Do Men Have Authority Over Women?

[EloyCraft]

Authority is misunderstood. It descends from Heaven to earth ordered to fit God's purposes for His creatures.
Remember when Pilate told Jesus that he had power of life and death over Him?
Jesus responded that Pilate would have no authority over Him had it not been given him from above. That sounds like Jesus telling him where the source of authority is from. It's not because Jesus follows with ' that's why theirs is the greater guilt'.
Jesus let's Pilate know the highest authority on earth isn't in his hands but in the hands of the religious authority of the Jewish leaders sitting in Moses'. Seat.
The religious authority is above the authority of states.
If one understands that Jerusalem in that moment is the whore riding the beast we get a picture of the dynamic of authority.
The highest authority on earth was in the hands of the scribes and Pharisees because they sat in the chair of Moses. On their hands, like their mother's hands was all the blood of the Prophets starting with Abel.
Relative to male and female the power to reproduce requires two types. A generative power that gives and a passive power that receives. God is the giver and the Church is the receiver. Hence Christ is the Groom we are the Bride.

 

[Scott Downey]

They were.

No, they were not. The time of the judges, the Israelites were not following the LORD, and he gave them over continually.
They actually did not follow the LORD all through the period of the kings too, and all the way through history they have resisted the Holy Spirit.

Example right in the text where is mentioned Deborah

Judges 4 21st Century King James Version

1 And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord when Ehud was dead.

2 And the Lord sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor, the captain of whose host was Sisera, who dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles.

3 And the children of Israel cried unto the Lord; for he had nine hundred chariots of iron, and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel.

 

[Mink57]

I read this thread in its entirety this morning. I must say, there's quite a bit of misunderstanding of the quoted scriptures!

To put it simply, if you follow Scripture, yes.

No, men don't have authority over women. We'll come back to this below...

Wives are to submit to husbands.

My (Catholic) Bible expresses that this verse (Ephesians 5:22) is one of Paul's "most misunderstood texts".

If one reads all of Ephesians 5, one can see that Paul was explaining the responsibilities toward the individuals within 'authoritative' relationships. Master and slave. Parent and child. But the entire passage doesn't begin at Eph. 5:22. It begins with 5:21 which states that we should 'submit' to one another out of reverence for Christ (my own Catholic Bible doesn't use the word 'submit'; instead, it says that we should be "subordinate" to one another. But for the sake of continuity, I will address the word as 'submit'--since the Catholic Bible did use the word 'submit' at one time.)

We pretty much know--and agree--that Ephesians was written in Greek. The word used in Greek is 'upotassomenoi' or 'hypotassomenoi'. The word actually comes from two words; 'hypo' (under) and 'tasso' (arrange). Greek translated into Latin...Latin translated into German...German translated into English. We can easily see how a word can become "lost in translation".

In Biblical times, a child was subject to their parents. Yes, sons and daughters were subject to mothers too. Children usually remained under their parents 'authority' until married. Once married, they were no longer subject to their parents, but to their spouses. And the spouses 'submit' to one another. They no longer 'submit' to their parents...or anyone else, for that matter.

I'm sorry to say, but it's mostly men who have taken 5:22 completely out of context, using it as a form of control over their wives. If we pay attention to 5:21, then we must understand that the 'submission' is to be mutual. After all, Jesus did say that we should "do unto others..." If my husband wants me to 'submit' to him, then he better be ready to submit to me.

Women are not to have authority over men in the church.

Women are to remain quiet in the church (yes that means women pastors is wholly against Scripture).[/QUOTE]

Paul is talking about what he expects...at the time he wrote this. Was he speaking for everyone who was spreading the word?

I tend to go with what makes the most sense, and to believe that wives are supposed to "obey" their husbands, doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Mink57]

No, they were not. The time of the judges, the Israelites were not following the LORD, and he gave them over continually.
They actually did not follow the LORD all through the period of the kings too, and all the way through history they have resisted the Holy Spirit.

