Do you accept this a Biblical fact or fiction?:

[tigger 2]

An alternate to the interpretation of John 20:28 by the WTS:

To understand what may have been intended by Thomas, let’s first examine it as if the words were not directly applied to Jesus.

Notice the parallel between 1 Samuel 20:12 (where Jonathan’s words appear to be directed to David: “... Jonathan saith unto David, ‘Jehovah, God of Israel - when I search my father, about this time tomorrow ....’” - Young’s Literal Translation, cf. KJV) and John 20:28 (where Thomas’ words appear to be directed to Jesus: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”).

The significant point here is that, although the scripture shows Jonathan speaking to David, it apparently literally calls him (David) “O LORD God of Israel”!! (For a straightforward literal translation see 1 Samuel 20:12 in the King James Version.) You can bet that, if modern Bible translators wanted to find “evidence” that made King David also appear to be equally God (Quadrinarians?), they would continue to translate this scripture addressed to David just as literally as they do John 20:28 to “prove” that Jesus is equally God!

Instead, we see many modern translations adding words to bring out what they believe may have been originally intended. There is absolutely no reason for this addition except the translators believe from the testimony of the rest of the Bible that David is not Jehovah God. So something else must have been intended here.

This may be similar to the abbreviated doxology at Ro. 9:5 which some trinitarians also take advantage of. That doxology is also without a critical verb and is abruptly joined to a description of Jesus. Literally, in Greek it reads: “the being over all god blessed into the ages amen.”

Even some trinitarian translators add the necessary words and punctuation to make this a clearly separated doxology to the Father: “[Jesus was born a Jew]. May God, who rules over all, be praised for ever” - GNB. (CEV: ‘I pray that God, who rules over all, will be praised forever! Amen.’ RSV: ‘God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.’ TLB: 'Praise God forever!' NABRE: 'God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.' NIVSB, fn.: 'God be forever praised' or, 'God who is over all be forever praised!' NLV: 'May God be honored and thanked forever. Let it be so.' RSV: 'God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.' NEB: 'May God, supreme above all, be blessed forever!')

If so many trinitarian translators can admit this possibility for Ro. 9:5, it is not unreasonable to apply the same interpretation to John 20:28.

A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament tells us of the tendency toward abbreviation of frequent or customary phraseology in NT Greek, p. 149.

 

[David in NJ]

An alternate to the interpretation of John 20:28 by the WTS:

To understand what may have been intended by Thomas, let’s first examine it as if the words were not directly applied to Jesus.

Notice the parallel between 1 Samuel 20:12 (where Jonathan’s words appear to be directed to David: “... Jonathan saith unto David, ‘Jehovah, God of Israel - when I search my father, about this time tomorrow ....’” - Young’s Literal Translation, cf. KJV) and John 20:28 (where Thomas’ words appear to be directed to Jesus: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”).

The significant point here is that, although the scripture shows Jonathan speaking to David, it apparently literally calls him (David) “O LORD God of Israel”!! (For a straightforward literal translation see 1 Samuel 20:12 in the King James Version.) You can bet that, if modern Bible translators wanted to find “evidence” that made King David also appear to be equally God (Quadrinarians?), they would continue to translate this scripture addressed to David just as literally as they do John 20:28 to “prove” that Jesus is equally God!

Instead, we see many modern translations adding words to bring out what they believe may have been originally intended. There is absolutely no reason for this addition except the translators believe from the testimony of the rest of the Bible that David is not Jehovah God. So something else must have been intended here.

This may be similar to the abbreviated doxology at Ro. 9:5 which some trinitarians also take advantage of. That doxology is also without a critical verb and is abruptly joined to a description of Jesus. Literally, in Greek it reads: “the being over all god blessed into the ages amen.”

Even some trinitarian translators add the necessary words and punctuation to make this a clearly separated doxology to the Father: “[Jesus was born a Jew]. May God, who rules over all, be praised for ever” - GNB. (CEV: ‘I pray that God, who rules over all, will be praised forever! Amen.’ RSV: ‘God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.’ TLB: 'Praise God forever!' NABRE: 'God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.' NIVSB, fn.: 'God be forever praised' or, 'God who is over all be forever praised!' NLV: 'May God be honored and thanked forever. Let it be so.' RSV: 'God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.' NEB: 'May God, supreme above all, be blessed forever!')

If so many trinitarian translators can admit this possibility for Ro. 9:5, it is not unreasonable to apply the same interpretation to John 20:28.

A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament tells us of the tendency toward abbreviation of frequent or customary phraseology in NT Greek, p. 149.

You said: Instead, we see many modern translations adding words to bring out what they believe may have been originally intended. There is absolutely no reason for this addition except the translators believe from the testimony of the rest of the Bible that David is not Jehovah God. So something else must have been intended here.

