Do Christians sin like the unbelievers?

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Johann

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Before exploring whether or not Christians sin, let’s define a couple of terms. Regardless of how tattered the word Christian has become throughout history, the biblical definition of a “Christian” is one who is a Christ-follower, a disciple of Jesus (Acts 11:26). A Christian is NOT someone who has ascribed to a particular set of religious beliefs or practices, joined a church, prayed a prayer, or participated in certain sacraments or rituals. A Christian is a person who has responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44) by putting his or her whole faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8–9; John 3:15–18). Christians are those who have repented of their sin and have made Jesus Lord of their lives (Romans 10:9–10; Acts 2:38). They are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:6–7).

“Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God. We all sin (Romans 3:23), and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6). Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10).

When we come to Christ by faith and trust Him to forgive and cleanse us of all our sin, we are in that moment born again (John 3:3). That new birth of the spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). God gives the repentant sinner a new heart that is now turned toward obeying and pleasing Him rather than self (2 Corinthians 5:9; Romans 8:5–6). Whereas we were formerly slaves to sin, we are now “slaves to righteousness” (Romans 6:16). Sin’s control has been broken by the power of Jesus (Romans 6:6; Titus 2:14).

However, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants. In Romans 7:21–23, Paul admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life: “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.” Each battle with temptation is won or lost based upon how fully we are surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16–17).

The book of 1 John was written to Christians. The apostle says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

However, other passages clarify the boundaries of this ocean of grace. First John 3:6 says, “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” Verse 9 says that those who have been “born of God” will not continue to live sinfully. The implication is that this is not a matter of trying harder. Rather, it is the equivalent of saying, “A fish cannot remain on land for long because its nature is to seek water.” A fish could flop onto the shore and survive for a short time. But it was not made for land and cannot continue there. When we are born again, our natures change, and we cannot continue in sin. Christ not only erases our past sin; He also transforms our hearts so that we no longer desire it (Colossians 2:13–14).

Paul asked, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1–2). Although Christians will still sin after being saved, the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. Sin cannot continue being a lifestyle choice if we have surrendered our lives to Jesus. That’s what it means to say that Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9; Colossians 2:6). We have a new boss. We cannot be followers of Christ and followers of sin at the same time. They are going in opposite directions (Luke 9:23; 14:33). Romans 12:2 instructs, “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Renewal can take some time, but it is a process that produces a change of behavior.

When a true child of God goes astray, our Father administers discipline to bring him back into obedience. Hebrews 12:7–8 says, “It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” If a professing Christian can choose a lifestyle of sin without experiencing enough discipline to bring him to repentance, then according to this Scripture, it is highly unlikely that that person is a child of God.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue in sin? No.

Scripture indicates that, while we will always “fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to “make us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image” (2 Corinthians 3:18, NLT).
 

savedbygrace1

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Before exploring whether or not Christians sin, let’s define a couple of terms. Regardless of how tattered the word Christian has become throughout history, the biblical definition of a “Christian” is one who is a Christ-follower, a disciple of Jesus (Acts 11:26). A Christian is NOT someone who has ascribed to a particular set of religious beliefs or practices, joined a church, prayed a prayer, or participated in certain sacraments or rituals. A Christian is a person who has responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44) by putting his or her whole faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8–9; John 3:15–18). Christians are those who have repented of their sin and have made Jesus Lord of their lives (Romans 10:9–10; Acts 2:38). They are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:6–7).

“Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God. We all sin (Romans 3:23), and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6). Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10).

When we come to Christ by faith and trust Him to forgive and cleanse us of all our sin, we are in that moment born again (John 3:3). That new birth of the spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). God gives the repentant sinner a new heart that is now turned toward obeying and pleasing Him rather than self (2 Corinthians 5:9; Romans 8:5–6). Whereas we were formerly slaves to sin, we are now “slaves to righteousness” (Romans 6:16). Sin’s control has been broken by the power of Jesus (Romans 6:6; Titus 2:14).

However, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants. In Romans 7:21–23, Paul admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life: “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.” Each battle with temptation is won or lost based upon how fully we are surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16–17).

