Do you believe in Hell ?

[Madad21]

Madad,

Am I to take from this your acknowledgement that this parable "may not" be taken as literal in the sense in which you believe it to be. That its a possibilty?

No what you so arrogantly took from it was that I was calling Jesus a lair

You have assumed I am playing mind games but this is not my intention. You have asked for my understanding on this parable and I am seeking a common ground - a basis of reasoning the matter out together.

Thanks for all of a sudden getting my name right,
How about not trying to seek common ground and simply telling me your take on the question I posed, how hard is that?
Here it is again in case you forgot "Why does Jesus make highlight of the fact that the rich man is in agony and in torment?"

You have nothing to lose "entertain me" if need be. I am not asking you to change your beliefs!!!
Are you finished stroking your ego, are you going to get back to the topic now?

 

[Bronzesnake]

You may know this but by the 1800's most eductated persons had abandoned the concept of the devil and hell and that efforts to overcome such knowledge had failed.

You may like to read Henson "Historical and Theological Perspectives on Satan" written in 1992; a work which is still referenced by many theologians today.

Modern scholarship has made tremendous inroads into this subject, so by the 1900's we find these teachings being openly questioned all around the world. Mcloed wrote a book called "The third last thing: the binding of satan" written in 1999.

While I apprecaite some Christians hold onto these medievil doctrines; often styled orthodox, the vast majority of (1) Christians in the U.S today no longer acknowledge a literal hell or devil. The advancement in understanding Hebrew and Greek langauge has also contributed to an enlightenment concerning these subjects.

Hope this helps.

(1) https://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/12-faithspirituality/260-most-american-christians-do-not-believe-that-satan-or-the-holy-spirit-exis#.U_LCeGPFOx0

Hey Shane.
I don't know how I could have missed this post.
"
Shane...This is extremely condescending brother. What are you trying to infer when you say "most eductated persons" Modern scholarship " and "Modern scholarship" ?
Right off the top, I assume you mean "educated" people. It's just so disheartening when people have this "I'm better then you uneducated slugs" attitude in any discussion. It's more so when were supposed to be Christians.
What you are in effect saying is, you know better than us backwoods, ignorant folk. And I'm done with any further discussion with you brother.
The really ironic thing is that if you take that attitude to it's logical conclusion, then the very idea of any "God" of "miracles" is totally anti-intellectual.
Take care, and I truly pray that your eyes may be open.

John

 

[Madad21]

Not a liar. You implied the parable was "less" if it was not a literal event. I challenged this view as Jesus gave many parables which were not literal events but carried the full weight of his teaching and doctrine.

Your right not a liar, what was it, here it is I would apparently go up to Jesus and say "This parable is just a tale and holds no relevance at all to what is my reality today"
Because that is obviously what I was saying.
.

Not hard. I am willing to assume for the benefit of our discussion that Jesus may be speaking of life after death - lets test that shall we and further test what this agony is depicting?
when your ready


Well - lets get one thing straight.

Our assumption is that this is refering to a parable when in fact Luke's gospel does not say explicitly that it is a parable. Of course neither is this the case with the unjust steward.

Both stories begin in exactly the same way: "There was a certain rich man . . ."

Do we agree in both cases we are speaking about the Pharisees?

And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. (Luke 16:14)

Can we agree on this?

Yes

 

[Bronzesnake]

A word to my sincere brothers.
The fact that a person would sign up and engage in discussions under false pretenses, tells us a lot about what kind of man/woman, we are dealing with.
If I were, for example, a J.W. and I wanted open, honest discourse with real Christians, I would have to make my "faith" known.

The only reason for anyone to hide their "faith" is because they are insecure about the legitimacy of that "faith"

John

 

[Madad21]

If this is a literal event I am bewilded by some of the absurdedies.

"In hell the rich man lifted up his eyes, and seeth . . . Lazarus in Abraham's bosom . . . Send Lazarus that he may literally dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue."

Do disembodied souls have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms?

And what good, it may pertinently be asked, would one drop of water do in a place of unquenchable fire?

Surely Jesus "designed" details such as these so that they would impress hearers with their absurdity.

Would you agree?

Yet three times He illustrates that the man is in agony. So when does it go from absurdity to reasonable, is it absurd that Jesus would illustrate in such a way the horrific circumstances this man finds himself in, so by proxy is the agony and torment itself absurd too?
What motivation would Jesus have in highlighting the mans agony and torment?

 

[Madad21]

I agree! Did you notice that the story says nothing about the rich man being wicked or the beggar good? Actually the former is pictured as showing quite unselfish love for his brother?

