The only " Righteousness" that anybody will ever know or posses I ins the Righteousness that is IMPUTED to them if they Trust Jesus alone to save them..
Do Christians sin like the unbelievers?
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robert derrick
Well-Known Member
When I speak of my own personal opinion about the things of God, I make sure I say so. I don't try to speak for everyone else.
Apparently, you only know and possess an imputed righteousness by faith alone. But there is a righteousness in Scripture, that you don't speak of, which is only by doing it: it's called being righteous, which is not the same as being imputed righteousness only:
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
There are those only imputed righteousness by faith alone, and then there are those being righteous as Jesus is, by doing His righteousness.
The former are doctrinally righteous only, and the latter are righteous in works by doing the word, and so are being righteous in deed and in truth.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
It's one thing to believe we love God and man, but it's a better thing to do it.
God is not a God of believing only, but is the God of the doers by His faith:
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
Doctrinal righteousness by faith alone, is not enough to be justified by Christ:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
No.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Yes.
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Those who are doing the word, and not believing only, do see the justification in doing the truth, and not just believing the truth, that Jesus is the true God:
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
I'm so tired of debating James vs Paul, which is what this all boils down to, I don't have the patience or stomach to go through it again....believe as you wish...
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In regards to James vs. Paul, the harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
In regards to 1 John 3:7, John is simply saying people who do or practice righteousness show that they are righteous. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. (NAS) Children of God do not practice righteousness in order to become righteous, but BECAUSE they are righteous. In CONTRAST with those who practice sin and are of the devil in 1 John 1:8. Works-salvationists typically confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and the end result is 'works righteousness.'
Righteousness by faith (in Christ alone) is enough to be justified by Christ. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1 etc..). Christ's finished work of redemption (which is the OBJECT of our faith) is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
So James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*
You may know me better as “ blood Bought 1953”......( i don’t know why I can’t sign in with that name anymore) ......with that in mind, you will instantly realize that as always, I agree with everything you say....keep up the good work, brother!
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
This is no debate. You come to me and tell me the only righteousness there is, is of your own faith alone, and I tell you there is also the righteousness of doing it, that you are ignorant of.
You have your doctrinal righteousness only, and I seek the righteousness that is only by doing it.
If you don't want anyone disagreeing with you, then don't try to push your ideas on them. Keep your own faith alone to yourself. I don't want anything to do with it.
You state and try to explain your “ take” on Scripture, which is your right to do.....I do the same....I don’t care if anybody agrees or disagrees with me....you do not want anything to do with my doctrine and I likewise reject yours.....if my views offend you, stop reading them.....I am not really posting to you anyway—— I use Confused people like you as “ Springboards” to get the Truth Of Paul’s Gospel Of Grace out there for the Newbies in the crowd that have yet to be ruined by Legalists , Leaven Spreaders and Tares.....I preach “ Nothing But The Blood Of Jesus” for Salvation....If you or anybody else has a problem with that, all I can say is that everybody has “ the right to be wrong”...... if you don’t like it or if you can’t stand the heat— “ Stay out of the Kitchen”....
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Right. You don't start arguments, you just step in selflessly to rescue the ignorant, who can't read, and decide, and speak for themselves.
Faith aloners are the Christian heroes of our time.
Excellent @maimandan.....
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts].
AMPC
That we have no sin
Ὅτι that, may be taken merely as a mark of quotation: “If we say, sin we have not.” On the phrase to have sin, see on Joh_16:22, and compare have fellowship, 1Jn_1:3. Sin (ἁμαρτίαν) is not to be understood of original sin, or of sin before conversion, but generally. “It is obvious that this ἔχειν ἁμαρτίαν (to have sin), is infinitely diversified, according to the successive measure of the purification and development of the new man. Even the apostle John does not exclude himself from the universal if we say” (Ebrard).
