Do you accept this a Biblical fact or fiction?:

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marks

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At Genesis 19:12 it does say that the angels said that God had sent them to destroy the city. Is that a lie?
Let me check the passage . . .

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

It looks like that's actually in vs. 13, but you're right, they did say that.

They said they were sent to destroy the city, and instead of destroying it, they rescued from it Lot and his family. And then God Himself destroyed it.

What do you make of that?

It sounds to me like an act of grace. What are your thoughts?

Much love!
 

marks

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The word we doesn't necessarily mean that there had to be two other persons that YHWH was talking to when he said, let us make man in our image. It's very reasonable that YHWH was talking to his Only Begotten Son, when he said that.
You are my son, this day I have begotten you. What day was that?

Much love!
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Let me check the passage . . .

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

It looks like that's actually in vs. 13, but you're right, they did say that.

They said they were sent to destroy the city, and instead of destroying it, they rescued from it Lot and his family. And then God Himself destroyed it.

What do you make of that?

It sounds to me like an act of grace. What are your thoughts?

Much love!

Well the angels did save Lot and this two daughters, so scripture shows us that God does use Angels. Daniel 6:22; Acts 12:6-11; Mark 1:13; Luke 22:43. The point is God will use creation to save creation. Let's take what happened during Moses day, it was God doing all those things during Moses day, just because God used Moses doesn't mean it wasn't God doing all that was going on.
Let's take the Bible itself, we have all these men that God used when he inspired them to pen his words. Now people will say things like, Peter said this at so and so or Paul or Matthew but it was God saying all that when he used such men. So it wasn't Peter word or Paul word or Matthew but it's God word. So God has always used his creation to save creation.
One part of creation was at risk of being lost when Adam sinned so God used another part of creation(Angels) to help save the part of creation(mankind) that was at risk of being lost.
Ever since God has brought creation into existence he has always used creation to help creation. It doesn't mean it wasn't God doing the work, whether it was destroying wickedness or sending a man with his word it was still God doing it.
 

ChristisGod

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#3 2 Peter 1:1

The very same objections to Titus 2:13 apply to 2 Peter 1:1, another Sharp’s ‘proof.’

The Roman Catholic scholar, Karl Rahner, commenting on 2 Peter 1:1, says that ‘God’ “here is clearly separated from ‘Christ’.” - Theological Investigations, Karl Rahner, pp. 136, 137, Vol.1, 3rd printing: 1965.

Famed British NT scholar and trinitarian clergyman Henry Alford wrote: "I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle's [Paul's] way of writing." - The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3. And,

“I have fully discussed the question in the note on [Titus 2:13], to which I would refer the reader as my justification for interpreting here [2 Peter 1:1], as there, [‘the god of us’] of the Father, and [‘savior jesus christ’] of the Son.” - p. 390, Vol. 4.

(Weymouth NT) 2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ."

Another Sharp’s construction which even the KJV ignores as a trinity proof immediately follows 2 Peter 1:1:

2 Peter 1:2 “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord” -KJV.

Here are some of the trinitarian translations which follow the above KJV example for 2 Peter 1:2: ASV; AMP; BRG; CSB; Darby; DRA; EHV; ESV; GNV; GNT; HCSB; ISV; JUB; KJ21; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB; NASB; NCB; NET; NIV; NKJV; NMB; NRSV; NTE; RGT; RSV; TLV; TPT; VOICE; WEB; YLT.

If 2 Peter 2:2, although one of Sharp’s constructions as clearly as 2 Peter 1:1 is, can be rendered so frequently by trinitarian translators themselves as a 2-person statement - So can other Sharp’s Constructions!
I see you are unable to do your own studies and rely on outside and secondary sources. The fallacy in known as the "appeal to authority "

In the Greek it’s the EXACT same construction in 2 Peter 1:1 and 1:11. So either Jesus is Lord and Savior/ God and Savior or He is neither one so that’s your actual choice . That’s what the plain reading of the text is period. You are reading your BIAS into 2 Peter1:1 because it goes against your beliefs . That’s what is really going on here with your eisegesis.

Peter refers to Christ as our God and Saviour- Lord and Saviour just the same as Paul in Titus 2:13 and it’s the same Greek construction in Titus 2:13 as it is in 2 Peter 1:1 and 1:11.

2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

It’s time for you to wake up to that fact. It’s impossible for you to read it any other way because of your doctrine( Jesus is not God) and reading your BIAS into every passage in the NT that calls the Son, God.

And the One who is coming / appearing in the NT is always the Son and NEVER the Father.