It would only seem that way if we did not know the cultural background and therefore the cultural context of the day and by extension the parable. The Pharisees say they have Abraham as their father, but yet in what I would agree as part of the absurdity (to the Pharisee) we see Lazarus not the rich man in the bosom of father Abraham. The Pharisees may not align themselves with the rich man, because generally Pharisees were not rich but they were as you rightly say covetous and the belief was that the rich man was blessed while the poor man was in rebuke.
I

 

[Madad21]

You are drawing out the lesson for them and us.

If our basis for belief in disembodied immortality is placed in this parable we have the most fragile and moveable foundation imaginable.

The question all Christians must ask before approaching this parable is why did Jesus couch his lessons in terms of an utterly false idea?

The answer will enlighten the most discerning believers.

Lookup

What false idea?
and how is it a movable fragile foundation?
oh, is he gone already. LOL

The challenge is still there if anyone wants to have a crack.

 

[KingJ]

The teaching of an eternal hell were the unsaved are tortured for eternity is a very sick and twisted teaching that I would think God the Father would take quite personally to those who teach it when the bible is clear that the lake of fire and blotting out is the punishment for the unsaved . The fact many teach this evil is mind boggling to me knowing that God loves his children and wants all to be saved , what kind of Father would torment his children for eternity , Satan would and this is his teaching not Gods .

The bible is clear there is a hell. God loves the evil so much that He makes an eternal home for them. He tolerates them for all eternity. We see Jesus's respect for the devil simply by looking at how He spoke to him in Matt 4. Or considering how He answered the request of the fallen angels He cast into pigs. God does certainly not hate those who hate Him.

So, the issue is not God hating but rather the reality of creation hating Creator.


Just side thoughts:

1. There is not a single scripture where God has tortured His enemy.
2. All sinners have no inner peace / are in inner torment. Add increased IQ and resurrected mind and we have clear torment brought on from ones own sins.
3. God is just. Each person in en route to hell will be rewarded according to their works Rom 2:6. This implies / hints at temporary suffering.
4. Universalism is a nice thought, but in reality it would be evil of God to over ride His intelligent creations' free will to hate Him.

IMHO, the message on hell must be simply that God separates lambs and wolves. Wolves will live with wolves and lambs with lambs.

 

[Madad21]

2. All sinners have no inner peace / are in inner torment. Add increased IQ and resurrected mind and we have clear torment brought on from ones own sins.

Amen!!

True words

 

[Madad21]

Last night I witnessed some very graphic photography showing the brutal execution of children not much older then 2 or 3 years old, there was nothing quick about it, it was prolonged and savage, and without any remorse whatsoever.
They looked exactly like the kids you see mum with in the supermarket, in their puffy jackets and woolly mittens, as someone loved them enough to be worried about the cold. Chubby faced cute kids with no idea what this hell is going on around them.

[sharedmedia=gallery:images:515]

Dont tell me there's no hell.
Dont tell me that compete annihilation is all these un-remorseful savages will get
Dont tell me that they will eventually be forgiven and let in to the kingdom
Dont tell me that there will be no justice.

Prov 24:12 Shall not he render to every man according to his works?'​

​

2 Thessalonians 1:6 “God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you”​

 

[KingJ]

Last night I witnessed some very graphic photography showing the brutal execution of children not much older then 2 or 3 years old, there was nothing quick about it, it was prolonged and savage, and without any remorse whatsoever.
They looked exactly like the kids you see mum with in the supermarket, in their puffy jackets and woolly mittens, as someone loved them enough to be worried about the cold. Chubby faced cute kids with no idea what this hell is going on around them.



Dont tell me there's no hell.
Dont tell me that compete annihilation is all these un-remorseful savages will get
Dont tell me that they will eventually be forgiven and let in to the kingdom
Dont tell me that there will be no justice.

Prov 24:12 Shall not he render to every man according to his works?'​

​

2 Thessalonians 1:6 “God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you”​

This is so evil!

 

[williemac]

there is more than one word in original language that is translated "hell" in English. In the story of the rich man and Lazerus, the word used was Hades. In Math.10:28 on the other hand, it was Gehenna. in that passage, Jesus speaks of a situation where the body dies but not the soul, and another, where both are destroyed in Gehenna. It is agreed by most that this is a reference to the lake of fire, where it is said that death and Hades will be cast there. Whereas in the parable in question, Hades is spoken of as a place of torment (mental anguish...NOT torture), but we can see elsewhere that Gehenna is spoken of as a place of destruction.