This is exactly why they 'helped' scripture - i firmly believe that what Samuel said was correct.
Not by making David equal with God but confirming Jesus is 'echad' with the Father.
Samuel was making a Prophetic statement of truth that applied to David becuase of his position and the anointing upon him, which was a foreshadow of MESSIAH - IMMANUEL - GOD with us........

 

[Robert Gwin]

So you are saying none of the disciples/apostles or scripture referred to Jesus as God, is that correct ? yes or no

Yes, that is correct Chris

 

[Robert Gwin]

You take the SAME position as those who wanted to kill Jesus - You reject Christ, He is Jehovah, He is the IAM who spoke to Moses.
You reject John chapters 5 and 8
You corrupt and change Scripture to declare your error.

the teachings of jehovah witnesses is falsehood and error - there is only One Witness

“It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God. Isaiah 43

Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

You do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in you.............you are not the Lord's true witnesses.

Why is it none of you have an answer to my question?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Please see below.

Christianity Board Statement of Faith

The below clearly outlines the core, closed-handed, and Christian orthodox issues that we expect members of Christianity Board to uphold. We accept that this declaration essentially defines Christianity for Christianity Board. Disagreement with the below, we believe, places one outside the realm of reasonable orthodox Christianity.

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why do we keep allowing attacks on the Deity of Christ?

John 14:28; 1 Cor 11:3 Not equal even after his return to heaven. Bible does not contradict sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Do you know what LIFE is?
The physical and spiritual source of life is God. Life also means spiritual redemption and resurrection
Jesus said I am the LIFE.

Do you know what TRUTH means?
Aside frim what is righteous, truth means what is real, reality. So if someone claims they are the truth, they claim they are reality. Now if JWs claim that Jesus was created, that means righteousness and spirutual reality did not exist before Jesus.
We are in Christ, in eternity, in truth (spiritual reality, realm, being). He was in the beginning.

Do you know what LOGOS means?
In John 1:1, Logos (word) is the "divine reason", the "exact expression" and "power", the "spiritual essence" (substance) and "glory of God", in mind, will, emotion and character. Jesus is not like, or similar to God. He is God, who came in the flesh a dwelt among us. Rev. 19:13, 16 describes Jesus as the Word of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

Do you know who the CREATOR is?
"for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities - all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things and in Him all things hold together."
Col. 1:16, 17
So, He did not create Himself, He is an eternal being. The FATHER begot the Son (the human being, the baby Jesus - NOT HIS spiritual being that pre-existed with the Father). "The Word was with God." "The Word became flesh."
In Him, all things consist. That means every atom in the universe and life itself, visible and invisible.

Do you know what LIGHT is?
Revelation, inspiration and radiance to man is actually His divine presence. Jesus is the Light of men.

Do you known what AUTHORITY means and what it requires?
The Bible as a written book contains the message of God to man. It has power to transform because it comes from a supernatural source, the causal force, the Author of Life and everything. Having authority in heaven and earth requires omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence.

1 That is an excellent question. For man and animals it is the time period of their conscious existence. I guess for vegetation it would be their total growth period.
2 Truth is fact
3 Logos in English is Word. Jn 1:1 referred to Jesus as the Logos, or in other words God's spokesman
4 Creator is the designer of something that exists
5 Biblical light is understanding
6 Authority is responsibility for something, an example would be Jesus Mat 28:18 He is responsible to rectify all things back to God

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes, that is correct Chris

Then your approach to reading and studying the Bible is with a bias. That tells me you are closed to the Holy Spirits leading you into all truth. Since numerous places in the Old and New Testament refer to the Son as God you are closed - minded. No one can convince you otherwise and the Son must remove the salve from your eyes so you can see the Glory that is hidden in Christ. Right now your mind/heart is veiled to the Person of Christ. See 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

I could post 50 passages declaring the Sons Deity and you would reject everyone of them because you have already concluded that the Son cannot be God which is a false premise. Scripture must determine ones beliefs and not impose your ideas upon the text. The text must determine truth.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

1 That is an excellent question. For man and animals it is the time period of their conscious existence. I guess for vegetation it would be their total growth period.
2 Truth is fact
3 Logos in English is Word. Jn 1:1 referred to Jesus as the Logos, or in other words God's spokesman
4 Creator is the designer of something that exists
5 Biblical light is understanding
6 Authority is responsibility for something, an example would be Jesus Mat 28:18 He is responsible to rectify all things back to God

1. The causal spark of existence, if you will, life, a supernatural substance comes from somewhere. It does not exist on its own. Jesus said I am the LIFE. He is the substance that creates and brings into being ALL things, invisible and visible.
2 & 3. Truth is fact. But where do facts come from? LOGOS. JESUS said, I am the truth. Truth is aThe expression of an All Mighty God. Facts don't exist on their own, they are part of a design, from a Designer.
4. It is interesting that you acknowledge what a creator is but you refuse to acknowledge that Jesus is the Creator as clearly stated in Col.1:16, John 1:1 and the entire book of John that reveals the deity of Christ. All the "I am's" describe who He is. Only God can make those claims.
6. Again you acknowledge what LIGHT is, but resist Who LIGHT is.