This is a trinitarian slam dunk !

epiphanea

2 Thes 2:8
8
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Tim 6:14
14
that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Tim 1:10
10
but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,

2 Tim 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Tim 4:8
8
in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 2:13
13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,




Parousia


Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matt 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matt 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matt 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Cor 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thess 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thess 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thess 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

And 2 Thes 2:8 links both His appearing / coming as the same event of Christ not the Father. Both epiphenea and parousia together below in the same verse.

2 Thes 2:8
8
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Peter 1:7
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


Case closed for the Unitarian camp !

This is where Unitarians really fail badly because they are so consumed with disproving the Deity of Christ that they fail with a well rounded theology which would benefit them greatly . You see how all biblical doctrines fit together seamlessly and especially in this case prove beyond all doubt that the one and only Person Paul was referring to in Titus 2:13 as God was Jesus and not the Father for He is never once in Scripture referred to as the One who is Coming/ Appearing .

hope this helps !!!
 

Wrangler

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Interesting that you can glibly overlook "a couple of vague" verses. It doesn't really seem that you give the same credit as you do the singular.

That’s right! 10,000 singular is not as much as a couple of plural. Explicit is not the same as vague.

I provided multiple valid interpretations other than the trinitarian False Alternative. This verse has been on my mind lately.

1 Corinthians 15:27
The Voice

27 All this will happen to fulfill the Scripture that says, “You placed everything on earth beneath His feet.” (Although it says “everything,” it is clear that this does not also pertain to God, who created everything and made it all subject to Him.)
 

Robert Gwin

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If you not Saved now, before death, you will not experience Salvation later on in the millennial reign

Many things people say David is not scriptural. The Bible is quite clear that you can be in a saved condition, but saved is simply short for salvation. What I said is correct, not even the 144k is at this time saved, at any time they can turn away from serving God, therefore Jesus was quite accurate when he clearly stated "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved".
 
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Robert Gwin

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God has always had a Way for people to approach Him. For some at times it could be through this forum.

Give God the glory!

No sir, only one way to approach Jehovah and that is through Jesus in prayer. What can be accomplished by this forum however, is that someone may see the seeds of truth and those truths start to grow in their heart.
 

Robert Gwin

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What do you think about the interpretation of Emmanuel in Matthew 1:23?

That is easy maam, as it is interpreted for us, it means God is with us. What is lacking in understanding however is the how is He with us. John 3:16 provides the answer.
 

David in NJ

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Just go on making anti-Scriptural claims.
never have - post it
Many things people say David is not scriptural. The Bible is quite clear that you can be in a saved condition, but saved is simply short for salvation. What I said is correct, not even the 144k is at this time saved, at any time they can turn away from serving God, therefore Jesus was quite accurate when he clearly stated "he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved".

I know about the 144,000 and what it's meaning is according to Scripture - Jesus encoded Revelation that can only be decoded by the entirety of Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

This is how you endure to the end - He who began a Good Work in you shall complete it to the End.

being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ Phil 1:6

NOT of works less anyone should boast = false teachings of Watchtower
 

amadeus

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No sir, only one way to approach Jehovah and that is through Jesus in prayer. What can be accomplished by this forum however, is that someone may see the seeds of truth and those truths start to grow in their heart.
Why did you start out with the words, 'no sir', and then effectively go on to agree with the essence of my statement?
 

Robert Gwin

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Being born again is for all who wish to even see teh kingdom. the Watchtower mess of saying only 144,000 can be bvorn again is foolishness and a false doctrine.

Satan is the fourth most powerful being in the universe, after the Father, son and Holy spirit. We must repect his power and that He knows Scripture far better than us, but of course to twist and malign it.

Salvation happens in this life. If one dies unsaved, they are lost forever. YOu need to read a bible apart from watchtower material. Even though they subtly say different, Watchtower material is not the Word of God, the bible is.

It is very hard for those who die in this system to be lost forever sir. The only ones who have no forgiveness is those whom Jesus said sins against the holy spirit. We understand that to mean someone who knows God well and works against His purposes, like Judas for example, or Adam would qualify as well. satan of course is the prime example. Very few will get this judgment however as very few actually know God intimately. Heck most who are here think Jesus is God as an example.
 

Robert Gwin

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No christian i know is opposed to God Jehovah


Every knee shall bow and confess Jesus Christ as Lord, as Creator and as the Savior for there is no other Name by which we MUST be saved.

Repent and believe and worship the SON, for without worship of the SON you will never be received by the Father.

Don't lose out by overlooking the entire chain of command David.
 

Robert Gwin

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So you pretend to not know what I'm saying? Very mature!

