Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Your beliefs seem to be focused on selected scriptures. And it is not just this thread but other threads and posts.While all of that might be true. What has any of that got to do with what I said?
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Your beliefs seem to be focused on selected scriptures. And it is not just this thread but other threads and posts.While all of that might be true. What has any of that got to do with what I said?
I understand and agree. Nonetheless, because Christians like to debate OSAS online, I have abbreviated our point of view by using the present participle. "God is saving me."But God is not saving you.
He has saved you.
Now he is sanctifying you.
for by one offering he has perfected forever (eternally saved) those who are being sanctified.
and even the sanctification is Gods work in us..
You say this like I'm the only one. But what did you expect to see? If the topic is eternal security, I will undoubtedly narrow my choices to relevant passages. But unlike some, my view is not based on single verses taken out of context. In my answer to @Eternally Grateful I summarized the arguments of three different apostles, each having dealt with the issue. You can go and read them in context and make up your own mind. James 1, 1 Peter 1, Romans 5.Your beliefs seem to be focused on selected scriptures. And it is not just this thread but other threads and posts.
Salvation is simple and secure.I understand and agree. Nonetheless, because Christians like to debate OSAS online, I have abbreviated our point of view by using the present participle. "God is saving me."
Borrowing from Aristotle, I think, Theologians like to talk about "potential" vs. "actual" salvation. OSAS debate speaks about salvation in the present tense, "I am saved" because our salvation is both potential and guaranteed by God under certain conditions.
Some Christians don't believe our salvation is potential; they believe that our salvation is provisional. According to the doctrine of "prevenient grace," God has done all that he can to save us, but salvation remains contingent on the individual to believe and obey etc.
Both sides of the OSAS debate are wrong in the assumption that salvation is either provisional or potential. I believe in actual salvation, which takes place over the course of a lifetime. Sanctifying me is saving me. And so I say, "I am being saved." There is no such thing as gaining then losing salvation. Rather, either God is saving me or he isn't.
OSAS is part of the New Age Movement. OSAS is not a belief that Christ or the Apostles taught, it is not what the history of Christianity taught.....You do not see it in Christian history until relatively recently. As part of Calvinism it is just part of a false religion, the man was nutz.You say this like I'm the only one. But what did you expect to see? If the topic is eternal security, I will undoubtedly narrow my choices to relevant passages. But unlike some, my view is not based on single verses taken out of context. In my answer to @Eternally Grateful I summarized the arguments of three different apostles, each having dealt with the issue. You can go and read them in context and make up your own mind. James 1, 1 Peter 1, Romans 5.
Finally, I don't think I said anything that can legitimately be construed as "new age."
lol, what do you think you are doingNow you are just arguing..... of which I refuse to participate.
You cannot change God's word. Amen
I don't think Calvin was alive during the New Age Movement. But the question is, did you give my posts a fair hearing or did you simple hear what you wanted to hear? Just asking. Read my latest post to @Eternally Grateful where I argue that the premise of OSAS debate is wrong on both sides of the debate.OSAS is part of the New Age Movement. OSAS is not a belief that Christ or the Apostles taught, it is not what the history of Christianity taught.....You do not see it in Christian history until relatively recently. As part of Calvinism it is just part of a false religion, the man was nutz.
That I believe is where confusion comes in..I understand and agree. Nonetheless, because Christians like to debate OSAS online, I have abbreviated our point of view by using the present participle. "God is saving me."
Borrowing from Aristotle, I think, Theologians like to talk about "potential" vs. "actual" salvation. OSAS debate speaks about salvation in the present tense, "I am saved" because our salvation is both potential and guaranteed by God under certain conditions.
Some Christians don't believe our salvation is potential; they believe that our salvation is provisional. According to the doctrine of "prevenient grace," God has done all that he can to save us, but salvation remains contingent on the individual to believe and obey etc.
Both sides of the OSAS debate are wrong in the assumption that salvation is either provisional or potential. I believe in actual salvation, which takes place over the course of a lifetime. Sanctifying me is saving me. And so I say, "I am being saved." There is no such thing as gaining then losing salvation. Rather, either God is saving me or he isn't.
I believe he has me on ignore,. which is why he does not respond to my posts..I don't think Calvin was alive during the New Age Movement. But the question is, did you give my posts a fair hearing or did you simple hear what you wanted to hear? Just asking. Read my latest post to @Eternally Grateful where I argue that the premise of OSAS debate is wrong on both sides of the debate.
In any case, Jesus and the apostles all agreed that God saves us, we don't save ourselves.
OSAS is based on what God did for us.OSAS is part of the New Age Movement. OSAS is not a belief that Christ or the Apostles taught, it is not what the history of Christianity taught.....You do not see it in Christian history until relatively recently. As part of Calvinism it is just part of a false religion, the man was nutz.