Example right in the text where is mentioned Deborah

Judges 4 21st Century King James Version

1 And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord when Ehud was dead.

2 And the Lord sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor, the captain of whose host was Sisera, who dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles.

3 And the children of Israel cried unto the Lord; for he had nine hundred chariots of iron, and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel.

The people did follow the commands of the Lord, albeit, not right away. Once they got into hot water, The Lord spoke through Deborah. Having been oppressed by Jabin for 20 years, the Israelites cried out to the Lord...and gave commands through Deborah.

The Israelites are pretty well-known for their on-again-off-again relationship with God. They ignore God for even hundreds of years. And once things get so bad, they call upon God to save them. God has never let them down. And God will use whoever He wants--male or female--to do so.

 

[Scott Downey]

The people did follow the commands of the Lord, albeit, not right away. Once they got into hot water, The Lord spoke through Deborah. Having been oppressed by Jabin for 20 years, the Israelites cried out to the Lord...and gave commands through Deborah.

The Israelites are pretty well-known for their on-again-off-again relationship with God. They ignore God for even hundreds of years. And once things get so bad, they call upon God to save them. God has never let them down. And God will use whoever He wants--male or female--to do so.

They consistently failed in the covenant, it is given as the reason for the New Covenant, as said in Hebrews 8
They either did not follow the old covenant or did so half heartedly, and most of them did not know the LORD.
Stephen in Acts 7 and God pegged them exactly right.
Romans 10
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

All day long signifies continually as exactly the same way Stephen says to them, also saying they did not keep the LAW

Acts 7
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,
53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Hebrews 8
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Scott Downey]

v11 and v12 in Hebrews 8, in the OC, people had to be taught to know the LORD, as they were not born again by the Holy Spirit, those people who are not born again are as those in Genesis 6 where God says He strives with man.


3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

In our New Covenant with God through Christ, we are new spiritually alive creations in the Holy Spirit, and He teaches us everything we know about God, heaven, spiritual truths. So the NC relationship is not flawed as was the OC relationship, it is perfect. This is talking about our spirits, not our flesh as the body of our flesh is still dead because of sin, as Romans 8 says

 

[theefaith]

You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. There are some good things that came out of the women's liberation movement.

name one!

 

[theefaith]

tags

ellie runs for council!

What man would vote for a woman?

 

[Mink57]

tags

ellie runs for council!

What man would vote for a woman?

A smart man would vote for a smart woman.

 

[Mink57]

They consistently failed in the covenant, it is given as the reason for the New Covenant, as said in Hebrews 8
They either did not follow the old covenant or did so half heartedly, and most of them did not know the LORD.
Stephen in Acts 7 and God pegged them exactly right.
Romans 10
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

All day long signifies continually as exactly the same way Stephen says to them, also saying they did not keep the LAW

Acts 7
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers,
53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Scott, let's not drag this thread off into something else other that what's intended. The point is, that a woman can lead, AS APPOINTED BY THE LORD, just as easily as a man.

Period.

 

[Scott Downey]

Scott, let's not drag this thread off into something else other that what's intended. The point is, that a woman can lead, AS APPOINTED BY THE LORD, just as easily as a man.

Period.

Your basing an argument on the Old Covenant, which is done away with, just like Hebrews 8 says.
And Paul also says not to permit a woman to teach men. I can only go by what the scripture really says.
13 In that He saith “a new covenant,” He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Do not take a stance on doctrine for the New Covenant based on the Old Covenant, if the NC does not permit it.
Of course women can prophesy as it says in Acts, but they can not lead men, this is not the office of Prophet in the list beginning with Apostles for these women who have a prophesy from God.

1. Acts 2:17
   And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Acts 21:9
   And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[Scott Downey]

What example in Scripture of the New Covenant has a woman having authority as in leadership over a man?
Head of a church, pastor, anything like that is non existant.
Scripture is our example, you will not find this.

You will find women teaching children and other women.

