Do Christians sin like the unbelievers?

[mailmandan]

But @mailmandan

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

More KJV only confusion. See - 1 John 5 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

 

[mailmandan]

1 John 5:18 - We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. (AMPC)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

More KJV only confusion. See - 1 John 5 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

“Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.” (Matthew 15:6)

The tradition of Robertson’s Word Pictures.

“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matthew 15:9)

“Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” (Matthew 16:6)

And of the leaven of @mailmandan

 

[mailmandan]

“Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.” (Matthew 15:6)

The tradition of Robertson’s Word Pictures.

“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matthew 15:9)

“Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” (Matthew 16:6)

And of the leaven of @mailmandan

Has nothing to do with the traditions of the Pharisees/commandments of men. It's your leaven of sinless perfection that we need to be aware of. (1 John 1:8-10) People who teach sinless perfection are all about exalting themselves and condemning others. Reminds me of the Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. (Luke 18:9-14)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Folks probably refuse to answer because it's a loaded question that implies folks who do not promote sinless perfection are promoting a license to sin. 1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. Sin is never acceptable and we should always strive to not sin, yet nobody was ever sinless 100% of the time except for Jesus Christ.

While Christians can sin and mess up, this does not mean that a Christian sinning at point A in time, means that they are not capable of keeping God’s commands in point B in time. John surely is not saying that 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1 are the continual state of the believer their whole entire lives because he tells them to “sin not.” If John did not think they could not “sin not” then he would have said so. The same can be said for the words of Jesus Christ. Jesus says, “sin no more” to two people (John 5:14) (John 8:11). Again, Jesus would not say this if He did not really mean what He said here. So while a Christian may experience sin on occasion in their lifetime, they cannot base their past sight experience on how they believe, but they must believe Scripture by faith, and battle and fight to overcome sin in this life by faith. Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Corinthians 10:13, etcetera all suggest the possibility of overcoming sin in this life. For we walk by faith and not by sight. But many of you walk by sight and only believe what you experience in the real world. You don’t believe Scripture fully. God can deliver the Christian if only they truly believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 John 5:18 - We know [absolutely] that anyone born of God does not [deliberately and knowingly] practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him [Christ’s divine presence within him preserves him against the evil], and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch [him]. (AMPC)

The problem is that the Christian defining what is willful sin vs. unintentional sin can be defined in a myriad of ways. A Christian can think sinning once a day is okay with God and or sinning once a week. Also, the fact that many of you admit you will sin again as a matter of fact because of your fallen nature is admittance to willfully sinning. Also, all sin is done using one’s will. If this was not the case, then there would not be a judgment whereby God could not hold us accountable.

In other words, God is not going to say, “Hey, I understand. You could not control yourself.”
Nowhere does Scripture ever describe God saying anything like this.

For example, I cannot see how you can plainly read and believe James 1:12.

James 1:12 says:
“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”

In your view there is no resisting or enduring temptation so as to receive the crown of life. You are Once Saved Always Saved; Thus, you can sin and not lose salvation. No need to endure temptation to receive the crown of life for you. James 1:12 has to be twisted like a pretzel or go completely ignored in your belief system.

Anyways, the point here that God provides a way of escape or a route to overcome sin (1 Corinthians 10:13). Believers may not always succeed (like Moses, and Peter) from looking at one snapshot in time in their lives, but that is not to say they will not eventually mature to a point (in time) whereby they can overcome. It should be every believer’s hope to put away sin for good out of their lives. If not, then one is merely giving into sin. But many of you try to play both sides of the fence (i.e. we sin and do righteousness). But this is what being lukewarm is all about.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Has nothing to do with the traditions of the Pharisees/commandments of men. It's your leaven of sinless perfection that we need to be aware of. (1 John 1:8-10) People who teach sinless perfection are all about exalting themselves and condemning others. Reminds me of the Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. (Luke 18:9-14)

First, while some Conditional Salvationists may be like the Pharisee, you cannot say this is the case for all Conditional Salvationists because you are not God to truly be able to read their thoughts and know about the details of their day to day life with the Lord.

Second, the problem with your “we must sin” interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is that the context does not in any way support you.
John says to “sin not” (1 John 2:1). John says that we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we keep His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). Breaking the law or the commandment is sin (1 John 3:4). So if you hold to 1 John 1:8 in that you must always sin, you are technically not keeping His commandments according to 1 John 2:4 (Which is not good news for you).

Three, Luke 18:9-14 is a great example of how we do need God’s grace. There are Christian law groups out there that downplay or ignore in being saved by God’s grace. Some of the churches of Christ I have attended appear to focus more on making it all about law to be saved vs. us first being saved by God’s grace and making that our foundation (i.e. 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). But what many of you fail to understand in the sin and still be saved camp is the second part in 1 John 1:9. Confessing of sins is to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That’s the second part that your group ignores because you all sing the song of how you must always sin this side of Heaven (When the Bible does not say that). You take 3-5 verses out of context to the rest of the Bible to make your sin and still be saved belief work.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

More KJV only confusion. See - 1 John 5 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Learn more about A.T. Robertson and his problems here:

A.T. Robertson

 

[Michiah-Imla]

People who teach sinless perfection are all about exalting themselves and condemning others.