Heathen authors say very little about sin, and classic paganism had little or no conception of sin in the Gospel sense. The nearest approach to it was by Plato, from whose works a tolerably complete doctrinal statement might be gathered of the origin, nature, and effects of sin. The fundamental idea of ἁμαρτία (sin) among the Greeks is physical; the missing of a mark (see on Mat_1:21; see on Mat_6:14); from which it develops into a metaphysical meaning, to wander in the understanding. This assumes knowledge as the basis of goodness; and sin, therefore, is, primarily, ignorance. In the Platonic conception of sin, intellectual error is the prominent element. Thus: “What then, I said, is the result of all this? Is not this the result - that other things are indifferent, and that wisdom is the only good, and ignorance the only evil?” (“Euthydemus,” 281). “The business of the founders of the state will be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which has been already declared by us to be the greatest of all - they must continue to rise until they arrive at the good” (“Republic,” vii., 519). Plato represents sin as the dominance of the lower impulses of the soul, which is opposed to nature and to God (see “Laws,” ix., 863. “Republic,” i., 351). Or again, as an inward want of harmony. “May we not regard every living being as a puppet of the gods, either their plaything only or created with a purpose - which of the two we cannot certainly know? But this we know, that these affections in us are like cords and strings which pull us different and opposite ways, and to opposite actions; and herein lies the difference between virtue and vice” (“Laws,” i., 644). He traces most sins to the influence of the body on the soul. “In this present life, I reckon that we make the nearest approach to knowledge when we have the least possible communion or fellowship with the body, and are not infected with the bodily nature, but remain pure until the hour when God himself is pleased to release us. And then the foolishness of the body will be cleared away, and we shall be pure, and hold converse with other pure souls, and know of ourselves the clear light everywhere, which is no other than the light of truth” (“Phedo,” 67).
We find in the classical writers, however, the occasional sense of the universal faultiness of mankind, though even Plato furnishes scarcely any traces of accepting the doctrine of innate depravity. Thus Theognis: “The sun beholds no wholly good and virtuous man among those who are now living” (615). “But having become good, to remain in a good state and be good, is not possible, and is not granted to man. God only has this blessing; but man cannot help being bad when the force of circumstances overpowers him” (Plato, “Protagoras,” 344). “ How, then: is it possible to be sinless? It is impossible; but this is possible, to strive not to sin” (“Epictetus,” iv., 12, 19).
Vincent
Johann
thelord's_pearl
Well-Known Member
No, Christians don't sin like the unbelievers! We don't intentionally or practice sin like unbelievers who are lost and unaware of the good and evil forces at work!
True, which is why the work of God begins within the heart first to purify the soul at once, that the outside may be clean: instant inward and outward sanctification of Christ.
The Christian saint is given that power to guard the heart from receiving again the lust of the world to sin again.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Now for all the lies against the truth of Scripture:
Not true: All have sinned, not all are still sinning.
Christ has come in the flesh.
Partly true half-lie: true with things needful for the body, not with sinning with the body.
Mortal flesh, like all living creatures, have needs of the flesh to survive: breath, food, drink, rest, sleep, exercise...
It is the soul and spirit of a man that lusts to sin with the flesh, and so even sins against his own body.
Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
The body wants to eat and drink, It is the soul that lusts to be a glutton and drunkard, which is not at all good for the body, but is most pleasurable for the soul, at least for a season until the body gets it the morning after. The the soul and spirit is not so happy about the night before.
Partially true again with an implied lie: True for the wretched double minded, not true for the saints delivered therefrom:
Quoting wretched double mindedness in Rom 7 is only for them that are still carnal and sold under sin, Which does not include the saints delivered from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of Life in Rom 8.
Partially true again, with yet another implied lie about them that are no more double minded:
They doing righteousness at all times according to the commandment, are saying that they are without sin.
I personally have never heard nor even read any Christian saint say any such thing: can anyone please provide a quote of anyone on this sight saying these words?
The only ones who come close to it, are many Christian sinners accusing saints of saying so.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
The Big Lie:
And so, the conclusion of sinful Christian theology is: they do sin, and certainly will sin. And there certainly is no 'if', and's, nor but's about it.
A falsehood wrapped in humility:
Sinful Christians only agree with God about sinning: they do not confess from the heart with godly sorrow unto repentance of sinning.
Just like all unbelieving sinners, their sorrow is only of the world again and again and again at being found out, not the godly sorrow that repents of it.
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
All sinners, whether Christian or unbelieving, are still dying from their ongoing sinning, but only Christian sinners don't believe it is dying to God and His fellowship.
Do sinful Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue to sin? Well, yes and no. Their spirit doesn't want to, but the body does, and so it's not really them that do it, but the rascally bad ol' body only. It's a little complicated.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
How does one declare on the one hand that they do and will sin, and yet not be committed to sinning again and again and again? They say plainly when they will sin,and never 'if' at all.