There is a fundamental problem in passing off the story of the rich man and Lazerus as not real on the basis of it being a mere illustration or parable. And here it is: All of the parables have something in common. They speak of a situation that while may not be real, it is always something that is really possible. And the m.o. is to use the familiar to explain the unfamiliar. Therefore it is erroneous to claim that because it is a parable, the scenario presented in it must be unfamiliar. If that were the case, Jesus would be breaking protocol in using a totally unfamiliar and impossible situtation to explain something also unfamiliar. Not one parable of Jesus used a situation that could not possibly have happened. A person could find or lose a coin. A person could bury a talent. A man could hire people different parts of the day and pay them the same wage...and so on and so forth. These are all real and possible situations. So if the story of the rich man and Lazerus is truly a parable, it should also use a real and possible situation, not a totally made up and impossible one.

In conclusion, Hades is real. There will be and is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Jesus said so, when the body dies but not the soul. BUt He also said that only those who partake of Him by faith will live forever (John 6:10,51) (John 3:16). Therefore we can understand that Hades is not a forever situation. It will be thrown into the lake of fire. In that place, which was created for the devil and his angels, human souls will be destroyed. Humans are not immortal. Angels and demons may well be, but Adam and Eve were denied access to the tree of life lest they take and eat of it and live forever (Gen.3:22). Living forever is not automatic in the case of humans. So in the debate about hell, we must acknowledge the different things that the translators have rendered as hell, and also acknowledge their different purpose.

 

[hayden]

Last night I witnessed some very graphic photography showing the brutal execution of children not much older then 2 or 3 years old, there was nothing quick about it, it was prolonged and savage, and without any remorse whatsoever.
They looked exactly like the kids you see mum with in the supermarket, in their puffy jackets and woolly mittens, as someone loved them enough to be worried about the cold. Chubby faced cute kids with no idea what this hell is going on around them.



Dont tell me there's no hell.
Dont tell me that compete annihilation is all these un-remorseful savages will get
Dont tell me that they will eventually be forgiven and let in to the kingdom
Dont tell me that there will be no justice.

Do you think that your sin is better than their sin? Have you earned your salvation? Are you saved by your works, or by the faith which you have received of Him? Why is it that you condemn men to death, when Christ gave his life for you, and all men, while all were yet in sin? Christ did not give himself for the righteous, but that the sinner might be made righteous.

You speak of justice. If God were to execute justice on us all, we would all be condemned to death. The 'smallest' sin against God is no better than the 'greatest'.

I do not wish that those men be condemned to an eternal torment. I hope that they will come to the same knowledge of the truth that I will come to, and that they come to the same repentance of their evil ways, and that God shows them the same mercy. Because I know that I have done nothing more than they have to deserve the mercy I have been shown in my life.

 

[Madad21]

Do you think that your sin is better than their sin? Have you earned your salvation? Are you saved by your works, or by the faith which you have received of Him? Why is it that you condemn men to death, when Christ gave his life for you, and all men, while all were yet in sin? Christ did not give himself for the righteous, but that the sinner might be made righteous.

You speak of justice. If God were to execute justice on us all, we would all be condemned to death. The 'smallest' sin against God is no better than the 'greatest'.

I do not wish that those men be condemned to an eternal torment. I hope that they will come to the same knowledge of the truth that I will come to, and that they come to the same repentance of their evil ways, and that God shows them the same mercy. Because I know that I have done nothing more than they have to deserve the mercy I have been shown in my life.

You without merit accuse me of somehow elevating myself above others, by which I havent done anywhere in what I said, :huh:

If your referring to this comment;

Dont tell me that they will eventually be forgiven and let in to the kingdom

Have you ever heard of Universalisim where they believe that eventually everyone will go to heaven regardless of beliefs. even those who did not believe and did not repent.?

Im an not unjustified in my rebuke of such actions and I am not wrong that the victums of such crimes can trust that God who they have place their faith in will repay
Which was evident by The two Scriptures I provided demonstrate how I veiw this situation,. How did you miss that in your rant?
you have taken what I said out of context so you can get up on your righteous soap box and rebuke me for venting my frustration at those who would say that there is no hell.

How come it is when new people come her most of them start by creating unnecessary conflict, you havent even made the common courtesy of introducing yourself.

 

[hayden]

...you havent even made the common courtesy of introducing yourself.

My apologies. Hello! My name is Hayden, I am 24, I live in Melbourne, Australia.

You without merit accuse me of somehow elevating myself above others, by which I havent done anywhere in what I said, :huh:

Those were not rhetorical questions. I'm just curious how you would answer them based on the comments you made.