The book of 1 John was written to Christians. The apostle says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

However, other passages clarify the boundaries of this ocean of grace. First John 3:6 says, “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” Verse 9 says that those who have been “born of God” will not continue to live sinfully. The implication is that this is not a matter of trying harder. Rather, it is the equivalent of saying, “A fish cannot remain on land for long because its nature is to seek water.” A fish could flop onto the shore and survive for a short time. But it was not made for land and cannot continue there. When we are born again, our natures change, and we cannot continue in sin. Christ not only erases our past sin; He also transforms our hearts so that we no longer desire it (Colossians 2:13–14).

Paul asked, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1–2). Although Christians will still sin after being saved, the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. Sin cannot continue being a lifestyle choice if we have surrendered our lives to Jesus. That’s what it means to say that Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9; Colossians 2:6). We have a new boss. We cannot be followers of Christ and followers of sin at the same time. They are going in opposite directions (Luke 9:23; 14:33). Romans 12:2 instructs, “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Renewal can take some time, but it is a process that produces a change of behavior.

When a true child of God goes astray, our Father administers discipline to bring him back into obedience. Hebrews 12:7–8 says, “It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” If a professing Christian can choose a lifestyle of sin without experiencing enough discipline to bring him to repentance, then according to this Scripture, it is highly unlikely that that person is a child of God.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue in sin? No.

Scripture indicates that, while we will always “fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to “make us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image” (2 Corinthians 3:18, NLT).
That is a great post, and full of much truth.
 
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savedbygrace1

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Very informative OP! I'm dealing with someone right now who is promoting sinless perfection on this forum. See post #41 from the link below:

1st problem with O.S.A.S.
Do you remember Grandpa on cc? He said ''if the ten commandments are in your heart and mind, how could anyone convince themselves they fully obey them?''

He stated that years ago, a great point, and one I have never forgotten
 
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savedbygrace1

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I am reluctant to say I concur, because we might disagree on other doctrinal truths.
J.
What would that matter? If we agree on one post, we don't have to let any other differences get in the way of unity concerning what we do agree on
 

Robert Gwin

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Before exploring whether or not Christians sin, let’s define a couple of terms. Regardless of how tattered the word Christian has become throughout history, the biblical definition of a “Christian” is one who is a Christ-follower, a disciple of Jesus (Acts 11:26). A Christian is NOT someone who has ascribed to a particular set of religious beliefs or practices, joined a church, prayed a prayer, or participated in certain sacraments or rituals. A Christian is a person who has responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44) by putting his or her whole faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8–9; John 3:15–18). Christians are those who have repented of their sin and have made Jesus Lord of their lives (Romans 10:9–10; Acts 2:38). They are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:6–7).

“Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God. We all sin (Romans 3:23), and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6). Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10).

When we come to Christ by faith and trust Him to forgive and cleanse us of all our sin, we are in that moment born again (John 3:3). That new birth of the spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). God gives the repentant sinner a new heart that is now turned toward obeying and pleasing Him rather than self (2 Corinthians 5:9; Romans 8:5–6). Whereas we were formerly slaves to sin, we are now “slaves to righteousness” (Romans 6:16). Sin’s control has been broken by the power of Jesus (Romans 6:6; Titus 2:14).

However, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants. In Romans 7:21–23, Paul admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life: “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.” Each battle with temptation is won or lost based upon how fully we are surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16–17).

The book of 1 John was written to Christians. The apostle says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

However, other passages clarify the boundaries of this ocean of grace. First John 3:6 says, “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” Verse 9 says that those who have been “born of God” will not continue to live sinfully. The implication is that this is not a matter of trying harder. Rather, it is the equivalent of saying, “A fish cannot remain on land for long because its nature is to seek water.” A fish could flop onto the shore and survive for a short time. But it was not made for land and cannot continue there. When we are born again, our natures change, and we cannot continue in sin. Christ not only erases our past sin; He also transforms our hearts so that we no longer desire it (Colossians 2:13–14).

Paul asked, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1–2). Although Christians will still sin after being saved, the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. Sin cannot continue being a lifestyle choice if we have surrendered our lives to Jesus. That’s what it means to say that Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9; Colossians 2:6). We have a new boss. We cannot be followers of Christ and followers of sin at the same time. They are going in opposite directions (Luke 9:23; 14:33). Romans 12:2 instructs, “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Renewal can take some time, but it is a process that produces a change of behavior.