Much love!

What I am saying is that I am posting my posts in Bible study forum. That means that if it is in the Bible, it is acceptable to post. You may or may not agree with this, it is your choice. I will say again, I appreciate this site, as it is one of the few, if not the only one who claims to be a Christian site that allows one to actually post what the Bible really teaches. Be very thankful for that sir, and stop making insinuations so that you too will have open access for stating your opinions. By making accusatory posts you may very well get restrictions imposed that may not only affect others but yourself as well.

Keep in mind God allows people at this time to serve the God they choose to serve, so like the song says, if you don't give a heck about the man with the Bible in his hand, then get out the way and let the gentleman do his thing. Savvy?
 

David in NJ

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Don't lose out by overlooking the entire chain of command David.

Here is the Name of God for ALL Eternity

Then Moses asked God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is His name?’ What should I tell them?” God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” God (Elohim) also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the Elohim of your fathers—the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit = this is His Name FOREVER

If you reject this commandment from the Jehovah, then you will not be able to fully comprehend the Scripture in it's FULLNESS.

No worry, Jehovah made it simple for those He draws unto Himself.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jehovah came to earth and became flesh - the only begotten of the Father.

I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; -
Isaiah 42

You are My witnesses,” says the Jehovah -
Isaiah 43

And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”


You are My witnesses,” says the Jehovah/Jesus - Isaiah 43 SAME as Acts 1

I Jehovah will have no gods before Me...........
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Let me check the passage . . .

13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.

It looks like that's actually in vs. 13, but you're right, they did say that.

They said they were sent to destroy the city, and instead of destroying it, they rescued from it Lot and his family. And then God Himself destroyed it.

What do you make of that?

It sounds to me like an act of grace. What are your thoughts?

Much love!

Well the angels did save Lot and this two daughters, so scripture shows us that God does use Angels. Daniel 6:22; Acts 12:6-11; Mark 1:13; Luke 22:43. The point is God will use creation to save creation. God used people like Abraham, Moses, Daniel, and Isaiah, to name a few. So while God uses men and Angels it's actually who's doing all this saving.
In regard to the Bible, we have all these men that God used when he inspired them to pen his words. Now people will say things like, Peter said this at so and so or Paul or Matthew but it was actually God doing all the talking when he used such men. So it wasn't Peters word or Pauls word or Matthews, it's God word. So God has always used his creation to help save a part of his creation, mankind.
The point is it's easy to believe that God works through someone. When God was leading his people to the promised land the scriptures at Exodus 23:20, 21 show he used an Angel to do that, "Here I am sending an angel ahead of you to keep you on the road and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. Watch yourself because of him and obey his voice. Do not behave rebelliously against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; because my name is within him.”
 

Ronald Nolette

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.................................

This is one of my own studies as I said. The first one concerning John 1:1c alone is my 50+ page DEF study. I have personally read the source of every quote in it. (It took so long to finish because of the intense work required pre-computer and for me to purchase - on a teacher's salary - or look up in various public libraries all the publications cited).

The "anarthrous argument" is "old and tired" because trinitarians have kept trying to find new ways to justify it. But it is the main point of the argument.

Perhaps your "compound phrase" is actually some form of Sharp's Rule which is dubious at the very best. My study of Sharp's Rule shows many flaws in it. At any rate John 1:1c is not a "compound phrase." It's not a phrase at all! It's a clause, in fact it's a predicate noun clause!

The only cut and paste I have done is from my own files of my own studies.

Try actually reading them carefully.


Well it is a compound sentence (not phrase and John 1c is but a part of it. )

Anarthrous nouns when describing quality do not appear with an indefinite article and God is a quality describing the Word! the rules governng anarthrous nouns are general rules and not all-encompassing rules. there are many many examples where an anrthrous noun appears without a definite artile. JOhn 1:1 is a classic example.

And no the c part of this compound sentence is not part of sharps rule.

Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Study Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1995
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NASB 1977
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Amplified Bible
In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Good News Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Literal Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

NET Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

New Heart English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.

Lamsa Bible
THE Word was in the beginning, and that very Word was with God, and God was that Word.

Anderson New Testament
IN the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD, was with God, and the WORD was God.

Godbey New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Haweis New Testament
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Mace New Testament
In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.

Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Worrell New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Worsley New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I assume that all the greek experts involved in all these translations were somehow mesmerized or so indoctriniated they tossed out standard rules for translating?

But to repose the statement. Jesus is definitely called god (or a god for your behalf). So if there is only 1 true God and Jesus is not that god- then He is not a true but false god.
 
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