If your referring to this comment;
Have you ever heard of Universalisim where they believe that eventually everyone will go to heaven regardless of beliefs. even those who did not believe and did not repent.?

I think you misunderstand the teaching. It's not that all will be saved regardless of what they believe, but rather that all will come to a knowledge of the truth, and thus be saved.

Im an not unjustified in my rebuke of such actions and I am not wrong that the victums of such crimes can trust that God who they have place their faith in will repay
Which was evident by The two Scriptures I provided demonstrate how I veiw this situation,. How did you miss that in your rant?
you have taken what I said out of context so you can get up on your righteous soap box and rebuke me for venting my frustration at those who would say that there is no hell.

Let's say a man kills your child, and several years later the love of God is revealed to him, and he repents of his evil ways. Is there forgiveness for this man? I saw no room for it in your comments.

I have no problem with your rebuke of their deeds; I am not for the torture and killing of children, or any. But you are not justified in your condemnation of them. We are to love our enemies, and those who spitefully use us. I would not wish evil on those whom I love, so if I find myself wishing evil on any man, then I have not followed that commandment.

Regarding the verses you quoted: For one, I know that I have troubled others, and for it I have been payed back trouble. I have never killed anyone, but I do regard my sin to be just as evil as if it were I holding one of those guns. I cannot possibly justify my sin being better. But if the means of our justification is faith, then why would you not rather hope for the day those men will have like faith? And if we hope for that, how much more our God who is good, and who has helped us with our unbelief?

How come it is when new people come her most of them start by creating unnecessary conflict...

Because there is no greater driving force to join a forum than to reply to a comment that you strongly disagree with. According to me, the conflict started with your post. And I don't think it was unnecessary, but to the end that we might both gain more understanding. I hope that it is not taken as offense to you personally.

PS: Sorry for the empty quotes

 

[Madad21]

Hi Hayden the topic of the thread is do you believe in hell, It is not "do you believe bad people can be forgiven"

if you wish to use my comments out of context to display some sort of condescending and incredibly annoying righteous prowess, then whatever blows your hair back.

The whole point behind the introduction thread is so that you can introduce yourself to us and tell us your beliefs, by not doing so you are acting dishonestly,
James 4:17 "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin."

If you have no deception to hide then please by all means tell us your beliefs and your purpose for being here. So we can know who you are and enjoy your company more fully.

But sadly until I do, I will have nothing more to do with you.

Psalm 101:7
No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.

Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Have a nice day

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Last night I witnessed some very graphic photography showing the brutal execution of children not much older then 2 or 3 years old, there was nothing quick about it, it was prolonged and savage, and without any remorse whatsoever.
They looked exactly like the kids you see mum with in the supermarket, in their puffy jackets and woolly mittens, as someone loved them enough to be worried about the cold. Chubby faced cute kids with no idea what this hell is going on around them.



Dont tell me there's no hell.
Dont tell me that compete annihilation is all these un-remorseful savages will get
Dont tell me that they will eventually be forgiven and let in to the kingdom
Dont tell me that there will be no justice.

Prov 24:12 Shall not he render to every man according to his works?'​

​

2 Thessalonians 1:6 “God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you”​

In fact there's no stronger argument for the existence of hell than the evil in this world that demands rectification. I've made this argument many times.

People instinctively know there's a hell, even Jews who say they don't believe in it, but refer to it often and the reason is there is a balance of justice that man cannot dispense.

Let's say we capture a serial pedophile and killer. He confesses to stalking, kidnapping, sexually abusing, and then murdering scores of small children and burying them out in the woods. Asked more as a rhetorical question, is it possible for our justice system to adequately punish this man for his crimes? Even if we execute him, even if we make that execution drawn out and cruel, he has only one life to offer in recompence for the many lives he destroyed.

IT ISN'T POSSIBLE FOR MAN TO METE OUT THE AMOUNT OF JUSTICE NEEDED TO RECTIFY THE EVIL MAN IS CAPABLE OF!

And what's more, EVERYBODY KNOWS IT. There is a balance of justice that only the Almighty is capable of imposing.

By the way, I love this clip from the movie "Changeling". For once, Hollywood got it exactly right, and being produced by Clint Eastwood, I'm not surprised. This man did exactly what I just described, murdering countless boys he kidnapped and being caught, tried, and convicted. Even though he "made things right" with a minister, he comes to realize the awful truth that God has not forgiven him, will not forgive him, even if he sought it diligently with tears, for what he did cannot be forgiven. See the terror that overtakes him when he stares right into the abyss of eternal damnation into which he's about to be shoved. This is a man who knows there is a hell and knows for a fact he's going there and no prayer can save him from it: THIS IS WELL WORTH WATCHING!