When a true child of God goes astray, our Father administers discipline to bring him back into obedience. Hebrews 12:7–8 says, “It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” If a professing Christian can choose a lifestyle of sin without experiencing enough discipline to bring him to repentance, then according to this Scripture, it is highly unlikely that that person is a child of God.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue in sin? No.

Scripture indicates that, while we will always “fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to “make us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image” (2 Corinthians 3:18, NLT).

No Joe we don't. I think the main difference is that we are conscientious of sin, and work to avoid it. Unbelievers have no regard for sin as they have chosen to be their own god, so anything they choose to do is acceptable. The only deterrent for some of them is worldly law, and many of them have no regard for that either.
 

robert derrick

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Very informative OP! I'm dealing with someone right now who is promoting sinless perfection on this forum. See post #41 from the link below:

1st problem with O.S.A.S.
Yes, not leaving plenty of wiggle room for sinning is a bad thing.

Very bad.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.


For committed sinners, who know they will keep on sinning unto the end, arguing against Scripture is good, when it allows for sinning against God.

There are two kinds of Christians: doers of the word and idealist hearers only. The former knows that God's commandments are to be done, and the latter think some of the commandments are only ideal impossibility.

They would worship Jesus as God, but only idolize His life as a man, and so give lip service only to walking in His steps to be righteous as He is righteous in the days of His flesh.
 

Johann

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Yes, not leaving plenty of wiggle room for sinning is a bad thing.

Very bad.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.


For committed sinners, who know they will keep on sinning unto the end, arguing against Scripture is good, when it allows for sinning against God.

There are two kinds of Christians: doers of the word and idealist hearers only. The former knows that God's commandments are to be done, and the latter think some of the commandments are only ideal impossibility.

They would worship Jesus as God, but only idolize His life as a man, and so give lip service only to walking in His steps to be righteous as He is righteous in the days of His flesh.
And Jesus is in heaven now making intercession in our stead and henceforth we....


2Co 5:16 From now on, therefore, we have da'as of no one from a purely human point of view; if indeed we have had da'as of Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach according to the basar, we now no longer so have da'as of him,
2Co 5:17 So that if anyone is in Moshiach, he is a bria chadasha (a new being) [Ro 8:1,10; Ga 6:15]: the old things passed away; hinei, all has become chadashot. [YESHAYAH 43:18; 65:17; Rv 21:5]
OJB


2Co 5:16 So that we henceforth have known no one according to the flesh, and even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him no more;
2Co 5:17 so that if any one is in Christ— he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.

...and no mention of the Ruach HaKodesh, what is His role in the life of the believer?
J.
 
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robert derrick

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Before exploring whether or not Christians sin, let’s define a couple of terms. Regardless of how tattered the word Christian has become throughout history, the biblical definition of a “Christian” is one who is a Christ-follower, a disciple of Jesus (Acts 11:26). A Christian is NOT someone who has ascribed to a particular set of religious beliefs or practices, joined a church, prayed a prayer, or participated in certain sacraments or rituals. A Christian is a person who has responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44) by putting his or her whole faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8–9; John 3:15–18). Christians are those who have repented of their sin and have made Jesus Lord of their lives (Romans 10:9–10; Acts 2:38). They are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:6–7).

“Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God. We all sin (Romans 3:23), and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6). Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10).

When we come to Christ by faith and trust Him to forgive and cleanse us of all our sin, we are in that moment born again (John 3:3). That new birth of the spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). God gives the repentant sinner a new heart that is now turned toward obeying and pleasing Him rather than self (2 Corinthians 5:9; Romans 8:5–6). Whereas we were formerly slaves to sin, we are now “slaves to righteousness” (Romans 6:16). Sin’s control has been broken by the power of Jesus (Romans 6:6; Titus 2:14).

However, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants. In Romans 7:21–23, Paul admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life: “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.” Each battle with temptation is won or lost based upon how fully we are surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16–17).

