cannot make ourselves righteous—we cannot place ourselves in right standing with God. We need Christ’s righteousness imputed to us—meaning, we need His holiness before God credited to our account.

In His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus makes our need for imputed righteousness plain. He says, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). This comes after Jesus had just corrected His listeners’ misunderstanding of the law. In Matthew 5:20, Jesus says that, if His hearers want to enter into the kingdom of heaven, their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, who were the experts in the knowledge of the law.

Then, in Matthew 5:21–47, Jesus radically redefines obedience to the law from mere outward conformity, which characterized the “righteousness” of the Pharisees, to an obedience of both outward and inward conformity. Six times in this passage, He says, “You have heard that it was said . . . but I tell you.” In this way, Jesus differentiated the requirements of the law as the people had been taught from its actual requirements. Obeying the law is more than simply abstaining from murder or adultery, for example. It’s also not getting angry with your brother and not lusting in your heart. At the end of this section of the sermon, Jesus says we must “be perfect” (verse 48).

At this point, the natural response is, “But I can’t be perfect,” which is absolutely true. In another place in Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus summarizes the Law of God with two commandments: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37–40). These commands also condemn us, because has anyone ever loved the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength and loved his neighbor as himself? Everything we do, say, and think must be done, said, and thought from love for God and love for neighbor. We have never achieved that level of spirituality. We are not righteous.

Sin affects us to the very core of our being, and no matter how good we try to be, we will never meet God’s standard of perfection on our own. The Bible says that all our righteous deeds are like a “polluted garment” (Isaiah 64:6). Our own attempts at goodness are simply not good enough. We need an imputed righteousness, and for that we look to Christ.

On the cross, Jesus took our sin upon Himself and purchased our salvation. We have “been justified by his blood” (Romans 5:9), and part of that justification is an imputation of His own righteousness. Paul puts it this way: “For our sake [God] made [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus is righteous by virtue of His very nature—He is the Son of God. By God’s grace, “through faith in Jesus Christ,” that righteousness is given “to all who believe” (Romans 3:22). That’s imputation: the giving of Christ’s righteousness to sinners.

Having Christ’s righteousness imputed to us does not mean we automatically do what is right—that will come through the process of sanctification. What it does mean is that we are positionally righteous; even though we still sin, we are forensically or legally righteous. God has credited the righteousness of Christ to our account, and He did this when He saved us. In grace, the holiness of Jesus Christ is ascribed to us. Christ “has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30).

By having the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, we can be seen as sinless, as Jesus is sinless. This is amazing grace! We are not righteous in ourselves; rather, we possess Christ’s righteousness applied to our account. It is not our perfection but Christ’s that God sees when He brings us into fellowship with Himself. We are still sinners in practice, but the grace of God has declared us to have righteous standing before the law.

A wonderful illustration of Christ’s imputed righteousness is found in Jesus’ parable of the wedding banquet. Guests are invited to the king’s celebration from every street corner, and they are brought in, “the bad as well as the good” (Matthew 22:10). All the guests have something in common: they are each given a wedding garment. They are not to wear their street clothes in the banquet hall but are to be dressed in the garment of the king’s providing. They are covered in a gracious gift. In a similar way, we, as guests invited into God’s house, have been given the pure white robe of Christ’s righteousness. We receive this gift of God’s grace by faith.


Here a little, there a little...eventually we can get it right.
J.
 

Johann

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The only " Righteousness" that anybody will ever know or posses I ins the Righteousness that is IMPUTED to them if they Trust Jesus alone to save them..
Lev_7:18 And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity.

Lev_17:4 And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the LORD before the tabernacle of the LORD; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:

Rom_4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Rom_4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Rom_4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

Rom_4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom_5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


We need the righteousness of Christ imputed to us because we have no righteousness of our own. We are sinners by nature, and we cannot make ourselves righteous—we cannot place ourselves in right standing with God. We need Christ’s righteousness imputed to us—meaning, we need His holiness before God credited to our account.