And the people who teach Sin-Perfection, what are they all about?

Allowing sin and condemning the righteous?

Beware:

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil” (1 John 3:9-10)

Has nothing to do with the traditions of the Pharisees/commandments of men

It has EVERYTHING to do with it!

 

[mailmandan]

And the people who teach Sin-Perfection, what are they all about?

Allowing sin and condemning the righteous?

Beware:

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin… In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil” (1 John 3:9-10)

It has EVERYTHING to do with it!

So according to you, only those who have lived a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) from the moment they are born again to the end of their life on earth is a child of God and everyone else is a child of the devil? Those who believe so are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness.

Luke 18:9 - Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” *That's a lot of "I" with the Pharisee. Sound familiar? Let that sink in.*

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (NASB)

1 John 3:9 - No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God’s nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God. (AMPC)

Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament

1 John 3:9

Doeth no sin (αμαρτιαν ου ποιε). Linear present active indicative as in verse 1 John 3:4 (NAS) like αμαρτανε in verse 1 John 3:8 (NAS)
The child of God does not have the habit of sin.

His seed (σπερμα αυτου). God's seed, "the divine principle of life" (Vincent). Cf. 1 John 3:1 (NAS)

And he cannot sin (κα ου δυνατα αμαρτανειν). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means "and he cannot commit sin" as if it were κα ου δυνατα αμαρτειν or αμαρτησα (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive αμαρτανειν can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of αμαρτανε in verse 1 John 3:8 and αμαρτανων as in 1 John 3:6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see αμαρτητε and αμαρτη in 1 John 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of αμαρτανειν here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Romans 6:1 επιμενωμεν τη αμαρτια (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with αμαρτησωμεν in Romans 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).

1 John 3 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

130

So according to you, only those who have lived a sinless… perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) from the moment they are born again to the end of their life on earth is a child of God and everyone else is a child of the devil?

Don’t you believe the scriptures? This is expressly taught in the Bible. The problem is you are weak in the faith and have not experienced the power of the Spirit in your life. Perhaps you have quenched the Spirit just enough in your life as to be of no power with it.

1 John 3:8
1 Thessalonians 5:19

Luke 18:9 - Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others

I trusted in myself before I was born again and indeed I though that I was better than some people. But since confessing to the Lord to be merciful to me a sinner and believing the gospel I have since obeyed his voice:

“Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14)

And he cannot sin (κα ου δυνατα αμαρτανειν). This is a wrong translation

Yea, hath God said…

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

Yes, if an unbeliever sins, we have the advocate. We should warn him and convert him!

“Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:20)

 

[L.A.M.B.]

IMO:
Take it or leave IT; sin is anything that SEPERATES a person from God. The wages of sin is death, x's 2 .

Sin is plainly defined in the word, the lust of the eyes, lust of the heart and sins of the flesh. NONE OF THESE WILL ENTER HEAVEN ! I do believe there are greater sins and lesser sins bc Jesus spoke of the greater and lesser stripes that would be administered.

ANYONE can commit sin, believers or unbelievers for we are ALL of sinful flesh. We as followers of Christ have instruction in God's word that tells us to crucify our flesh ( subdue and bring it under subjection; self- control) to take up OUR cross and FOLLOW Him in obedience.

The difference between us is that we have BELIEVED that Jesus died for our past sins and in accepting the gift of salvation we are covered by his righteousness and justified. They will remain CONDEMNED bc of their unbelief and rejection of Christ.

If we are led by the Spirit then we will be mindful of the word and temptations of sins.
It is a growing process that is defined by the Spirit inspired Word of God.

If a believer sins and holds onto that sin and doesn't repent and confess before Christ but allows it to grow and takes on other sins eventually they will love their sin more than they love their faith and they will turn back to a complete life of sin ! There are so many examples of the times the Israelites backslid on God and received his wrath.

But you are free to deny this by misquoting verses, and saying I'm misled.....lol .I'm stating my understanding of my opinion in the word.

 

[mailmandan]

Don’t you believe the scriptures? This is expressly taught in the Bible. The problem is you are weak in the faith and have not experienced the power of the Spirit in your life. Perhaps you have quenched the Spirit just enough in your life as to be of no power with it...

I absolutely believe the scriptures. I just don't believe you and who are you to judge the power of the Spirit in my life or my faith? What makes you think you are so special? Your battle is with self righteousness and 1 John 1:8 continues to remain your achilles heel - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[robert derrick]

The Key in Galatians 5, is to not make a practice to sin. @Johann

If you claim to be a Christian and come home and beat your wife... or you have thoughts of meanness and greed. That is what is counted as practicing Sin. Growing closer to God and growing Christ, the flesh starts to become lessened, and the practice doesn't become so problematic. Our flesh does still mess up when we fail in either loving God, and loving others.

That is why the message Jesus shared was to Love God first -> seeking things from God from the heavenly, and to Love God others -> regardless of the circumstances that may be going on.