The book of 1 John was written to Christians. The apostle says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

However, other passages clarify the boundaries of this ocean of grace. First John 3:6 says, “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” Verse 9 says that those who have been “born of God” will not continue to live sinfully. The implication is that this is not a matter of trying harder. Rather, it is the equivalent of saying, “A fish cannot remain on land for long because its nature is to seek water.” A fish could flop onto the shore and survive for a short time. But it was not made for land and cannot continue there. When we are born again, our natures change, and we cannot continue in sin. Christ not only erases our past sin; He also transforms our hearts so that we no longer desire it (Colossians 2:13–14).

Paul asked, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1–2). Although Christians will still sin after being saved, the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. Sin cannot continue being a lifestyle choice if we have surrendered our lives to Jesus. That’s what it means to say that Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9; Colossians 2:6). We have a new boss. We cannot be followers of Christ and followers of sin at the same time. They are going in opposite directions (Luke 9:23; 14:33). Romans 12:2 instructs, “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Renewal can take some time, but it is a process that produces a change of behavior.

When a true child of God goes astray, our Father administers discipline to bring him back into obedience. Hebrews 12:7–8 says, “It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” If a professing Christian can choose a lifestyle of sin without experiencing enough discipline to bring him to repentance, then according to this Scripture, it is highly unlikely that that person is a child of God.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue in sin? No.

Scripture indicates that, while we will always “fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to “make us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image” (2 Corinthians 3:18, NLT).
Do Christians sin like the unbelievers?

Of course. Sin is sin the same for all, and if we do sin, then while we are sinning, we are just like unbelievers: unrighteous children of the devil. Simple.

But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

This is a well thought out thread for sinful Christianity. It has almost all the basic tenets for doing good and evil in one well written post. Very lovely.

And by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

I think it's even better than declaring doing the word and law of Christ is unrighteous, which really is a bit over the top, even for OSAS.
 

robert derrick

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Before exploring whether or not Christians sin, let’s define a couple of terms. Regardless of how tattered the word Christian has become throughout history, the biblical definition of a “Christian” is one who is a Christ-follower, a disciple of Jesus (Acts 11:26). A Christian is NOT someone who has ascribed to a particular set of religious beliefs or practices, joined a church, prayed a prayer, or participated in certain sacraments or rituals. A Christian is a person who has responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44) by putting his or her whole faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8–9; John 3:15–18). Christians are those who have repented of their sin and have made Jesus Lord of their lives (Romans 10:9–10; Acts 2:38). They are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:6–7).

“Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God. We all sin (Romans 3:23), and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6). Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10).

When we come to Christ by faith and trust Him to forgive and cleanse us of all our sin, we are in that moment born again (John 3:3). That new birth of the spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). God gives the repentant sinner a new heart that is now turned toward obeying and pleasing Him rather than self (2 Corinthians 5:9; Romans 8:5–6). Whereas we were formerly slaves to sin, we are now “slaves to righteousness” (Romans 6:16). Sin’s control has been broken by the power of Jesus (Romans 6:6; Titus 2:14).

However, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants. In Romans 7:21–23, Paul admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life: “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.” Each battle with temptation is won or lost based upon how fully we are surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16–17).

The book of 1 John was written to Christians. The apostle says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

However, other passages clarify the boundaries of this ocean of grace. First John 3:6 says, “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” Verse 9 says that those who have been “born of God” will not continue to live sinfully. The implication is that this is not a matter of trying harder. Rather, it is the equivalent of saying, “A fish cannot remain on land for long because its nature is to seek water.” A fish could flop onto the shore and survive for a short time. But it was not made for land and cannot continue there. When we are born again, our natures change, and we cannot continue in sin. Christ not only erases our past sin; He also transforms our hearts so that we no longer desire it (Colossians 2:13–14).

Paul asked, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1–2). Although Christians will still sin after being saved, the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. Sin cannot continue being a lifestyle choice if we have surrendered our lives to Jesus. That’s what it means to say that Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9; Colossians 2:6). We have a new boss. We cannot be followers of Christ and followers of sin at the same time. They are going in opposite directions (Luke 9:23; 14:33). Romans 12:2 instructs, “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Renewal can take some time, but it is a process that produces a change of behavior.