In His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus makes our need for imputed righteousness plain. He says, “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). This comes after Jesus had just corrected His listeners’ misunderstanding of the law. In Matthew 5:20, Jesus says that, if His hearers want to enter into the kingdom of heaven, their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, who were the experts in the knowledge of the law.

Then, in Matthew 5:21–47, Jesus radically redefines obedience to the law from mere outward conformity, which characterized the “righteousness” of the Pharisees, to an obedience of both outward and inward conformity. Six times in this passage, He says, “You have heard that it was said . . . but I tell you.” In this way, Jesus differentiated the requirements of the law as the people had been taught from its actual requirements. Obeying the law is more than simply abstaining from murder or adultery, for example. It’s also not getting angry with your brother and not lusting in your heart. At the end of this section of the sermon, Jesus says we must “be perfect” (verse 48).

At this point, the natural response is, “But I can’t be perfect,” which is absolutely true. In another place in Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus summarizes the Law of God with two commandments: love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37–40). These commands also condemn us, because has anyone ever loved the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength and loved his neighbor as himself? Everything we do, say, and think must be done, said, and thought from love for God and love for neighbor. We have never achieved that level of spirituality. We are not righteous.

Sin affects us to the very core of our being, and no matter how good we try to be, we will never meet God’s standard of perfection on our own. The Bible says that all our righteous deeds are like a “polluted garment” (Isaiah 64:6). Our own attempts at goodness are simply not good enough. We need an imputed righteousness, and for that we look to Christ.

On the cross, Jesus took our sin upon Himself and purchased our salvation. We have “been justified by his blood” (Romans 5:9), and part of that justification is an imputation of His own righteousness. Paul puts it this way: “For our sake [God] made [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus is righteous by virtue of His very nature—He is the Son of God. By God’s grace, “through faith in Jesus Christ,” that righteousness is given “to all who believe” (Romans 3:22). That’s imputation: the giving of Christ’s righteousness to sinners.

Having Christ’s righteousness imputed to us does not mean we automatically do what is right—that will come through the process of sanctification. What it does mean is that we are positionally righteous; even though we still sin, we are forensically or legally righteous. God has credited the righteousness of Christ to our account, and He did this when He saved us. In grace, the holiness of Jesus Christ is ascribed to us. Christ “has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30).

By having the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, we can be seen as sinless, as Jesus is sinless. This is amazing grace! We are not righteous in ourselves; rather, we possess Christ’s righteousness applied to our account. It is not our perfection but Christ’s that God sees when He brings us into fellowship with Himself. We are still sinners in practice, but the grace of God has declared us to have righteous standing before the law.

A wonderful illustration of Christ’s imputed righteousness is found in Jesus’ parable of the wedding banquet. Guests are invited to the king’s celebration from every street corner, and they are brought in, “the bad as well as the good” (Matthew 22:10). All the guests have something in common: they are each given a wedding garment. They are not to wear their street clothes in the banquet hall but are to be dressed in the garment of the king’s providing. They are covered in a gracious gift. In a similar way, we, as guests invited into God’s house, have been given the pure white robe of Christ’s righteousness. We receive this gift of God’s grace by faith.


Here a little, there a little...eventually we can get it right.
J.
I quote my college professor. " Christians aren't sinless, we just sin less."
Amen brother.
Christians, the genuine ones, also don't live in a state of never-ending sinning...but like your college professor rightly said...."we sin less."

I was telling another brother that I was "away" for a couple of months, arrived yesterday...and this topic is still going.

Then I stumbled upon this.....

There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on.