It is this constant reality (truth) thay you keep resisting, avoiding, bumping up against and discarding, the true nature of Christ.
You obey Him, that's good.
You worship the Father, that's good, but I find it hard to believe that you truely worship Christ as your God, because you think He is an angel.
And you naturally don't worship angels because we are not supposed to. In any instance in scripture where man bows down to an angel, He quickly rebukes him and says don't do that.
That is your obstacle, the lie that Jesus is Michael.
When you finally reach heaven/paradise, Jesus will greet you and introduce you to Michael.

 

[David in NJ]

Why is it none of you have an answer to my question?

lol x 100
Why is it you do not believe the Word that was God in the beginning? - this same Word became flesh and we beheld His Glory, Full of Grace and TRUTH = the only begotten Son of God.

 

[marks]

John 14:28; 1 Cor 11:3 Not equal even after his return to heaven. Bible does not contradict sir.

This topic is not allowed according to the board rules.

 

[David in NJ]

This topic is not allowed according to the board rules.

Let him be - it is an opportunity to share the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Just be swift to show the TRUTH from the WORD.

 

[David in NJ]

An alternate to the interpretation of John 20:28 by the WTS:

To understand what may have been intended by Thomas, let’s first examine it as if the words were not directly applied to Jesus.

Notice the parallel between 1 Samuel 20:12 (where Jonathan’s words appear to be directed to David: “... Jonathan saith unto David, ‘Jehovah, God of Israel - when I search my father, about this time tomorrow ....’” - Young’s Literal Translation, cf. KJV) and John 20:28 (where Thomas’ words appear to be directed to Jesus: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”).

The significant point here is that, although the scripture shows Jonathan speaking to David, it apparently literally calls him (David) “O LORD God of Israel”!! (For a straightforward literal translation see 1 Samuel 20:12 in the King James Version.) You can bet that, if modern Bible translators wanted to find “evidence” that made King David also appear to be equally God (Quadrinarians?), they would continue to translate this scripture addressed to David just as literally as they do John 20:28 to “prove” that Jesus is equally God!

Instead, we see many modern translations adding words to bring out what they believe may have been originally intended. There is absolutely no reason for this addition except the translators believe from the testimony of the rest of the Bible that David is not Jehovah God. So something else must have been intended here.

This is exactly why they 'helped' scripture - i firmly believe that what Samuel said was correct.
Not by making David equal with God but confirming the Lord Jesus Christ is 'echad' with the Father.
Samuel was making a Prophetic statement of truth that applied to David becuase of his position and the anointing upon him, which was a foreshadow of MESSIAH - IMMANUEL - GOD with us........

 

[marks]

Let him be - it is an opportunity to share the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Just be swift to show the TRUTH from the WORD.

An honest person would withdraw.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

An honest person would withdraw.

Much love!

In his religion, he is being honest. How can he know the Truth of the Gospel of John if he is not referencing the True Gospel?

It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.…

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Enoch111]

(Jeremiah 10:10) . . .Jehovah is truly God. He is the living God . . .Concerning Jesus: (Matthew 16:16) . . .“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Both are true, but you omitted two other critical truths found in the Bible: (1) Jesus is God and (2) God is the triune Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

In his religion, he is being honest. How can he know the Truth of the Gospel of John if he is not referencing the True Gospel?

It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.…

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

The honesty I'm referring to is to join a forum that requires agreement to a belief you do not agree with.

Much love!

 

[marks]

John 14:28; 1 Cor 11:3 Not equal even after his return to heaven. Bible does not contradict sir.

You ignored what I said.

Why do you reply, but ignore what I said?

Again.

 

[David in NJ]

Both are true, but you omitted two other critical truths found in the Bible: (1) Jesus is God and (2) God is the triune Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” God also told Moses,
“Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.
Exodus 3:14-15

Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit

 

[tigger 2]

I Am

Ex. 3:15
"Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel I AM [ehyeh] hath sent me unto you. 15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah [YHWH], the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” - ASV (compare Ex. 3:15 in JB; LB; Darby; NEB; ERV; HCSB; LEB; NLT; WEB; and YLT.)