When a true child of God goes astray, our Father administers discipline to bring him back into obedience. Hebrews 12:7–8 says, “It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” If a professing Christian can choose a lifestyle of sin without experiencing enough discipline to bring him to repentance, then according to this Scripture, it is highly unlikely that that person is a child of God.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue in sin? No.

Scripture indicates that, while we will always “fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to “make us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image” (2 Corinthians 3:18, NLT).
The listing here of tenets for sinful Christianity is good, but not complete, There are others I have read elsewhere:

1. That all sin is not unrighteousness of the devil and evil. At least not, when sinful Christians do it, unlike evil unbelieving sinners.

But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

2. That the law of God is now dead on paper, so that doing it as written by the apostles, as that of James above, is not good, but evil.

3. That sinful Christians have no part in being saved and justified with God, except the part of now doing both good and evil, and not evil only.

They sometimes fulfill their heart's lust to sin, and sometimes refuse to do so. It's the ongoing 'struggle' of all sinners with lust for sin remaining in the heart, whether Christian or unbelieving.

4. Having no fellowship with God while sinning, is not having no salvation from God while sinning: Salvation and fellowship with God are not the same. Salvation is reconciliation to God, with or without His fellowship.

Other than these missing links, this rendering of sinful Christianity is a wonderful and amazing justification for not being justified by works, but by faith alone.

Yes, they are forever saved, and yes, they go on sinning unto the end of this life, and yes, they want to be more like Jesus as much as is humanly possible for sinners on earth, just not completely like Him:

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.

Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Which reminds me of another tenet:

5. Sinful Christians are never complete in Christ in this life, to be blameless in spirit, soul, and body. That is only in the resurrection of perfect living to come:

Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The soul and spirit, yes, but certainly not the body, And those who say otherwise are proud boasters, who may never actually say they have no sin, but they certainly think and act like it, which pride they must be delivered from for the sake of all our souls:

And Cain talked with Abel his brother.
 

robert derrick

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Before exploring whether or not Christians sin, let’s define a couple of terms.

Now for the weeds and tares of the argument, but first the only thing true that is said in it all:

QUOTE="Johann, post: 1325007, member: 18257"]

“Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God. [/QUOTE]

True, which is why the work of God begins within the heart first to purify the soul at once, that the outside may be clean: instant inward and outward sanctification of Christ.

The Christian saint is given that power to guard the heart from receiving again the lust of the world to sin again.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Now for all the lies against the truth of Scripture:

We all sin (Romans 3:23),
Not true: All have sinned, not all are still sinning.

Christ has come in the flesh.

However, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants.

Partly true half-lie: true with things needful for the body, not with sinning with the body.

Mortal flesh, like all living creatures, have needs of the flesh to survive: breath, food, drink, rest, sleep, exercise...

It is the soul and spirit of a man that lusts to sin with the flesh, and so even sins against his own body.

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

The body wants to eat and drink, It is the soul that lusts to be a glutton and drunkard, which is not at all good for the body, but is most pleasurable for the soul, at least for a season until the body gets it the morning after. The the soul and spirit is not so happy about the night before.

In Romans 7:21–23, Paul admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life: “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.” Each battle with temptation is won or lost based upon how fully we are surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16–17).

Partially true again with an implied lie: True for the wretched double minded, not true for the saints delivered therefrom:

Quoting wretched double mindedness in Rom 7 is only for them that are still carnal and sold under sin, Which does not include the saints delivered from the law of sin and death by the law of the Spirit of Life in Rom 8.

The book of 1 John was written to Christians. The apostle says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9).

Partially true again, with yet another implied lie about them that are no more double minded:

They doing righteousness at all times according to the commandment, are saying that they are without sin.

I personally have never heard nor even read any Christian saint say any such thing: can anyone please provide a quote of anyone on this sight saying these words?

The only ones who come close to it, are many Christian sinners accusing saints of saying so.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

The Big Lie:

And so, the conclusion of sinful Christian theology is: they do sin, and certainly will sin. And there certainly is no 'if', and's, nor but's about it.

But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

A falsehood wrapped in humility:

Sinful Christians only agree with God about sinning: they do not confess from the heart with godly sorrow unto repentance of sinning.