Something is wrong.
Shalom
J.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Before exploring whether or not Christians sin, let’s define a couple of terms. Regardless of how tattered the word Christian has become throughout history, the biblical definition of a “Christian” is one who is a Christ-follower, a disciple of Jesus (Acts 11:26). A Christian is NOT someone who has ascribed to a particular set of religious beliefs or practices, joined a church, prayed a prayer, or participated in certain sacraments or rituals. A Christian is a person who has responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44) by putting his or her whole faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8–9; John 3:15–18). Christians are those who have repented of their sin and have made Jesus Lord of their lives (Romans 10:9–10; Acts 2:38). They are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:6–7).

“Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God. We all sin (Romans 3:23), and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6). Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10).

When we come to Christ by faith and trust Him to forgive and cleanse us of all our sin, we are in that moment born again (John 3:3). That new birth of the spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). God gives the repentant sinner a new heart that is now turned toward obeying and pleasing Him rather than self (2 Corinthians 5:9; Romans 8:5–6). Whereas we were formerly slaves to sin, we are now “slaves to righteousness” (Romans 6:16). Sin’s control has been broken by the power of Jesus (Romans 6:6; Titus 2:14).

However, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants. In Romans 7:21–23, Paul admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life: “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.” Each battle with temptation is won or lost based upon how fully we are surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16–17).

The book of 1 John was written to Christians. The apostle says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

However, other passages clarify the boundaries of this ocean of grace. First John 3:6 says, “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” Verse 9 says that those who have been “born of God” will not continue to live sinfully. The implication is that this is not a matter of trying harder. Rather, it is the equivalent of saying, “A fish cannot remain on land for long because its nature is to seek water.” A fish could flop onto the shore and survive for a short time. But it was not made for land and cannot continue there. When we are born again, our natures change, and we cannot continue in sin. Christ not only erases our past sin; He also transforms our hearts so that we no longer desire it (Colossians 2:13–14).

Paul asked, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1–2). Although Christians will still sin after being saved, the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. Sin cannot continue being a lifestyle choice if we have surrendered our lives to Jesus. That’s what it means to say that Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9; Colossians 2:6). We have a new boss. We cannot be followers of Christ and followers of sin at the same time. They are going in opposite directions (Luke 9:23; 14:33). Romans 12:2 instructs, “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Renewal can take some time, but it is a process that produces a change of behavior.

When a true child of God goes astray, our Father administers discipline to bring him back into obedience. Hebrews 12:7–8 says, “It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” If a professing Christian can choose a lifestyle of sin without experiencing enough discipline to bring him to repentance, then according to this Scripture, it is highly unlikely that that person is a child of God.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue in sin? No.

Scripture indicates that, while we will always “fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to “make us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image” (2 Corinthians 3:18, NLT).
Good post. I would just add that being cleansed of sin (past, present and future) is spiritual. So that at any moment, if we die, we go to be with God, presented spotless, white as snow.
So where is the sin? "Sin dwells in the members of our flesh." As you pointed out in Romans 7 ( which many get confused about), there is an inner war going on between the spirit and the flesh.
We no longer practice sin or are slaves to it as before, but backslide sometimes.
We find ourselves commiting the same sins that unbelievers do, that we did before.
>> The difference is, we have been forgiven and so they are not sins unto death.
 
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robert derrick

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So, according to you, we have "sinful Christians" and those who are not sinning, such as yourself?
Yes, of course. The lukewarm don't mind being minded in life with some works of the flesh from time to time, and the saints a fervent enough about not sinning against Christ and losing fellowship with Him, to do what is necessary with the faith, to ensure they don't.

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

If a Christian doesn't want to do these things with their faith, to ensure they never fall, but rather are satisfied with sinning from time to time, then that is their choice.

 

robert derrick

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You are evasive, as you don't want to answer @mailmandan but resort to circular reasoning.
J.
Evasive and circular.

I respond to the challenge that I am not a sinner now, and then make my own challenge about being of God or the devil while sinning.

Evasive and circular.

That's not an accusation attached to reality.

I'll not be responding to meaningless jabs any more.

As I said, if you have a serious question or challenge, then I'd be glad to respond to it.