1. 1 Corinthians 14:34
   Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 1 Corinthians 14:35
   And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

as you can see, many churches ignore this v34 and 35

"as also saith the LAW", interesting so the OC LAW Paul is using as justification, so right there is an example where the OC and NC are in agreement. He is arguing from the point of women generally being under authority of men, not ruling or leading men.

Philippians 4:3
And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women who labored with me in the Gospel, with Clement also and with my other fellow laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

These women who labored with Paul in the gospel, were the ministry of being a helper, not in a leadership position, so you just wont find a women apostle, and neither does Jesus appoint any women as apostles, although he had lots of women following as disciples and helpers.

 

[Mink57]

Your basing an argument on the Old Covenant, which is done away with, just like Hebrews 8 says.

No, I'm not. The NEW covenant says, in part is "DO UNTO OTHERS". You want me t 'submit' to you? You'd better be willing to 'submit' to me!

And Paul also says not to permit a woman to teach men. I can only go by what the scripture really says.
13 In that He saith “a new covenant,” He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Paul says that he doesn't permit a woman to teach men. He doesn't say that ALL men shouldn't allow a woman to teach men. Like I asked before, does he speak for ALL men?

Do not take a stance on doctrine for the New Covenant based on the Old Covenant, if the NC does not permit it.
Of course women can prophesy as it says in Acts, but they can not lead men, this is not the office of Prophet in the list beginning with Apostles for these women who have a prophesy from God.

Yes women can lead men. They can lead by example...as in the NT.

1. Acts 2:17
   And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Acts 21:9
   And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

[/QUOTE]

 

[Mink57]

What example in Scripture of the New Covenant has a woman having authority as in leadership over a man?
Head of a church, pastor, anything like that is non existant.
Scripture is our example, you will not find this.

You will find women teaching children and other women.

1. 1 Corinthians 14:34
   Let your women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 1 Corinthians 14:35
   And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home, for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

as you can see, many churches ignore this v34 and 35

"as also saith the LAW", interesting so the OC LAW Paul is using as justification, so right there is an example where the OC and NC are in agreement. He is arguing from the point of women generally being under authority of men, not ruling or leading men.

Philippians 4:3
And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women who labored with me in the Gospel, with Clement also and with my other fellow laborers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

These women who labored with Paul in the gospel, were the ministry of being a helper, not in a leadership position, so you just wont find a women apostle, and neither does Jesus appoint any women as apostles, although he had lots of women following as disciples and helpers.

May I remind you that MARY was the FIRST PERSON to show up at Christ's tomb.

My goodness... your arguments sound just like the arrogant apostles...

 

[theefaith]

A smart man would vote for a smart woman.

Name one!

women need to be wives and mothers and homeschool teachers to be happy and fulfill their God given role, the are few exceptions

 

[theefaith]

May I remind you that MARY was the FIRST PERSON to show up at Christ's tomb.

My goodness... your arguments sound just like the arrogant apostles...

was she looking for the risen Lord?

 

[JunChosen]

@Scott Downey and @theefaith

I believe Deborah had dual offices to perform {1} as a judge [ruler]. (2) as a prophetess [one who is sent or teaches].

According to the language of Judges 4:4, Deborah was definitely a judge, one who judged and governed. And, she was also a prophetess as the children of Israel came up to seek her for "judgment" ["advice" for spiritual matters?]. Note the word "judgment" in Judges 4:5 can also be translated as "advice".

Read the rest of Judges 4:6-9.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Scott Downey]

May I remind you that MARY was the FIRST PERSON to show up at Christ's tomb.

My goodness... your arguments sound just like the arrogant apostles...

arrogant apostles? I can see you dont think like the scriptures say.

 

[Naomanos]

name one!

Let's see. Women can now vote. Women are to be paid the same wage for doing the same job as a man. These are just two.

 

[Naomanos]

Name one!

women need to be wives and mothers and homeschool teachers to be happy and fulfill their God given role, the are few exceptions

There is nothing in the Bible that says a woman must stay barefoot and pregnant and at home, which is what your words above equate to.