Because it is no more their spiritual will to do so, but only their flesh's lust to do so: they do sin like all sinners, but they no more do it willingly with the spirit, but only begrudgingly by the body.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Like the man said, "Judge, I really didn't want to do that. I mean, it's like something just came over my body. I really couldn't help myself. I am so so sorry." "That's fine son, but both you and your body are going to prison."
The soul does all the sinning with the body. The body does not sin despite the soul. It is the soul and spirit of man that lust's to sin with the body, not the body lusting to sin against the soul and spirit of man.
Natural man denies both spirit and soul, and gives himself naturally to the things of the flesh and this life only. Sinful Christians teaching sinful Christianity, like all sinners, still give themselves to the flesh and this life only from time to time, but now they deny it is their own will to do so, but only that of the body:
Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.
Sinful Christianity denies the power of God to have power over their own will to repent of lusting and overcome sinning, and instead teach the form of godliness called sinful Christian living, that thinks to do more and more good, while continuing to do less and less evil unto the end.
They think they are becoming more and more like Jesus in this life, while never believing it is possible to be like Jesus in the days of His flesh.
All sinful Christians are unbelieving Christians, who desire to worship Jesus as God in their spirits, but only idolize His life as a man come in the flesh, and dual nature theology is it's crowning, and crowing achievement of self-justification for it: it's no more me doing the sinning, but my body only.
Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Jesus was made of the seed of David coming in the same mortal sinless flesh, as every other man born of a woman on earth.
[/QUOTE]
Why feel the need to "correct" me?
There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on, and on, and on...
Why?
J.
thelord's_pearl
Well-Known Member
- Dec 31, 2010
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In the Spirit - Impossible to sin
In the Flesh - Frequently to sin
In the Spirit - Sinless - Paved by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ
In the Flesh - Sinful - Time to evaluate my surroundings! Especially in finding a Spirit filled church!
“Evangelion” (that we call the gospel) is a Greek word, and signifies good, merry, glad and joyful tidings, that makes a man’s heart glad, and makes him sing, dance and leap for joy. - William Tyndale
It was nice to have attended the Indian Valley Church of God this past Sunday night where there was a wonderful Spirit among the pastor and congregation. Now... I am not Church of God or recommending any kind of denomination. But this pastor was right on the money on his thoughts os saved, sanctified, and being filled with the Holy Spirit! Even speaking in tongues in the delivery!
In the Flesh - Frequently to sin
In the Spirit - Sinless - Paved by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ
In the Flesh - Sinful - Time to evaluate my surroundings! Especially in finding a Spirit filled church!
“Evangelion” (that we call the gospel) is a Greek word, and signifies good, merry, glad and joyful tidings, that makes a man’s heart glad, and makes him sing, dance and leap for joy. - William Tyndale
It was nice to have attended the Indian Valley Church of God this past Sunday night where there was a wonderful Spirit among the pastor and congregation. Now... I am not Church of God or recommending any kind of denomination. But this pastor was right on the money on his thoughts os saved, sanctified, and being filled with the Holy Spirit! Even speaking in tongues in the delivery!
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Why feel the need to "correct" me?
There are more than 45,000 denominations globally. Followers of Jesus span the globe. But the global body of more than 2 billion Christians is separated into thousands of denominations. Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Apostolic, Methodist — the list goes on, and on, and on...
Why?
J.
[/QUOTE]
If someone addresses me with a teaching, then I have an obligation to respond.
And, I'm not correcting you. I'm correcting what you teach.
If you want to be corrected, that is entirely up to you.
This is a doctrinal dispute forum, not a pastoring site.
I do not believe anyone should offer any personal ministerial counselling about living for Christ, to anyone that does not ask.
My only requirement, is that if someone wants to correct what I teach, they first accurately understand it, and then address specifics, which is what I do.
Too many people just talk around each other, or get personal about it.
Also, I've ceased endless arguments. If we can't agree on one or two Scriptures, then we won't agree on a hundred.
However, I do like being corrected for my own benefit, so if there is any specific point I have made, that you would like to address, I'd be glad to hear it.
So, according to you, we have "sinful Christians" and those who are not sinning, such as yourself?
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