Do Men Have Authority Over Women?

[stunnedbygrace]

But it would be very distracting if women went to church without any pants on.

(I can't wait to see what @quietthinker might do with THAT set-up line.)

Good to see you again, @stunnedbygrace.

Well, that’s why the torture device called pantyhose was invented.

 

[Lambano]

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon(ess) (διάκονον) of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. (Romans 16:1-2 NIV)

Paul sent his most important letter, the one that had tremendous influence on Augustine, Luther, Wesley, et.al. and on Protestantism today, this epistle he entrusted to a woman. Representing Paul himself, she would've circulated through the house churches of Rome, reading Paul's letter and taken Q-and-A afterwards.

They shouldn't have listened to a woman.

 

[reformed1689]

Exactly what it says: "Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy." NT ministry is for both men and women.

Oz

But not in the same capacities.

 

[reformed1689]

These days you first have to define what a woman is and we have a Supreme Court judge who can't do it

No government defines what a woman is, nor do people define what they are. Biology does. No such thing as "transgender" just really confused people.

 

[reformed1689]

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon(ess) (διάκονον) of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me. (Romans 16:1-2 NIV)

Paul sent his most important letter, the one that had tremendous influence on Augustine, Luther, Wesley, et.al. and on Protestantism today, this epistle he entrusted to a woman. Representing Paul himself, she would've circulated through the house churches of Rome, reading Paul's letter and taken Q-and-A afterwards.

They shouldn't have listened to a woman.

You read a lot into that passage that isn't stated.

 

[reformed1689]

That is not ALL women being in submission to ALL men.

I have no AUTHORITY over YOUR wife … she is to be under the authority of her husband.
It is a specific call for order and responsibility over what God has made us responsible for (the man over his household and the shepherd over God’s flock).

Yes, notice the specifics of my OP.

 

[reformed1689]

But what you need to do is see TO WHO those commands were given, and under what circumstances (Clue: Diana Artemis worship was matriarchal and the WOMEN, since they believed the Eve was created FIRST, and had the authority over Adam, and the Spiritual horsepower to boot). So naturally Paul didn't want the gentile church with these generational social beliefs tainted by the inclusion of pagan but socially acceptable doctrines.

You don't find female Muzzling in the Jerusalem Church - it's all in the Gentile churches that were Paul's wheelhouse.

Obviously Paul wasn't completely succesful, since we've got Pagan inclusion in Catholicism - Mariology, Purgatorial Sanctification, Salvation by Works, etc.

You wouldn't have females doing anything in a Jewish culture to begin with so your point isn't really a good one.

 

[reformed1689]

reformed,

Paul does not prohibit women in ministry in 1 Cor 14:26: "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up" (NIV).

It does not say "each of you except women has . . . a word of instruction"!

Oz

I did not say they were prohibited from ministry did I? No.

 

[Cassandra]

Well, he actually did, but just didn't expound on it. Plus he probably didn't answer them the way you wanted them to be answered. Appropriate roles for women in the church is an ongoing issue these days, so you shouldn't expect ~ and you probably don't; I'm just saying ~ anyone here to resolve them in this thread...


There are appropriate (Biblical) roles for women in the corporate church. Preaching and teaching are not.


I'm not speaking for R1689, but regarding corporate church activities, I'm quite sure this is not the case. I'm also quite sure that only men teach them. Most churches do have separate men's and women's ministries, and men lead the men's ministries, and women lead the women's ministries. And both are overseen by the overseeers ~ the Teaching and Ruling Elders, who, yes, are men.

Sure they do. And there are most certainly Biblically appropriate ways to use those gifts in the life of the church.


Well, I would take a bit of an issue with the "use them on" language you use here, regardless of gender. But teaching, no.


Sure.


In our church it's any age beyond elementary school.


Yes.


Well, it depends somewhat on what you mean by "input." But just generally speaking, sure they are, and many times even when not asked. I guess that gets into the "keeping silent" thing that Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians, but many go overboard with that.

Aside from all that, I think at least part of the problem is the term 'equality,' and what that means to certain folks. It does not mean 'sameness.' 'Equality' and 'sameness' are not synonyms.

.

Grace and peace to you, Cassandra.

As i understand it in the early church, the women sat separately from the men, and when hearing something they did not understand, they would holler over to their husband to ask what it meant.

I consider this forum an outreach ministry, and many times here women have given knowledge in their posts. Do you folks just not accept that or what? This is what i mean by input. the lady may have read something along the way that the men were not aware of, or looked at something in a different way, and offered it as food for thought.
and here is a counter part for your knight photo--I have no idea why you posted it, but here's one:

And if teaching or knowledge is given as a gift from the Spirit, well, does it remain useless if given to a woman?

Oh i see you guys are both reformed.
I'm not a Calvinist, so I'm not grace and peacing back at you. I Think that whole concept is elitist(it's whosoever believeth), but that is just me. I won't elaborate--I'll just keep silent.

 

[RLT63]

Paul prohibited women teaching men

1Co 11:5

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1Co 11:6

For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

Do they also have to have their head covered? I'm not disagreeing with you just saying you have to look at the whole picture. This verse says women prophesied. I assume they did that in Church. I don't think women should be pastors but they can serve in other capacities.