Just like all unbelieving sinners, their sorrow is only of the world again and again and again at being found out, not the godly sorrow that repents of it.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

All sinners, whether Christian or unbelieving, are still dying from their ongoing sinning, but only Christian sinners don't believe it is dying to God and His fellowship.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue in sin? No.


Scripture indicates that, while we will always “fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to “make us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image” (2 Corinthians 3:18, NLT).

Do sinful Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue to sin? Well, yes and no. Their spirit doesn't want to, but the body does, and so it's not really them that do it, but the rascally bad ol' body only. It's a little complicated.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

How does one declare on the one hand that they do and will sin, and yet not be committed to sinning again and again and again? They say plainly when they will sin,and never 'if' at all.

Because it is no more their spiritual will to do so, but only their flesh's lust to do so: they do sin like all sinners, but they no more do it willingly with the spirit, but only begrudgingly by the body.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Like the man said, "Judge, I really didn't want to do that. I mean, it's like something just came over my body. I really couldn't help myself. I am so so sorry." "That's fine son, but both you and your body are going to prison."

The soul does all the sinning with the body. The body does not sin despite the soul. It is the soul and spirit of man that lust's to sin with the body, not the body lusting to sin against the soul and spirit of man.

Natural man denies both spirit and soul, and gives himself naturally to the things of the flesh and this life only. Sinful Christians teaching sinful Christianity, like all sinners, still give themselves to the flesh and this life only from time to time, but now they deny it is their own will to do so, but only that of the body:

Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

Sinful Christianity denies the power of God to have power over their own will to repent of lusting and overcome sinning, and instead teach the form of godliness called sinful Christian living, that thinks to do more and more good, while continuing to do less and less evil unto the end.

They think they are becoming more and more like Jesus in this life, while never believing it is possible to be like Jesus in the days of His flesh.

All sinful Christians are unbelieving Christians, who desire to worship Jesus as God in their spirits, but only idolize His life as a man come in the flesh, and dual nature theology is it's crowning, and crowing achievement of self-justification for it: it's no more me doing the sinning, but my body only.

Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.


Jesus was made of the seed of David coming in the same mortal sinless flesh, as every other man born of a woman on earth.
 

robert derrick

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Before exploring whether or not Christians sin, let’s define a couple of terms. Regardless of how tattered the word Christian has become throughout history, the biblical definition of a “Christian” is one who is a Christ-follower, a disciple of Jesus (Acts 11:26). A Christian is NOT someone who has ascribed to a particular set of religious beliefs or practices, joined a church, prayed a prayer, or participated in certain sacraments or rituals. A Christian is a person who has responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44) by putting his or her whole faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8–9; John 3:15–18). Christians are those who have repented of their sin and have made Jesus Lord of their lives (Romans 10:9–10; Acts 2:38). They are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit (John 3:6–7).

“Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God. We all sin (Romans 3:23), and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6). Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10).

When we come to Christ by faith and trust Him to forgive and cleanse us of all our sin, we are in that moment born again (John 3:3). That new birth of the spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). God gives the repentant sinner a new heart that is now turned toward obeying and pleasing Him rather than self (2 Corinthians 5:9; Romans 8:5–6). Whereas we were formerly slaves to sin, we are now “slaves to righteousness” (Romans 6:16). Sin’s control has been broken by the power of Jesus (Romans 6:6; Titus 2:14).

However, we still live in the flesh, and the flesh is prone to want what it wants. In Romans 7:21–23, Paul admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life: “So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.” Each battle with temptation is won or lost based upon how fully we are surrendered to the control of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16–17).

The book of 1 John was written to Christians. The apostle says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:8–9). It is clear from this passage that even those who have been born again and redeemed by the blood of Jesus will still sin. Through thought, attitude, or action, we will “grieve” (Ephesians 4:30) and “quench” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) the Holy Spirit at times. But this passage also reassures us that God offers continual, ongoing grace whenever we agree with Him about our sin and ask for His cleansing.