[video]http://youtu.be/c4Qap03dvMo[/video]

 

[Madad21]

as a rhetorical question, is it possible for our justice system to adequately punish this man for his crimes? Even if we execute him, even if we make that execution drawn out and cruel, he has only one life to offer in recompence for the many lives he destroyed.

IT ISN'T POSSIBLE FOR MAN TO METE OUT THE AMOUNT OF JUSTICE NEEDED TO RECTIFY THE EVIL MAN IS CAPABLE OF!

And what's more, EVERYBODY KNOWS IT.

Good point, there is only so much we can do to the flesh, and by the same token if we take revenge ourselves we in a way try to override Gods authority and the penalty exacted from the bad guy could end up being payment in full.
If we pray for him and try to forgive him (not what he did) then Gods vengeance against him if he remains unrepentant will be the full measure of Gods wrath.

 

[williemac]

In fact there's no stronger argument for the existence of hell than the evil in this world that demands rectification. I've made this argument many times.

People instinctively know there's a hell, even Jews who say they don't believe in it, but refer to it often and the reason is there is a balance of justice that man cannot dispense.

Let's say we capture a serial pedophile and killer. He confesses to stalking, kidnapping, sexually abusing, and then murdering scores of small children and burying them out in the woods. Asked more as a rhetorical question, is it possible for our justice system to adequately punish this man for his crimes? Even if we execute him, even if we make that execution drawn out and cruel, he has only one life to offer in recompence for the many lives he destroyed.

IT ISN'T POSSIBLE FOR MAN TO METE OUT THE AMOUNT OF JUSTICE NEEDED TO RECTIFY THE EVIL MAN IS CAPABLE OF!

And what's more, EVERYBODY KNOWS IT. There is a balance of justice that only the Almighty is capable of imposing.

By the way, I love this clip from the movie "Changeling". For once, Hollywood got it exactly right, and being produced by Clint Eastwood, I'm not surprised. This man did exactly what I just described, murdering countless boys he kidnapped and being caught, tried, and convicted. Even though he "made things right" with a minister, he comes to realize the awful truth that God has not forgiven him, will not forgive him, even if he sought it diligently with tears, for what he did cannot be forgiven. See the terror that overtakes him when he stares right into the abyss of eternal damnation into which he's about to be shoved. This is a man who knows there is a hell and knows for a fact he's going there and no prayer can save him from it: THIS IS WELL WORTH WATCHING!

[video]http://youtu.be/c4Qap03dvMo[/video]

You have got to be kidding. What he did cannot be forgiven? Justice was served at Calvary. Jesus said that all sin would be forgiven. Dont go telling us the lie that there is a sin that cannot be forgiven. There is nothing so terrible that God has determined Calvary to not be enough. He showed us the severity of His wrath and judgment against sin so that we could appreciate the tremendous act of love in His absorbing His wrath upon Himself at the cross. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself and is pleading with the world to respond in this reconciliation. (2Cor.5:19,20)Even the vilest offender can respond and be reconciled. God is not interested in retaining the human race. His plan is to do away with it and have for Himself a new creation. Forgiveness of sin is just the doorway to this re creation. We are all in the category of the vilest offender prior to coming to Jesus. If a person fails on any one point of the law, James declared him to be found guilty of the whole law. Therefore if a person has any sin at all, it is no different than the worst sin...the one you clamin cannot be forgivien. What a croc.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Williemac, God is not a slot machine that gives you a predictable outcome when you pull the lever. He is a sentient being, and no person can come to repentance unless he wills them to do so. There is another side to the beatitude "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy" and that other side is what happens when one acts utterly without mercy toward their fellow man. Your huffing and puffing comes to nothing because in the end, it's God who makes that decision, regardless of your misguided post that puts that decision into man's hands. It's the one area where Calvinists are more right than they are wrong. St. Paul mused that God had mercy upon him because he acted in ignorance when he persecuted Christians. It's an important point that shouldn't be missed, that even Paul believed the decision to show mercy was God's, and apart from that act of volition, Paul would never have been saved. It's not that different than how a judge passes sentence that varies depending on whether the offender showed signs of remorse and redemption or whether he callously and thoughtlessly inflicted death and destruction on his fellow man. That's because God has given man his own sense of justice, having created man in his own image.

So yes, the scenario I posed is very possible, that God withheld mercy to a merciless individual. It's his right to do so because he isn't a slot machine.