Well said.That I believe is where confusion comes in..
The truth is
1. I am saved, from the penalty of sin. I have been given eternal life. and I will not perish (called Justification)
2. I am being saved, from the power of sin, here is the sanctification process. which will be ongoing until we leave this world. (Called sanctification)
3. I will be saved from the ability to sin, (called glorification).
the OSAS argument is based on point 1. and has nothing to do with point 2 or 3. point 1 is a completed act.. Point two is ongoing as we run the race. and point three is assured because of point 1.
The non OSAS or NOSAS argument mixes point one and two together as 1. and say they are both required for point three..
Calvinism goes back to the 16th century.I don't think Calvin was alive during the New Age Movement. But the question is, did you give my posts a fair hearing or did you simple hear what you wanted to hear? Just asking. Read my latest post to @Eternally Grateful where I argue that the premise of OSAS debate is wrong on both sides of the debate.
In any case, Jesus and the apostles all agreed that God saves us, we don't save ourselves.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.then take it literally
In no place in John did Jesus say Baptism is required for salvation.
For something so important. God left it out
it means it is not required.
You misinterpreting a few passages does not help.
Just take Jesus literally
He who BELIEVES is not condemned
He who does NOT BELIEVE is condemned already..
no mention of water baptism because water baptism is not required
but we are the ones not taking God literally... lolJohn 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Okay. So what?Calvinism goes back to the 16th century.
I do not agree with OSAS. I have never supported it. The debate centers around the question of whether or not a person can lose their salvation once they have been saved. It is taken as a given that a person is saved at a specific moment in the past.And I did read your post and you and I have talked before and unless something has changed you essentially believe in OSAS.
I don't know what I said that would lead you to conclude that I supported OSAS. I don't for the reason I just articulated. Salvation is not something that takes place at some time in the past. It is mistaken to say, "I once was a sinner but now I am saved." No one can lose what they don't already have. One is not "saved" (past tense) until the 7th trumpet.And from the post that you got my soup sandwich response, it still sounds like OSAS,
As far as both sides of the debate....if you believe in OSAS, you are wrong....if you believe that a person can lose their salvation easily....you are wrong.
No one is saved past tense.The first question is, were you saved to begin with.....if accepting Christ did not change you then....then you were not saved to begin with. As I have said many times....Christianity is not a club you sign up for and go on as you were. If you were not changed....you were not saved.
If salvation is something I workout, then I am in the process of being saved.If you believed in Christ and repent and were water baptized and were changed....you were saved. From there the rest is walking with Christ....a follower that obeys Him. Workout your salvation with fear and trembling, as the scripture says.
I agree with what you say here. From my perspective, the items you mentioned, i.e. honesty and intent, are markers of those whom God is saving. If I am being saved by God, I will be honest, forgiving, loving, righteous, a lover of truth, seeking first the kingdom, accepting Jesus as my Lord, believing his promises etc. Such things are markers of those whom God is saving.And like I always say, your journey with Christ is a matter of honesty and intent. Salvation is secure with honesty and intent. And it is correct that Christ saves us, we do not save ourselves. But we have to participate and we can work our way to Hell. We have to be honest with Christ, when we ask forgiveness our honest intent has to be not to do the same sin over and over agan.....lifestyles sin will not be forgiven....because you are playing Christ for a fool. And I say "you and you are" but I do not meaning you specifically.
None of us are perfect and the plan of salvation was not designed for the perfect.
Lets sort this out. The average Christian that is trying to dig a little deeper into the facts about Christianity and the Bible are at a disadvantage. When unknowingly they are looking at the Christian Greek instead of the Koiné Greek of the time periodOkay. So what?
I do not agree with OSAS. I have never supported it. The debate centers around the question of whether or not a person can lose their salvation once they have been saved. It is taken as a given that a person is saved at a specific moment in the past.
Unfortunately, the debate question is based on an incorrect premise. The Bible does not teach that salvation is a one-time event or that it occurs simply by meeting certain conditions. While some people believe that salvation is an offer and that accepting it saves a person instantly, this is not the Biblical perspective.
I don't know what I said that would lead you to conclude that I supported OSAS. I don't for the reason I just articulated. Salvation is not something that takes place at some time in the past. It is mistaken to say, "I once was a sinner but now I am saved." No one can lose what they don't already have. One is not "saved" (past tense) until the 7th trumpet.
No one is saved past tense.
If salvation is something I workout, then I am in the process of being saved.
I agree with what you say here. From my perspective, the items you mentioned, i.e. honesty and intent, are markers of those whom God is saving. If I am being saved by God, I will be honest, forgiving, loving, righteous, a lover of truth, seeking first the kingdom, accepting Jesus as my Lord, believing his promises etc. Such things are markers of those whom God is saving.