However, other passages clarify the boundaries of this ocean of grace. First John 3:6 says, “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.” Verse 9 says that those who have been “born of God” will not continue to live sinfully. The implication is that this is not a matter of trying harder. Rather, it is the equivalent of saying, “A fish cannot remain on land for long because its nature is to seek water.” A fish could flop onto the shore and survive for a short time. But it was not made for land and cannot continue there. When we are born again, our natures change, and we cannot continue in sin. Christ not only erases our past sin; He also transforms our hearts so that we no longer desire it (Colossians 2:13–14).

Paul asked, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1–2). Although Christians will still sin after being saved, the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. Sin cannot continue being a lifestyle choice if we have surrendered our lives to Jesus. That’s what it means to say that Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9; Colossians 2:6). We have a new boss. We cannot be followers of Christ and followers of sin at the same time. They are going in opposite directions (Luke 9:23; 14:33). Romans 12:2 instructs, “Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Renewal can take some time, but it is a process that produces a change of behavior.

When a true child of God goes astray, our Father administers discipline to bring him back into obedience. Hebrews 12:7–8 says, “It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” If a professing Christian can choose a lifestyle of sin without experiencing enough discipline to bring him to repentance, then according to this Scripture, it is highly unlikely that that person is a child of God.

Do Christians sin? Yes. Do they willfully continue in sin? No.

Scripture indicates that, while we will always “fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23), we have the hope that the power of God is at work in us to “make us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image” (2 Corinthians 3:18, NLT).
Conclusion:

It's all very simple. Natural man teaches he is the hapless captive of his own body, because he is only flesh and blood, and God declares that man is created a living soul and spiritual being to have power over his own body in all things.

Jesus came to show all men it can be done, and so it is entirely possible to be done by the faith and power of the Spirit of God within, And being with God, even as the Word in the beginning, it is impossible not to do so.

For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Sinful Christianity teaches it can only be done in part at best: sometimes resisting sinning with the body, and sometimes hapless captive of the flesh. The reason being they have yet to receive the word to purify within the cup and platter first, and so lust remains within the heart to do evil whensoever the devil wills it for them to do.

They now know how to do both good and evil by grace in the name of the Lord, They know how to sometimes choose to do good, and receive honor among themselves, and they also know how to sometimes choose to do evil,and blame it on the flesh.

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

The saints are not so, They follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, because they sup with Him always within their pure hearts by grace, and refuse the evil always to choose the good only.

Because He is worth purging all lust and overcoming all sins today, they are become worthy to walk with Him in white in this life today:

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.


It's all about having the power of God within the heart to do so, or denying that such power can belong to men in mortal flesh, except only for the man Jesus.

When Christians sinners become honest with themselves, and believe to obey the Scriptures as written, They too can purify their hearts once for all, and not just idolize it as high ideal: Any man therefore by grace through the faith of Jesus, can surely know the power and Spirit of God to do so, and become sons of God, even as Jesus is the Son of God.

Until then, they just struggle along with continued lust and sinning in their half turned sinful Christianity.

Well, not all the double minded, like Paul, who don't teach it for life, but rather actually seek deliverance from such wretchedness. It is only them that have learned to celebrate grace around it.

The true doctrine of Christ in the blood of the Lamb is to purge all lust for sin from the heart, that all sinning with the flesh may be done away, in this life today.

And we need not worry about taking thought for sin tomorrow, because sufficient for the day is the overcoming of evil thereof.

The OSAS doctrine of sinful Christianity teaches a way around that, by wresting scripture to justify doing both good and evil in this life unto the end.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That's in the life, and if not in this life, then certainly not in the next.

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
 

Johann

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Conclusion:

It's all very simple. Natural man teaches he is the hapless captive of his own body, because he is only flesh and blood, and God declares that man is created a living soul and spiritual being to have power over his own body in all things.

Jesus came to show all men it can be done, and so it is entirely possible to be done by the faith and power of the Spirit of God within, And being with God, even as the Word in the beginning, it is impossible not to do so.

For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Sinful Christianity teaches it can only be done in part at best: sometimes resisting sinning with the body, and sometimes hapless captive of the flesh. The reason being they have yet to receive the word to purify within the cup and platter first, and so lust remains within the heart to do evil whensoever the devil wills it for them to do.

They now know how to do both good and evil by grace in the name of the Lord, They know how to sometimes choose to do good, and receive honor among themselves, and they also know how to sometimes choose to do evil,and blame it on the flesh.