First, we need to note that the original manuscripts (and all copies for many hundreds of years thereafter) had no punctuation and no capitalization (for both Old Testament Hebrew and New Testament Greek). So the only reason “I AM” is capitalized in modern Bibles is that many modern translators believe it should be considered a title or name for God.

The two main points to be made about Exodus 3:14 in the ancient Hebrew manuscripts are: (1) the word sometimes translated “I AM” in English is not the name of God but merely an explanation of the meaning of his only personal name (“Jehovah” - English form; “Yahweh” - possible Hebrew form), and (2) translating that Hebrew word (ehyeh) as “I Am” is almost certainly incorrect.

You can see the truth of point #1 by carefully examining Ex. 3:13-15. Especially when you see a translation that honestly translates God’s name in Ex. 3:15 as “Yahweh” or “Jehovah” (not “LORD”). Notice where God used the word “name” in Ex. 3:15 and what it refers to. (Compare Ps. 83:16, 18 - “fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD [mistranslation of “Jehovah” - see ASV] .... That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.” - King James Version.)

It is very clear that although YHWH (Jehovah) is used many thousands of times as God’s personal name throughout the OT by God Himself and His followers, the word ehyeh is used only once (Ex.3:14) for God.

“Nevertheless, Exod. 3 does not appear to give a new name for the first time but the explanation of a name known already but now identified as the saving God of Israel....” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, p. 69, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986.

In its commentary to Exodus 3:14, the JPS Tanakh, Jewish Study Bible, Oxford Edition states:
"God's proper name disclosed in the next verse is YHVH (spelled yod-heh-vav-heh. In Heb., in ancient times, the "vav" was pronounced "w"). But here God first tells Moses its meaning; ehyeh-asher-ehyeh, probably best translated as "I will be what I will be" meaning: "My nature will become evident from my actions."

“The name of God
“Israel’s ancestors knew God as ‘the LORD’, Yahweh (or Jehovah) (Genesis 2:4; Gen 12:1; Gen 26:2; Gen 28:21; Gen 49:18), but the name meant little to the Israelites of Moses’ time. God’s revelation to Moses in the ‘I am’ statement of Exodus 3:14 was an explanation of what the name Yahweh should have meant to God’s people.” - Bridgeway Bible Commentary.

“God had made Himself known to Abraham as Jehovah (Genesis 15:7). But here [Ex. 3:14] He gives the explanation of His name Jehovah. The patriarchs knew the name Jehovah, but the blessed significance of that name was not known to them.” - Arno Gaebelein's Annotated Bible.

A further difficulty for this trinitarian “proof” comes from the high probability that ehyeh is mistranslated as “I am.” ). I first suspected this when I saw how ehyeh was translated at Ex. 3:14 in the following Bibles: Moffatt’s translation - “I WILL BE”; Byington’s - “I WILL BE”; Rotherham’s - “I WILL BECOME”; Concordant Literal Version - “I-SHALL-COME-TO-BE”; Julia Smith’s - “I SHALL BE”; Leeser’s - “I WILL BE”; New World Translation - “I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”

In addition were the following alternate readings in footnotes: American Standard Version - “I WILL BE”; NIV Study Bible - “I WILL BE”; Revised Standard Version - “I WILL BE”; New Revised Standard Version - “I WILL BE”; New English Bible - “I WILL BE”; Revised English Bible - “I WILL BE”; Living Bible - “I WILL BE”; Good News Bible - “I WILL BE”; English Standard Version - "I WILL BE" .

In contrast to the paucity of real evidence for an “I am” interpretation of ehyeh you will find that all of the books of Moses (the Pentateuch), including Exodus, of course, and the book of Joshua always use ehyeh to mean “I will be." A Hebrew interlinear will back this up.

2 Samuel 7:14 in the OT is quoted in the New Testament Greek scriptures at Hebrews 1:5. Notice that when ehyeh (2 Sam. 7:14) was translated into the NT Greek by the inspired Bible writer at Heb. 1:5, he didn’t write ego eimi (“I am”) but ego esomai (“I will be”)! (Esomai is also used at 2 Sam. 7:14 in the Septuagint, the ancient Greek OT,)

Ezekiel 11:20 is also quoted in the NT at Heb. 8:10. Ehyeh in Ezekiel 11:20 is translated as "I will be," of course, and the quoting of this word by the inspired NT writer in Heb. 8:10 is esomai ("I will be") not ego eimi (“I am”). (Ego esomai is used at Ezek. 11:20 in the Septuagint also.)

For my full study of this see:
Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 3

And,

Examining the Trinity: "I AM" - Part 1 for John 8:58

 

[Ronald Nolette]

(Jeremiah 10:10) . . .Jehovah is truly God. He is the living God . . .

Concerning Jesus:
(Matthew 16:16) . . .“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Yep