While practising sin, we are of the devil,a nd not born of God.

The flesh doesn't mess up. Sinning against God is not messing up, it's practising the works of the devil. The flesh is mortal, not the sinner. The soul is the one sinning with the flesh.

If the circumstances going on are sinning against God, then we are not seeking heavenly things, nor loving God: we are sinning enemies of God.

If the circumstances going on are tirbulation around us, and we are standing in the faith, it is because we are still seeking heavenly things and loving God.

No one sinning is of God, but of the devil.

Sin is not messing up, and it is not the flesh doing it, but the soul with the flesh.

 

[robert derrick]

Do Christians sin like the unbelievers?

What's in a name? What we do is what we are. Titles are meaningless, when deeds prove otherwise.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him.

Professing Christians are sinning, not Jesus lovers.

 

[MatthewG]

Okay thank you for sharing your perspective, Robert.

 

[robert derrick]

Do Christians sin like the unbelievers?

Does a sweet fountain produce bitter water? A good tree produce evil fruit?

Does any fish swim on land? Or just flop around like other fish on land.

The question is redundant: Do Christians sin? No, the rest that are sinning are unbelieving sinners.

 

[robert derrick]

Do Christians sin like the unbelievers?

If we are sinning, we are unbelieving sinners; otherwise, believing is sinning, and sinning is not unbelieving.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

[mailmandan]

Learn more about A.T. Robertson and his problems here:

A.T. Robertson

What problems? “A.T. Robertson was one of the greatest scholars in the seminary’s rich history, perhaps the greatest of all,” said seminary historian Gregory A. Wills, who is also dean of the school of theology. “He did more than any other to establish the seminary’s reputation for scholarship.”

“Robertson’s life and his work stand as a monumental achievement pointing to the true essence of evangelical scholarship,” R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Seminary, said of the famed Greek New Testament scholar. “The very fact that we are having this discussion 80 years after his death is an indication of the power of a teacher and, in particular, the power of a teacher in the service of the Christian church.”

A.T. Robertson & his 'monumental achievement' | Baptist Press

You teach "type 2 works salvation" which is a major problem that you need to learn more about.

 

[Gospel Believer]

Before exploring whether or not Christians sin, let’s define a couple of terms. Regardless of how tattered the word Christian has become throughout history, the biblical definition of a “Christian” is one who is a Christ-follower, a disciple of Jesus (Acts 11:26). A Christian is NOT someone who has ascribed to a particular set of religious beliefs or practices, joined a church, prayed a prayer, or participated in certain sacraments or rituals. A Christian is a person who has responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44) by putting his or her whole faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8–9; John 3:15–18). Christians are those who have repented of their sin and have made Jesus Lord of their lives (Romans 10:9–10; Acts 2:38). They are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:6–7).

“Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God. We all sin (Romans 3:23), and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6). Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10).

When we come to Christ by faith and trust Him to forgive and cleanse us of all our sin, we are in that moment born again (John 3:3). That new birth of the spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). God gives the repentant sinner a new heart that is now turned toward obeying and pleasing Him rather than self (2 Corinthians 5:9; Romans 8:5–6). Whereas we were formerly slaves to sin, we are now “slaves to righteousness” (Romans 6:16). Sin’s control has been broken by the power of Jesus (Romans 6:6; Titus 2:14).

However, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants. In Romans 7:21–23, Paul admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life: “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.” Each battle with temptation is won or lost based upon how fully we are surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16–17).

The book of 1 John was written to Christians. The apostle says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

However, other passages clarify the boundaries of this ocean of grace. First John 3:6 says, “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” Verse 9 says that those who have been “born of God” will not continue to live sinfully. The implication is that this is not a matter of trying harder. Rather, it is the equivalent of saying, “A fish cannot remain on land for long because its nature is to seek water.” A fish could flop onto the shore and survive for a short time. But it was not made for land and cannot continue there. When we are born again, our natures change, and we cannot continue in sin. Christ not only erases our past sin; He also transforms our hearts so that we no longer desire it (Colossians 2:13–14).

Paul asked, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1–2). Although Christians will still sin after being saved, the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. Sin cannot continue being a lifestyle choice if we have surrendered our lives to Jesus. That’s what it means to say that Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9; Colossians 2:6). We have a new boss. We cannot be followers of Christ and followers of sin at the same time. They are going in opposite directions (Luke 9:23; 14:33). Romans 12:2 instructs, “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Renewal can take some time, but it is a process that produces a change of behavior.

When a true child of God goes astray, our Father administers discipline to bring him back into obedience. Hebrews 12:7–8 says, “It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” If a professing Christian can choose a lifestyle of sin without experiencing enough discipline to bring him to repentance, then according to this Scripture, it is highly unlikely that that person is a child of God.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue in sin? No.

Scripture indicates that, while we will always “fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to “make us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image” (2 Corinthians 3:18, NLT).

Nobody is out there sinning " by accident".... Pretty much every sin is a " Willful' one...When you sin, willfully or not, why not do the same thing with your sin that God does---- put it on the Cross...and leave it there!