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

The saints are not so, They follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, because they sup with Him always within their pure hearts by grace, and refuse the evil always to choose the good only.

Because He is worth purging all lust and overcoming all sins today, they are become worthy to walk with Him in white in this life today:

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.


It's all about having the power of God within the heart to do so, or denying that such power can belong to men in mortal flesh, except only for the man Jesus.

When Christians sinners become honest with themselves, and believe to obey the Scriptures as written, They too can purify their hearts once for all, and not just idolize it as high ideal: Any man therefore by grace through the faith of Jesus, can surely know the power and Spirit of God to do so, and become sons of God, even as Jesus is the Son of God.

Until then, they just struggle along with continued lust and sinning in their half turned sinful Christianity.

Well, not all the double minded, like Paul, who don't teach it for life, but rather actually seek deliverance from such wretchedness. It is only them that have learned to celebrate grace around it.

The true doctrine of Christ in the blood of the Lamb is to purge all lust for sin from the heart, that all sinning with the flesh may be done away, in this life today.

And we need not worry about taking thought for sin tomorrow, because sufficient for the day is the overcoming of evil thereof.

The OSAS doctrine of sinful Christianity teaches a way around that, by wresting scripture to justify doing both good and evil in this life unto the end.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That's in the life, and if not in this life, then certainly not in the next.

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
Conclusion
You are saying that you are a "good" person, already obtained sinless perfection in this life?
J.
 
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savedbygrace1

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No Joe we don't. I think the main difference is that we are conscientious of sin, and work to avoid it. Unbelievers have no regard for sin as they have chosen to be their own god, so anything they choose to do is acceptable. The only deterrent for some of them is worldly law, and many of them have no regard for that either.

That is a great point. A person may know they have been accepted by God and placed in a saved state if they have heartfelt conviction/consciousness of their sin before God. Unbelievers do not have that. The reason believers do, is because the law is written in their minds and placed on their hearts at the point of conversion, and:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Romans3:20
 
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GEN2REV

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Very informative OP! I'm dealing with someone right now who is promoting sinless perfection on this forum. See post #41 from the link below:

1st problem with O.S.A.S.
I checked your accusation and you're a liar.

No surprise.

Michiah-Imlah does not promote sinless perfection in that thread anywhere.

Can you post the exact post# of his where he claims to be 100% without sin?

If not, you don't have a case at all.

No surprise.
 

mailmandan

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I checked your accusation and you're a liar.

No surprise.

Michiah-Imlah does not promote sinless perfection in that thread anywhere.

Can you post the exact post# of his where he claims to be 100% without sin?

If not, you don't have a case at all.

No surprise.
Sinless perfection is strongly implied in posts #41 and #53 (and beyond) from the link below.

1st problem with O.S.A.S.

He refuses to answer my direct question with a direct YES or NO answer on whether or not he teaches sinless perfection and when I accuse him of teaching sinless perfection he does not deny it. Not hard to figure out. Your usual slander and sarcasm is uncalled for.
 

Johann

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Sinless perfection is strongly implied in posts #41 and #53 (and beyond) from the link below.

1st problem with O.S.A.S.

He refuses to answer my direct question with a direct YES or NO answer on whether or not he teaches sinless perfection and when I accuse him of teaching sinless perfection he does not deny it. Not hard to figure out. Your usual slander and sarcasm is uncalled for.
@mailmandan forget his slandering and non-sensical carnal humbuggery.
Just mark him and have no fellowship with him according to scripture.
The whole world is lying under a great deception starting with Orthodox/Modern Judaism and Immams to the point that the infallible holy Writ is now under attack.
Just go Rabbi Tovia Singer and his team on an aggressive campaign to discredit everything written in scripture, so the Immams, doing the same.
And on this platform all religions can come together in so-called unison with a "Christian forum" blanket spread over this can of worms.
We are dealing with play-actors/hypocrites here, not all, but the majority my brother.
Be selective in whom you are dealing with since I am not being edified at all here, witnessing the "selling of religions"..freedom of speech.

Really if you think it is bad here, go online and check out these ongoing debates against Christianity.
J.
 
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