 

[Lambano]

Authority over men? Since when does anybody have authority over anyone else in Protestant churches? In my denomination, the pastor is an employee of the church. The only thing she has authority over is what happens in the Sanctuary between 11:00 and 12:00 Sunday morning. If I don't like her, I can bend the ear of some folks on the Staff-Parish Committee, who can tell the Conference to send us somebody else next July. My understanding is that many other Protestant denominations can simply fire their pastors. I hear the Catholic hierarchy is different; perhaps everyone would prefer that polity?

 

[Lambano]

As for women teaching men... Whether I'm listening to a formal sermon, participating in a group Bible study, or on a forum like this one, I'm not interested in anyone's genitalia or whether or not they have boobs. I'm more interested in whether they have wisdom and knowledge to impart.

 

[PinSeeker]

As i understand it in the early church, the women sat separately from the men, and when hearing something they did not understand, they would holler over to their husband to ask what it meant.

Well, yes, in that day, for instance, a woman's testimony in court was considered meaningless. That's just the way society was in those days. The Bible says nothing about whether that was good or bad. But on a better understanding of the Bible, we can see that that was not good. Yes, Paul says in Ephesians 5 that women should submit to their husband in everything, but many people ~ including you, apparently ~ misunderstand what Biblical submission is; it is absolutely not subservience. And right after this admonition to wives, Paul lays a far, far more burdening responsibility on husbands: to lay down their lives for their wives, just as Christ did the church. Interesting, too, though, one would think, that women are revered throughout the Bible. There are several women mentioned among the "heroes of faith" in Hebrews 11 (which was probably written by Paul). And you might note that the first word of Jesus's having risen was that of women.

As I said before, women were always, Biblically speaking, equal to men. And from the very beginning; in Genesis 1, Moses writes that God created man, male and female. One should easily see equality in that. But again, equality does not mean the same thing as sameness.

Again, I'll say that the Biblical meaning of submission and authority is far different and far deeper than what many think.

I consider this forum an outreach ministry, and many times here women have given knowledge in their posts.

Sure, and I value their input equally with that of men. It's kind of ridiculous not to.

...and here is a counter part for your knight photo--I have no idea why you posted it, but here's one...

I didn't post any knight photo.

And if teaching or knowledge is given as a gift from the Spirit, well, does it remain useless if given to a woman?

I think I answered this question before; no. If God gives one this spiritual gift, he or she is to use it for the common good, as Paul says in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12. But there are appropriate places in the church for one to put those gifts into action, and this is according to God's prescription, not mine, or that of any other.

...I'm not grace and peacing back at you. I think that whole concept is elitist...

LOL! Certainly not, and quite the opposite. But okay, Cassandra, suit yourself. That's... puzzling...

(it's whosoever believeth)...

Ah, 'whosoever.' That comes from Joel, by the way; both John and Paul are drawing from his words in chapter 2 of his prophecy. The 'whosoever' includes only those whom God calls, and He does not call everyone. That's a whole 'nother subject, though, right?

I won't elaborate--I'll just keep silent.

Like I said, suit yourself. But I would be glad to have any conversation with you, and would welcome your input and respect your words and thoughts with every fiber of my soul.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

“If your church has a female pastor, then you have no church and no pastor.” - john macarthur.

 

[praise_yeshua]

To put it simply, if you follow Scripture, yes.

Wives are to submit to husbands.
Women are not to have authority over men in the church.
Women are to remain quiet in the church (yes that means women pastors is wholly against Scripture).

Selective nonsense.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well Christian men are still human and sometime they abuse their position, just like Christian women sometime abuse their position! Being a certified counselor, most marriage problems I have encountered are simply because men are abusing the authority and women rebel or women do not want to be ruled over!

My best advice I give couples is to practice Ephesians 5:22-33 without hesitation and without any caveats and come back in a month and we will talk! It is amazing how much turmoil ends when believers obey the very simple to understand instructions in the bible!

I didn't see any verses about Husband abusing their authority.

How is their "authority" remaining when they ask you to intervene? What authority do YOU have?

I have an answer..... ZERO.

 

[praise_yeshua]

“If your church has a female pastor, then you have no church and no pastor.” - john macarthur.

Pot/Kettle.

 

[marks]

If the majority of women obeyed this one instruction the world would be a better place.

That's the thing . . . this instruction is for the wife. Men seem to have fallen in love with the idea!

Much love!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

That's the thing . . . this instruction is for the wife. Men seem to have fallen in love with the idea!

Much love!

So have you fallen into hate with the idea?

I love the doctrine that comes from an all knowing God.

You’d be wise to do so as well…

 

[marks]

Agreed. But this is not a thread about that authority being abused or potentially abused. This is in direct response to women who say men do not have authority over them.

Who have you been given authority over? What part of the Bible gives you the right to give others orders that must be followed?

The wife is commanded to submit. Where is the husband granted authority?

Isn't this just, God tells the woman to submit to the husband, as the husband licks his chops? That's how your posts strike me.

Much love!